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Subject: Has RftG made Puerto Rico obsolete for you? rss

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ackmondual
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fameros wrote:
I wonder if there are many former PR players out there who lost interest in the game after being presented to RftG. Are you one of them?


RftG = multiplayer solitaire
PR = multiplayer chess

I agree that RftG sets up ALOT quicker.... shuffling the cards is a pain, as is setting up the homeworlds and counting out the VP. However, in PR, u need to count out colonists, VP chips, AND stack the buildings correctly, which does end up taking more time

Also, I've seen RftG get compressed into a small-ish tuckbox. With PR's boards, it has a much larger storage/carry footprint.

I play RftG about once a month, and ALOT on Keldon's AI. I can play back to back games, or more if others are in the mood. My desire to play PR has been reduced to once every 3 to 6 months or so.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/5240437#5240437
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7379896/rftg/index.html

I will say that the 10th anniv. edition of PR was a cheesy way to revitalize interest in the game, but it works. Speaking of which, PR is ugly by many standards. It's a perfectly functional game, but there's no art on any of the buuildings. They're just a monotone color, and what art IS available is merely adequate. While the 10th anniv. edition is gorgeous, has nice upgrades to components, and includes both exp... it's not an aples to apples comparison at $100 list price wow Speaking of which, I will also say that I much prefer RftG with all 3 exp + goals, but do play games with just exp #1 with newbies.

.

veenickz wrote:
PR is one of my first game, and i still love it even after i start playing RftG. both are on my top 3 list. well i dont really think they're that similar after all (unlike San Juan with RftG, very similar)


I'd argue the contrary... PR and Race have more similarities than Race and SJ.

PR and Race have a mechanic where you convert goods to VP. Granted, the Harbor (5/3)* in the SJ exp sorta does that, but 1), it's only 3 buidings in the deck... far too few to come out enough across alot of games and 2) you're getting cards AND VP out of it, which kinda changes things.
There are very solid reasons to produce corn/novelty goods over coffee/alien tech besides that the former pair are cheaper to build than the latter (blue goods have many VP consume powers specifically or generically for that color. Corn is VERY EASY to produce since it doesn't require a companion building). In SJ, there's only the Black Market.

Race and SJ are similar by virtue that they use the mechanic of cards as buildings, goods, or to pay for buildings, and all of the other similarities of card games therein.

For kicks and giggles, SJ and PR are similar mostly in theme, and much less so in gameplay.

* 5 cost/3 VP

.

stuartfinlay wrote:
dkearns wrote:
No. PR didn't need any help.

Couldn't agree more. PR is completely eclipsed by RftG, a better game with more variety that plays in a shorter amount of time. It didn't help that I played RftG first and PR seemed like a dull knockoff with action denial.
FWIW, I played PR first, then RftG. That didn't help either. I still prefer RftG.

.

looleypalooley wrote:
d10-3 PR is a boardgame and has a boardgame feel. Race is a cardgame and has a cardgame feel. This is a pretty subjective criteria, and may be not obvious to some, but is apparent in my group.
PR is barely a board game. You really don't need the boards. You could just lay out the buildings in columns of 4 to indicate the quarry discounts. This sort of sorting and organization works just fine in games without a board like Dominion. For the plantations/quarries, just form a tableau that goes up to 12 tiles. "Tableau" seems to be an ugly word for PR players, but include a board for RftG, and we wouldn't be calling that a "tableau" either. Same thing with the purchased buildings, keeping in mind that 10-cost buildings count as 2. The boards having role reminders is more prominent to me.
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ackmondual wrote:
I will say that the 10th anniv. edition of PR was a cheesy way to revitalize interest in the game, but it works. Speaking of which, PR is ugly by many standards. It's a perfectly functional game, but there's no art on any of the buuildings.

I must agree on that: PR would never win a beauty contest, probably would not even classify. The Anniversary Ed. on the other hand seems gorgeous from the photos, but when I think of the games you can now buy with $90...

ackmondual wrote:
PR is barely a board game. You really don't need the boards. You could just lay out the buildings in columns of 4 to indicate the quarry discounts. This sort of sorting and organization works just fine in games without a board like Dominion. For the plantations/quarries, just form a tableau that goes up to 12 tiles. "Tableau" seems to be an ugly word for PR players, but include a board for RftG, and we wouldn't be calling that a "tableau" either. Same thing with the purchased buildings, keeping in mind that 10-cost buildings count as 2. The boards having role reminders is more prominent to me.

Absolutely. For me at least, the similarities between the two games were very apparent, behind their very different themes and presentation. That is why I thought that, for some players at least, the more practical RftG could potentially retire PR from the table.
 
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Tom Lehmann
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fameros wrote:
For me at least, the similarities between the two games were very apparent, behind their very different themes and presentation.

PR is certainly a great game, but I do think it is possible to over-emphasize RFTG's similarities to it:

* PR has no "military path" option. Both are economic games, but -- after building up sufficient Military and finding enough military worlds -- a RFTG military player can often ignore the economics.

* PR has -- for better or worse -- less luck. Due to the high variance in what cards you may draw in RFTG, managing your luck with Explore actions and good card flow is important.

* PR has less need/ability to affect game tempo. Settling new plantations does not hasten the end of the game. PR doesn't have "2x Captain" to hasten draining the VP pool. A PR round sees 0-1 building tempos (except for the 2x size buildings at the end of the game). A RFTG round can see 0-2 tableau tempos (more in 2PA or when using the expansions). RFTG can also see very fast VP depletion from the pool if 2+ players start calling Consume 2x. Managing game tempo is important in both games, but it is both harder and more crucial in RFTG (imo).

But, as others have noted, the biggest difference is in the player interaction: PR is very much a "pressure your LHO" game. You exert control on the game by constraining your next opponent's options so that he or she is more likely to choose actions that will benefit you. RFTG is much more about bluffing and "leeching": trying to predict and take advantage of your opponents' actions.

Some players prefer RFTG's "poker-style" reading/bluffing/leeching interactions to PR's "chess-like" pressuring interaction. Others prefer the reverse. And some like both interaction styles, at different times and in different games. The last is why many players have both of these games in their collections.

(Still other players like "targeted" player interaction and prefer other games to either PR or RFTG.)
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Bill Eldard
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Puerto Rico still gets played more than Race for the Galaxy in our group.

I prefer Puerto Rico , but RftG is also fine game. I think PR is more interactive.
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Tom Lehmann
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Race for the Galaxy » Forums » General
Re: Has RftG made Puerto Rico obsolete for you?
"Interaction" is a tricky concept in gaming. I think there are lots of different types of interaction. In addition to the "chess-like" pressuring interaction, bluffing "poker-style" interaction, and targeted "take-that" / attacking interactions I note above, there is also:

* Co-operation
* Negotiation / Deal Making
* Auctions
* Betting
* "Who bells the Cat?" (a staple in Munchkin and many Cheap-Ass games)
* Blocking
* Racing (just seeing how fast the leader is going can affect play)
* Send back to Start
* King of the Hill
* Altering the Rules

and many more. I personally find it very hard to say that any one of these mechanics is inherently "more" or "less" interactive than others.

For example, co-operation may seem at first to be more interactive, but many co-op games suffer from the strong, vocal player dominating the other players problem...
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Tom Lehman in the house. An honor, sir.

Tom Lehman wrote:
PR has no "military path" option. Both are economic games, but -- after building up sufficient Military and finding enough military worlds -- a RFTG military player can often ignore the economics.

After adding TGS to the base game, I now prefer the military path and it always a joy to draw New Sparta as my starting world (playing 2PA).

Tom Lehman wrote:
PR has less need/ability to affect game tempo. Settling new plantations does not hasten the end of the game. PR doesn't have "2x Captain" to hasten draining the VP pool. A PR round sees 0-1 building tempos (except for the 2x size buildings at the end of the game). A RFTG round can see 0-2 tableau tempos (more in 2PA or when using the expansions). RFTG can also see very fast VP depletion from the pool if 2+ players start calling Consume 2x. Managing game tempo is important in both games, but it is both harder and more crucial in RFTG (imo).

It would be interesting to watch you play your own game, as your language describing it brings to mind playing a musical instrument. There must be some recorded plays here on BGG or somewhere else, I guess.

Tom Lehman wrote:
But, as others have noted, the biggest difference is in the player interaction

This must have been observed before, but in my view, player interaction in RftG is a function of experience. A novice will barely see its possibilities. A seasoned player will explore it to win. When I began playing the game against Keldon's AI, sometimes I could not believe his victories. After a while, I started noticing that my careless phase selections were helping the AI and speeding his victory.

And by the way, any news about Alien Artifacts? whistle
 
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To me, PR is more accessible as a game when compared to RftG. I can teach a table of noobs PR in 15 minutes and they will "get it". Not so with RftG.

Both are excellent games, however, and I don't nearly get to play either often enough.

On to Vikings for tonights game!
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I first played RFtG, then SJ, then PR.

Really played the heck out of Race, getting all the way up to Brink of War and getting a good feel for the strategy spaces (although I am not a top-tier player).

San Juan felt like playing Race weighed down with millstones. If Race was an actual footrace, then SJ is running with cinderblocks tied to one's legs. If Race is driving a Ferrari, then San Juan is driving a 1980s station wagon. Examples: Only can score VP during "builder" phase, cannot affect game tempo since only 1 build/round, dependency on 6-cost buildings for victory leading to ridiculous denial strategies, etc.

Puerto Rico is a MUCH better game than SJ, and gets played a lot more with friends than Race, simply because it is so much easier to teach. Within 1 game, people seem to understand what's going on, whereas with Race, this takes 5-10 games. I believe this has more to do with needing to gain intimate knowledge of the deck more than the iconography.

What bugs me about PR is the painful produce/shipping mechanic. The person who calls craftsman is at such a disadvantage, and one can establish a fantastic "produce engine" only to be able to ship nothing due to the "one color good per ship" and "limited space on ships" features. This irks me to no end. I feel I have much more control of my own destiny in Race.

Of course, YMMV.
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ackmondual
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Closest thing in PR to pushing for the end of the game is near end of Mayor phase, arranging your colonists such that there are more open slots, causing more colonists to be on the ship, and thus depleting the colonist pool faster. I suppose u can deliberately choose or NOT choose 1 of the 3 roles to hasten or prolong the game, but that's sort of different in my books.


shake in one game, when someone who was "passively forced to play" realized that was an end game condition, she kept choosing Mayor EVERY SINGLE ROUND shake
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fameros wrote:
It would be interesting to watch you play your own game, as your language describing it brings to mind playing a musical instrument. There must be some recorded plays here on BGG or somewhere else, I guess.

There was a PBF of Tom vs the forum here.
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entranced wrote:
There was a PBF of Tom vs the forum here.

Thanks for the link! thumbsup
 
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theright555J wrote:
I first played RFtG, then SJ, then PR.

This is the route i've taken as well. 1800 plays of race now, 10 SJ, 3 PR. :P I rate them 10/10, 6/10, 5/10.

So contrary to most, i think perhaps race may have kind of made PR obsolete for me. Though really it's Agricola that obsoleted PR.

I agree with others that race and PR are completely different types of games. Comparisons to chess definitely don't endear me to the game, i'm not a chess fan. I like hidden information and randomness in my games, the latter making for high replayability. PR and SJ feel bland.


Tangential humor: while looking up my plays of these games, check out my 8th recorded play of race, the first play after having initially given up on the game: Pre-set learning hands. We didn't have the rulebook on hand nor an experienced player, and hence messed up a few things. Major one was not beginning with the starting world in play.

Hahaha, i've never heard of anyone doing that. New Sparta would have to play New Military Tactics to even get started!
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Nick Bolton
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No - but Yahtzee gets played a lot less now.
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Julian Wasson
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Not at all. PR and RftG are more than different enough.

San Juan, on the other hand, is just RftG for babies. It could be useful if you're playing with children or new/non gamers but otherwise RftG is better by every metric I can think of, and it's similar enough that I feel like you can directly compare them.
 
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Robert Papp
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I've played San Juan but never really got into it. It just didn't grab my attention.
We still play PR on a regular basis and RftG has become a family favorite! My son (14) will often pull it out and badger his sisters to play with him (and me of course - no badgering required for me to play!)
 
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Just call me Erik
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Puerto Rico isn't obsoleted by anything, as we still enjoy it. Race for the Galaxy and San Juan are both obsoleted by Glory to Rome.
 
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ackmondual
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unixrevolution wrote:
Puerto Rico isn't obsoleted by anything, as we still enjoy it. Race for the Galaxy and San Juan are both obsoleted by Glory to Rome.
To me, if we're gonna play PR, I'd MUCH RATHER play GtR. IMO, the role selection and leeching was done much better in GtR.

RftG is still different enough for me to keep playing.
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Patrick
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Not at all. Race for the Galaxy sucks, as opposed to Puerto Rico which is still awesome all these years later.
 
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dragon of blood wrote:
Not at all. Race for the Galaxy sucks, as opposed to Puerto Rico which is still awesome all these years later.


You do realize that your statement is an argument against Puerto Rico, if only by being associated by someone who makes vacuous "Duh, A good, B bad!" statements.

(For the record, I like PR just fine, but the massive variety of cards in RftG makes it much more replayable.)
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As a side note, yesterday I played San Juan for the first time. It was also the last time, and let's leave it at that.
 
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Rainstar wrote:
dragon of blood wrote:
Not at all. Race for the Galaxy sucks, as opposed to Puerto Rico which is still awesome all these years later.


You do realize that your statement is an argument against Puerto Rico, if only by being associated by someone who makes vacuous "Duh, A good, B bad!" statements.

(For the record, I like PR just fine, but the massive variety of cards in RftG makes it much more replayable.)


RftG could have a million cards, and it would still be awful, boring, overrated garbage.
 
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Jade Youngblood
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Comments as extreme as this cannot be taken seriously. Both games are different and excellent.

Not liking something, doesn't make it awful garbage.
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No, being overrated and boring does.

As an aside, I don't do milquetoast opinions/statements, (which seem to be the norm around here) not my fault if you can't dig it.
 
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dragon of blood wrote:
As an aside, I don't do milquetoast opinions/statements, (which seem to be the norm around here) not my fault if you can't dig it.


milquetoast: weak, timid, or bland.

Your comments have been neither weak nor timid, but they are completely bland. Loud yes, but devoid of content. People on BGG generally respond very well to negative reviews--criticism can shed valuable light on a topic. But you have left out any reason for your discontent, and have simply shown us the internet version of a temper tantrum. Saying something is overrated or boring conveys zero information about the game itself, it only expresses your reaction to it. If you have something of substance to say about RftG, we would love to hear it. Otherwise, quit wasting everyone's else time with your whining.

(And for the record, I'm really trying to help you out here, in a non-milquetoast way, and it's not my fault if you can't dig it.)
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