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Subject: Wookie Nav and Trench Run rss

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Can Wookie Nav allow a second engagement on the death star? Even though the death star is not "an objective."
 
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Patrick Brennan
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Yes it can. The key phrase in Trench Run is "engaged" so any effect that talks about engaging an objective (like Wookiee Nav), or refers to an engaged objective (like Hit And Run), can apply to the Death Star dial, but any effect that targets an objective directly (ie which doesn't used "engaged"/"engaging", like Rebel Assault) can't - because they target objectives and Trench Run specifically says the Death Star dial is not an objective.

Because unopposed damage and fate cards (in edge battles) occur with an "engaged objective", their effects are applied.

Because the dial is not turned into an objective, you can't play enhancements on it that "enhance an objective".

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Josh
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PBrennan wrote:
Yes it can. The key phrase in Trench Run is "engaged" so any effect that talks about engaging an objective (like Wookiee Nav), or refers to an engaged objective (like Hit And Run), can apply to the Death Star dial, but any effect that targets an objective directly (ie which doesn't used "engaged"/"engaging", like Rebel Assault) can't - because they target objectives and Trench Run specifically says the Death Star dial is not an objective.

Because unopposed damage and fate cards (in edge battles) occur with an "engaged objective", their effects are applied.

Because the dial is not turned into an objective, you can't play enhancements on it that "enhance an objective".



This is total armchàiring on my part, but is that official? I would read Trench run as allowing you to engage the death star, but still not even being able to use 'engaged objective' effects on it. It may be engaged, like an objective, but it is specifically still not an objective. I would say it is never an engaged objective. It is something else being engaged, like an objective.
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Patrick Brennan
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There's no official FAQ been released yet, but that's the way it was explained to us in play-test. If it's since changed at all, we'll know once the FAQ comes out.
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Josh
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PBrennan wrote:
There's no official FAQ been released yet, but that's the way it was explained to us in play-test. If it's since changed at all, we'll know once the FAQ comes out.


Fair enough. Just listening to the gripes about it here makes me think the less you can enhance it the more it becomes a delaying tactic and less a hard-to-combat victory.
 
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Josh Woods
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If it's not treated as an objective for the purposes of engaging, what's stopping you from engaging it multiple times in a turn, even without Wookie Nav?
 
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Patrick Brennan
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That was the point I made above I thought ... that it *is* treated as an objective for the purposes of engaging.
 
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Jens Melinder
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Shadrach wrote:
PBrennan wrote:
Yes it can. The key phrase in Trench Run is "engaged" so any effect that talks about engaging an objective (like Wookiee Nav), or refers to an engaged objective (like Hit And Run), can apply to the Death Star dial, but any effect that targets an objective directly (ie which doesn't used "engaged"/"engaging", like Rebel Assault) can't - because they target objectives and Trench Run specifically says the Death Star dial is not an objective.

Because unopposed damage and fate cards (in edge battles) occur with an "engaged objective", their effects are applied.

Because the dial is not turned into an objective, you can't play enhancements on it that "enhance an objective".



This is total armchàiring on my part, but is that official? I would read Trench run as allowing you to engage the death star, but still not even being able to use 'engaged objective' effects on it. It may be engaged, like an objective, but it is specifically still not an objective. I would say it is never an engaged objective. It is something else being engaged, like an objective.


This question popped up at the FFG fora, but I can't seem to post there at the moment so I'll bump this thread instead.ninja

If what you write is true, you wouldn't even be able to put damage on it through the use of blast damage icons since they too specify "engaged objective". Then what is the point with the mission?

My read of the text "engage the Death Star dial as though it were a dark side objective" is that the dial can be attacked during the conflict phase as an objective and that it is treated as an objective through-out the engagement.

With this interpretation using Wookiee navigator is still a bit uncertain. "the same objective" is what the card specifies, but even though the dial was attacked "as though it were a dark side objective" I guess one could claim that it shouldn't work. I think it should work.

In any case, it really needs to be clarified, it makes a big difference. It's not only Wookie navigator that could be affected, also Fate cards that target the engaged objective run the risk of not working.
 
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Scott Egan
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If the Trench Run does not make the Death Star the "engaged objective" then there is no way for units to deal damage to it, as they deal their blast damage to the "engaged objective", when striking. The Trench Run has no text to overrule the striking or icon rules.

What that means for Wookie Nav, I dunno. But any card or rule talking about the "engaged objective" specifically has to work if the Trench Run card functions at all
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Patrick Brennan
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Star Wars: The Card Game » Forums » Rules
Re: Wookie Nav and Trench Run
Exactly. Wookiee Nav talks about "engaging", therefore it can apply to a Trench Run'd Death Star dial, as per my initial post.
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Richard Dickson
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Trench Run lets you engage the dial like an objective, but specifically states that this does not make it an objective. If it'a not an objective, it can't be an engaged objective. The card is a specific alteration of the rules for the purpose of letting you damage the dial via the engagement rules. That's it.
 
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Garrett
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PBrennan wrote:
Because unopposed damage and fate cards (in edge battles) occur with an "engaged objective", their effects are applied.


So in the section of the rules under unopposed damage it says:
rule book wrote:
If at least one attacking unit has survived, and there are no surviving defenders, this is an unopposed engagement and the attacking player deals one bonus damage to the engaged objective card. This is known as an unopposed bonus.


I put "card" in bold because I'm wondering your opinion, Patrick. Does this preclude unopposed damage from going on the Death Star dial since it's not a card, or was this word just thrown in because most objectives are cards? I know your word isn't necessarily official, but I'm curious what you think.
 
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Scott Egan
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DailyRich wrote:
Trench Run lets you engage the dial like an objective, but specifically states that this does not make it an objective. If it'a not an objective, it can't be an engaged objective. The card is a specific alteration of the rules for the purpose of letting you damage the dial via the engagement rules. That's it.


And yet nowhere on the card does it say how it can be damaged only that it can be engaged.
 
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Richard Dickson
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ScottieATF wrote:
DailyRich wrote:
Trench Run lets you engage the dial like an objective, but specifically states that this does not make it an objective. If it'a not an objective, it can't be an engaged objective. The card is a specific alteration of the rules for the purpose of letting you damage the dial via the engagement rules. That's it.


And yet nowhere on the card does it say how it can be damaged only that it can be engaged.


Damage comes at the end of an engagement when the committed units focus to strike.
 
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Matt Lernout
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This is a poorly worded card and in need of FAQ treatment.

The obvious thematic intent is to allow blast damage. For that to happen as per the rules, it would have to be considered an "engaged objective", unless there is an exception created by a card. Trench Run itself does not provide that exception purely reading it as worded - it allows for engagement, adds a victory condition check upon damage, but does not explicitly state how damage can be assigned.

To me, it makes complete sense that anything referring to an "engaged objective" would work on a Trench Run'd dial. But there is no current ruling to clearly explain it - we have to make a logic jump to arrive there.
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Richard Dickson
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Let me pose this question: Objective cards have the word "Objective" on them. It's a trait. If a card that says, "Target Force User" or "Target Character" has to be applied to a unit with the "Force User" or "Character" trait, doesn't it make sense that "Target Objective" or "Engaged Objective" has to apply to a card with the "Objective" trait? And since Trench Run doesn't add that trait to the dial, those cards can't affect it?
 
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Garrett
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DailyRich wrote:
Let me pose this question: Objective cards have the word "Objective" on them. It's a trait. If a card that says, "Target Force User" or "Target Character" has to be applied to a unit with the "Force User" or "Character" trait, doesn't it make sense that "Target Objective" or "Engaged Objective" has to apply to a card with the "Objective" trait? And since Trench Run doesn't add that trait to the dial, those cards can't affect it?


That makes sense to me, although I would change the word I italicized at the end of your statement. It's not just cards that have effects on objectives. Blast damage is not a card, but it, too, requires an engaged objective, so by your reasoning, blast damage wouldn't apply to the Death Star dial.

Edit: And that's why I think that Target of Opportunity was meant to apply as well as blast damage (which we all seem to think was intended with this card). We've said it before, but it's obvious we need clarification on this card since the conversation keeps going back and forth.
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Richard Dickson
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Well, I still maintain that "You may engage the Death Star dial as though it were a dark side objective" allows you to damage it, or else what's the point of engaging it? Why do you engage any objective except to damage it? But that doesn't make it an engaged objective, because the card goes on to say "(it is not an objective)".

It might have been better worded as "You may engage and damage the Death Star dial following the rules for engaging objectives, but it does not become an objective and is not affected by card effects that target objectives." Which is what I think it's actually saying, but worded much more clearly.
 
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Drew Dallas
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DailyRich wrote:
Objective cards have the word "Objective" on them. It's a trait.


No they don't have the objective trait. The only place Objective is on the Objective cards is the part that indicates card type, just like units and the other cards.
 
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Jacob Russell
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I don't understand how this is even an issue.

The Wookiee Navigator card states: "After this unit survives and engagement as an attacker, you may engage this same objective an additional time."

While the Trench Run card states: "You may engage the Death Star dial as though it were a dark side objective [it is not an objective]. ..."

Obviously the bold is mine.

It is not an objective so no. But if you were playing the Sith deck you could certainly engage "Heart of the Empire" twice which would be more powerful than using it to attack the dial and you could use all the cards that effect "objectives" exclusively which you cannot do against the Death Star dial... and they have the same health.

So even if you were right and could attack it twice, which to me it's clear you can't it still wouldn't be as powerful as the Rebel's attacking Heart of the Empire. So it would be fine. To me this is more of a long shot type card and that's assuming you get it out early because once one objective is destroyed and another damaged even a little bit it's not worth it.
 
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Scott Egan
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DailyRich wrote:
ScottieATF wrote:
DailyRich wrote:
Trench Run lets you engage the dial like an objective, but specifically states that this does not make it an objective. If it'a not an objective, it can't be an engaged objective. The card is a specific alteration of the rules for the purpose of letting you damage the dial via the engagement rules. That's it.


And yet nowhere on the card does it say how it can be damaged only that it can be engaged.


Damage comes at the end of an engagement when the committed units focus to strike.


Please go read the rules on striking and icons.

You will see it clearly written that units strike and deal blast damage to the "engaged objective". The Trench Run card contains no modification on that rule at all. It only modifies what you can engage and gives a damage limit. It does not address how units strike or icons work. So if the Trench Run is not meant to be treated as the "engaged objective" then it doesn't function.
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Jacob Russell
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ScottieATF wrote:

Please go read the rules on striking and icons.

You will see it clearly written that units strike and deal blast damage to the "engaged objective". The Trench Run card contains no modification on that rule at all. It only modifies what you can engage and gives a damage limit. It does not address how units strike or icons work. So if the Trench Run is not meant to be treated as the "engaged objective" then it doesn't function.


Then it does nothing at all and has zero effect? Throw it away I guess along with the rest of the set. That seems to be an dis-ingenuous interpretation of the spirit of the card. Its clear to me that the "[it is not an objective]" means that all other effects that say objective don't work and you just apply damage from blast damage icons and walk away. Done deal.

This one of the problems with BGG to my mind, rules lawyering gone way, way too far.
 
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Casey Hughes
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Regardless of what you think the spirit of the card is, there is obvious disagreement on how it is supposed to be played. Until we can get an official answer that disagreement will remain.

And rules lawyering is not exclusive to BGG. Arguements just like this rage all across the interwebs and will continue to do so as long as two people can read the same thing two different ways.
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Scott Egan
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JonJacob wrote:
ScottieATF wrote:

Please go read the rules on striking and icons.

You will see it clearly written that units strike and deal blast damage to the "engaged objective". The Trench Run card contains no modification on that rule at all. It only modifies what you can engage and gives a damage limit. It does not address how units strike or icons work. So if the Trench Run is not meant to be treated as the "engaged objective" then it doesn't function.


Then it does nothing at all and has zero effect? Throw it away I guess along with the rest of the set. That seems to be an dis-ingenuous interpretation of the spirit of the card. Its clear to me that the "[it is not an objective]" means that all other effects that say objective don't work and you just apply damage from blast damage icons and walk away. Done deal.

This one of the problems with BGG to my mind, rules lawyering gone way, way too far.


Why are you assuming that one case of being able to damage the "engaged objective" works on the Trench Run, but other do not. There is nothing on the Trench Run that says that one case is the exception, so why are you making the assumption. Couldn't I just as easily say that the undefended bonus is the only case where damaging the "engaged objective" works. There is no reason to make that assumption and there is no card text that alters the rules on striking or icons. If in one case you treat the Trench Run as the engaged objective, with no card text telling you to do so, then there is no logical reason to not do so in other cases that mention the engaged objective. Because you have no reason to jump to that conclusion other then that how you think it works, but that not how games work.
 
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Jens Melinder
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JonJacob wrote:
[q="ScottieATF"]
This one of the problems with BGG to my mind, rules lawyering gone way, way too far.


Rules lawyering? Why is one interpretation "rules lawyering" and the other one not? Most of us arguing don't know how FFG thinks the card should be played, we present different interpretations.

Personally I think it's perfectly logical that the Dial is treated as an objective during the entire engagement. No-one is trying to argue that blast damage should not be applied, we're saying that - for the rules to be consistent - all effects that target an "engaged objective" should be fair game.

This is apparently also the way FFG told the playtesters how the card is supposed to be played (see PBrennan's comments above).
 
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