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Star Wars: The Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: An Unbiased Ruling and Justification for Trench Run rss

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Alexander Gopoian
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I say this is unbiased, because I don't care either way what the official ruling will be. We get the rules and we make our decks to work within them. So given that and knowing that an eventual official ruling might change how I play, I still figure we need to be as objective as possible in figuring out the rules.

The logic:

Card Text: "Enhance the Death Star dial. This enhancement cannot be targeted. You may engage the Death Star dial as though it were a dark side objective (it is not an objective). If the dial has 10 or more damage, the light side wins the game."

Trench Run specifically tells us that the Death Star dial meets the requirements to engage it as though it were an objective.

An "Objective" is a card type, NOT a trait.
An "Engaged Objective" is not refering to a card and is also NOT a trait. It's referring to anything that has met the requirements to be engaged as an objective and is being attacked. This is given by the attacking player and it lasts until the end of that engagement.

In Conclusion:
If a card says "Objective" alone it's referring to an objective card.
If a card says "Engaged Objective" it's referring to the target of the current engagement.



Wookie Navigator Ruling

The card reads: "After this unit survives an engagement as an attacker, you may engage this same (engaged) objective an additional time this phase."

The trigger to the effect is the word "After", so the moment Wookie Navigator is considered to have "Survived", the over-ruling effect is now in play before the engagement where the Death Star dial is still considered the "Engaged Objective" is over.

In the second part of the card the word "same" implies the redundant word "(engaged)" as only the objective that was currenly engaged would be considered the "same". The word "objective" on this card is not referring to a card and its card type.

In Conclusion:
You may use Wookie Navigator to attack the Death Star dial twice.



The balance of Trench Run is in the fact that a person using it either has to focus all of their attacks on one place to be effective… ether separate attacks on original objectives or all on the Death Star Dial. Either the DS defends like normal or they defend with all of their people in one place. The LS picking away at the Death Star dial with secondary attacks can be seen just as if they were doing the same to a 2nd and 3rd regular objective.

If the DS can't shut down one card by prioritizing their attacks on the Wookie Navigator or event/fate cards, then they wouldn't be able to take out the other units doing damage in the first place let alone their "clones" in the second attack.

I used to feel like I lost even when I won with the LS simply because it would get close to 12 on the dial. Now I realize that it's as valid a win as the DS using effects to turn the dial up or doing direct objective damage like with the game ending Superlaser Blast on a third/fourth objective. The dial is a timer for the DS winning, and each damage needed to win is the timer counting down till the LS wins. If the DS can't control the game enough to defend a single objective from a 10 damage timer of 1-3 damage, then hopefully they can earn their 1-3 damage first by destroying LS objectives.

The game comes down to seeing who can manipulate their unique "Win Timer" the best.
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My reading:

Trench Run specifies that the Death Star dial may be engaged as though it were an objective, but clearly states that it is not an objective. Anything that targets an objective cannot target the Death Star dial. The only functionality that Trench Run provides is that it allows you to select the Death Star dial as the engaged objective when declaring a conflict.

Wookie Navigator allows you to engage the same objective twice, but the Death Star dial enhanced with Trench Run is not an objective. Wookie Navigator's text should not apply in this instance.
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Alexander Gopoian
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Ripshawd wrote:
My reading:

Trench Run specifies that the Death Star dial may be engaged as though it were an objective, but clearly states that it is not an objective. Anything that targets an objective cannot target the Death Star dial. The only functionality that Trench Run provides is that it allows you to select the Death Star dial as the engaged objective when declaring a conflict.

Wookie Navigator allows you to engage the same objective twice, but the Death Star dial enhanced with Trench Run is not an objective. Wookie Navigator's text should not apply in this instance.


"same objective" = "engaged objective" = "the target of this engagement"

"Engaged objective" is not a card.

It is only referring to the card when it states "objective" or "objective card".

Death Star dial is an engaged objective, but it isn't an objective.
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xregardsx wrote:
"same objective" = "engaged objective" = "the target of this engagement"

I don't know where you're getting this from. "Same objective" on Wookie Navigator refers to the objective currently being engaged. The Death Star Dial enhanced with Trench Run is not an objective, so Wookie Navigator has nothing to target with his ability. Yes, the Death Star dial is being engaged as if it were a Dark Side objective, but that does not make it an 'engaged objective', as it is not an objective.

EDIT: Responding to your edit - The Death Star dial is not an 'Engaged Objective'. It is engaged as if it were an objective, allowing you to start a conflict and deal blast damage to the Death Star dial.
 
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CD Harris
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xregardsx wrote:
In Conclusion:
You may use Wookie Navigator to attack the Death Star dial twice.


I agree with your logic. The "it is not an objective" text seems to me to be there to prevent cards like Rebel Assault from being used on the dial, not cards like WN.
 
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Sergio Perez
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I would say three things obviously affect the DS dial. Blast icons from resolving strikes, fate cards such as Target of Opportunity (which deal damage to the engaged objective -- the same thing that blast icons do) and unopposed bonus damage (same concept -- all three of these things are framework events or substeps thereof that deal damage to the engaged objective. If one doesn't work, none work. If one works, all work.

Those three should be without controversy.

Hit and Run seems that it should work on the DS dial as well since it has essentially the same text, "deal 1 damage to the engaged objective." However, I think one could make an argument though that it's not an inherent component of the engagement, so it could be excluded from the sources that may deal damage to the DS dial (enhanced by Trench Run).

Wookiee Navigator falls in line with Hit and Run, I think, for the reasons you explained. But how goes the fate of Hit and Run, so goes the fate of Wookiee Navigator, for the reasons I explained. FAQ will clarify which effects work though, but for now, it's just not clear.

Whatever the case, I just hope that the FAQ clarifies what sources of damage work against the TR enhanced DS dial via clarification or modification of game phase structure rather than simply by edict. If they just go and make some arbitrary ruling like blast icons work and unopposed bonus work against the DS dial but Target of Opportunity doesn't, I would be highly disappointed.
 
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Alexander Gopoian
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Star Wars: The Card Game » Forums » Rules
Re: An Unbiased Ruling and Justification for Trench Run
Ripshawd wrote:
xregardsx wrote:
"same objective" = "engaged objective" = "the target of this engagement"

I don't know where you're getting this from. "Same objective" on Wookie Navigator refers to the objective currently being engaged. The Death Star Dial enhanced with Trench Run is not an objective, so Wookie Navigator has nothing to target with his ability. Yes, the Death Star dial is being engaged as if it were a Dark Side objective, but that does not make it an 'engaged objective', as it is not an objective.

EDIT: Responding to your edit - The Death Star dial is not an 'Engaged Objective'. It is engaged as if it were an objective, allowing you to start a conflict and deal blast damage to the Death Star dial.


Both of our logic works... as the card does not specify what an engagement overall does.

My logic saying that an engagement makes the target an "engaged objective" and the card saying it's not an objective is there for things that TARGET an objective. Wookie Navigator doesn't target anything as it simply designates that you can engage the same place you just did. When writing the cards, they didn't take the other into consideration given whichever came first.

To say that "same objective" isn't the same as "currently engaged target" is saying that they should have worded Wookie Navigator as "same (engaged) target" and if they didn't write it that way you're trying to imply it was simply not supposed to work on Trench Run.

That then would imply that any card that said "engaged target" would work on the DS dial. Not a single card in the game has this wording. That doesn't mean Wookie Navigator wasn't meant to work.

I explained how Trench Run was balanced... and that balance extends to the use of Wookie Navigator.

They call the target of the engagement "engaged objective" on every single card. This means "engaged/same objective" could be synonymous with "this engagement's target regardless of whether it is an objective alone or not". A playtester for the game even said that Wookie Navigator, target of opportunity, and unopposed damage worked. If the card says you can engage it as though it were an objective and the official rules call the engaged objective the "engaged objective" or just "objective" in every reference to the target that's engaged... it's safe to say that engaging the target labels the target as "engaged objective" regardless... otherwise every ruling in the official rules regarding engagements that says "(engaged) objective" would be just as invalid as you're saying Wookie Navigator is when attacking the dial.

"Declare Objective:
The active player declares which one his enemy's current objective cards he will engage.
"

This allows the attacker to consider the dial as "one of his enemy's current objective cards".

"Resolving Combat Icons by Type:
Blast Damage: If the striking player is attacking he deals an amount of damage to the ENGAGED enemy OBJECTIVE equal to the * strength of the striking unit.
"

Using your logic... no damage would go through from Unit Blast Damage.

"Reward Unopposed:
If at least one attacking unit has survived, and there are no surviving defenders, this is an unopposed engagement and the attacking player deals one bonus damage to the ENGAGED OBJECTIVE card."


Using your logic... the "Reward Unopposed" step would be completely ignored as bonus damage would be impossible... making attacking with a Unit with no Blast Damage icons completely pointless if all defending units were focused let alone unit's with blast damage icons doing no damage either way.

The problem here is that "Engaged Objective" is what overall needs an official definition. That alone would clear up this and future issues for people that don't understand this logic when it's explained.

Either way... my logic stands more soundly... as yours would break the game completely.
 
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Sergio Perez
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I think it's important to recognize, as Alexander pointed out, that a blast damage icon simply represents a rule:

"If the striking player is attacking he deals an amount of damage to the engaged enemy objective equal to the * strength of the striking unit."


Rather than having all of that text printed on every unit intended to operate in the same manner, a simple blast icon is used instead. But again, those icons directly represent that rule.

So ask yourself this: If that text, the rule itself, were written on the unit card, would you then declare that it could not damage the DS dial because it used the word objective?
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Alexander Gopoian
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Surge1000 wrote:
I think it's important to recognize, as Alexander pointed out, that a blast damage icon simply represents a rule:

"If the striking player is attacking he deals an amount of damage to the engaged enemy objective equal to the * strength of the striking unit."


Rather than having all of that text printed on every unit intended to operate in the same manner, a simple blast icon is used instead. But again, those icons directly represent that rule.

So ask yourself this: If that text, the rule itself, were written on the unit card, would you then declare that it could not damage the DS dial because it used the word objective?


I don't think the damage icons represent the text of the rule. The icons are simply something to be referenced by the rule. The only contradiction here is between his logic and the official rules.

Point being... he can't pick and choose when "(engaged) objective" is valid... okay when regarding damage within the damage and unopposed bonus steps, but not regarding anything else even though both use the same implied wording. The Wookie Navigator changes the rules of the game for a moment, overruling the "Declare Objective" step's restriction on what meets engage requirements.

If they go in favor of only Unit Blast Damage... they're not stating the originally intended rules... they're changing them. As already explained, Trench Run is balanced and therefore doesn't need rule changing. Both sides have OP'd combos... that's why they're considered "combos" worth noting in the first place.

Will every combo with unclear wording (to the average person) be challenged by those afraid of facing it... especially when it makes their favorite deck not as effective as it is otherwise?

Considering human nature and bias... I'll guarantee you that's a huge YES.
 
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Sergio Perez
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The damage icons and the rules that they represent must be interchangeable. Similarly with protect, shielding or targeted strike, those terms all represent their associated rule.

I'm not really sure how you can get around that idea. They don't really represent their respective rules, they simply reference them? Maybe. That seems really confusing though. I'm not even sure what that means.

Nonetheless, I agree that you must treat the DS dial as an engaged objective for the entirety of the engagement and not just single out one particular component of the engagement that gets to treat the DS dial as the engaged objective, at least not without card errata or a change to the rules.

Again, don't be surprised if the ruling on Trench Run is arbitrary just to settle the issue. It may not have strong RAW support and may simply be an edict, like A & B affect the DS dial and nothing else.
 
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Christopher Hill
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The Trench Run card says 'engage as an objective'. To me this is specific. Any game action that engages an objective is applicable to the Death Star with Trench Run attached. Any action that does anything else to an objective is not applicable to the Death Star when Trench Run is attached.

I am trying to keep my interpretations simple. To me LCG's in general are complex enough without adding additional layers.
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Matt Dawkins
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Because I know everyone's been waiting on this...

Star Wars: The Card Game, Official FAQ, pg. 7 wrote:
Because the Death Star dial is explicitly not an
objective, card effects that interact with objectives
do not interact with the Death Star dial. When
engaged as an objective, the Death Star dial may be
damaged by framework game effects only. This is
limited to blast damage and unopposed damage.
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Akolotu Moeloa
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So the ruling is in. All cards that target objectives/engaged objectives in any way are out. Damage from blast icons and unopposed damage is the ONLY way to destroy the DS dial.

Glad we cleared that up.
 
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Ryan Hanson
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So considering the ruling, is trench run any good?

I'm inclined to think that it's still a pretty good card if drawn early (hopefully 1st or 2nd round) especially if you have the right sort of deck built to exploit it. It's a problem when you don't draw it early and have already invested in damage on other objectives but at least with 2 force icons it is at least good to burn on an edge battle.
 
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