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Android: Netrunner» Forums » Rules

Subject: Recurring Creds and Darwin. Start of Turn order rss

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Konstantinos Thoukydidis
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Ok, question that came up because of the OCTGN automations timing.

I have a cyberfeeder which I didn't use last turn and Darwin in play. My new turn begins. Can I trigger Darwin's ability to get +1 STR before cyberfeededer reloads, thus having a recurring credit for this turn?

Answer from Lukas here. In Short: No, you can't
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Wesley Kinslow
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Great question!
 
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Marcus Aurelius
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You beat me to it. I only saw in FAQ 1.1 that recurring credits refill "when your turn begins". We need a clarification on when exactly does this happen. If it's one of the "when your turn begins" of the same level, then I guess it can be manipulated into being used twice in the same turn, which feels a bit awkward.
 
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Brian H
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There was a discussion somewhere about this recently. I believe actions that are performed "simultaneously" (as in, the same trigger condition) can be resolved in any order.

So the answer is yes, I think. However, the Cyberfeeder credit would have had to have been left over from the previous turn to be used.
 
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Tim Meng
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That situation will probably suffer the same fate as the Personal Workshop/Parasite ruling. Thus, if Cyberfeeder already has a credit when you begin 'when your turn begins' effects, it will not trigger a reload, so even if you spend it for something else that happens 'when your turn begins,' it still won't reload.

However, that's just me using logic and deductive reasoning based on past rulings. I hear that doesn't always pan out.
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Mr Deltaz
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I wasn't aware of that ruling for PW and Parasite. If that is the case I am guessing Cyberfeeder wouldn't reload.
 
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Will Frank
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trekkienz wrote:
That situation will probably suffer the same fate as the Personal Workshop/Parasite ruling. Thus, if Cyberfeeder already has a credit when you begin 'when your turn begins' effects, it will not trigger a reload, so even if you spend it for something else that happens 'when your turn begins,' it still won't reload.

However, that's just me using logic and deductive reasoning based on past rulings. I hear that doesn't always pan out.


What Tim said. I highly suspect this will be the ruling.
 
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James W
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I don't think this will work.

It's a common misconception that "When your turn begins" applies to an entire phase. However, it's more of a global event that gets broadcast to all subscribers and carries the entire game state with it.

"When your turn begins" can only happen once per turn.

We'll see if this turns out differently but to be consistent with a past ruling, I don't think it will.
 
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Tim Silver
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I think "simultaneously" is the key word here. Imagine that when the game looks for 'when your turn begins' triggers, it takes a snapshot of the game state, and then allows you to pick and choose which trigger to carry out next. In this case, I think Cyberfeeder wouldn't show up on the snapshot, as it still had a credit on it when the game was looking for triggers. Thus it would not reload when used on Darwin's trigger.

Just me being logical. Lukas might think differently.
 
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Dirk Tebben
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"When your turn begins" is a single event, not a sequence, so WYTB effects cannot trigger one another or happen in a set order; they all happen at once.

See Parasite/Personal Workshop ruling: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/942277/personal-workshop-par...
 
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Brian H
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The difference with PW/Parasite is that it had to do with the state of the "install" of Parasite, whereas here Cyberfeeder and Darwin are both already installed.

I think this is more like the deal with Aesop's/Wyldside, which works.
 
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Steven Tu
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I seem to remember that "when your turn begins" is a single action - not a phase - as such you can't condtionally activate one thing over another... Or something.

A ruling would be nice yes I'm sending it off
 
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Brian H
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But you apparently can choose the order with Aesop's and Wyldside. So...yeah, needs a ruling I guess.
 
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FirstName LastName
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It seems like it depends on whether the "Cards with recurring credits which are at their maximum do not gain additional credits" test is checked before firing the triggers or as a part of resolving the trigger.
 
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Dirk Tebben
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MavericK96 wrote:
The difference with PW/Parasite is that it had to do with the state of the "install" of Parasite, whereas here Cyberfeeder and Darwin are both already installed.

I think this is more like the deal with Aesop's/Wyldside, which works.


True. I was thinking Cyberfeeder's recurring credit would not have been used, therefore would not refill, but that may not be the case. Needs a ruling.
 
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Mr Deltaz
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The more I think about it the more I can see it go either way @_@
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Magnus Poitier
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Unless I'm mistaken, you can't use a Cyberfeeder credit to boost Darwin?

I mean that's how I read it, since Cyberfeeder says you can only use that recurring credit to install a Virus program or to use an icebreaker.

Since you're not installing Darwin and you're not using it......

I mean, I get the gray area that you can use Cyberfeeder's credit to boost an Icebreaker's strength during an ice encounter, and so using it at beginning of the turn to boost Darwin's strength seems similar, I can understand how people view it as legal...

But to me, using an icebreaker equates using it in an encounter with an ice during a run.

Might just be me though
 
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Brian H
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I think the general consensus was that since you are "using an icebreaker program", you can use the credit for it. Similar in that you can use Cyberfeeder credits for Femme bypasses. Could need a ruling also, but it makes sense to me that you would be able to use them.
 
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Marcus Aurelius
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@alphasyndrome
Femme fatale special ability uses the same wording "when X happens, you may spend 1c to do Y", and it has been added to the 1.1 FAQ that you indeed can use recurring credits for "using icebreakers" for that ability. The case is pretty clear I think. Although with FFG, you never know. Lukas previously already gave a rulling different from the one in the FAQ once.
 
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Alvin Simon
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Before "the turn begins" effects at 2.2 there is a window to use paid abilities at 2.1

You can use that window to boost Darwin with the Cyberfeeder, 2.2 comes and turn begins effects fires and reloads Cyberfeeder. You may now use the Cyberfeeder credit again.

Parasite and PW is not that different. If you want to double load Parasite you have to pay 1 credit during 2.1, it gets a virus token IF you have Grimoire, and then it gains a second token at beginning of turn at 2.2
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Ben Finkel
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ArcticSnake wrote:
Before "the turn begins" effects at 2.2 there is a window to use paid abilities at 2.1

You can use that window to boost Darwin with the Cyberfeeder


Can you? If the turn hasn't begun, then Darwin can't be fed yet.
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Brian H
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Azeltir wrote:
ArcticSnake wrote:
Before "the turn begins" effects at 2.2 there is a window to use paid abilities at 2.1

You can use that window to boost Darwin with the Cyberfeeder


Can you? If the turn hasn't begun, then Darwin can't be fed yet.


Good point, probably not...still doesn't clarify the real issue, though, which is whether or not you can choose the order of simultaneously-triggered actions (I believe you can, but a ruling might say otherwise).
 
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Matt - Conduit23
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ArcticSnake wrote:
Before "the turn begins" effects at 2.2 there is a window to use paid abilities at 2.1

You can use that window to boost Darwin with the Cyberfeeder, 2.2 comes and turn begins effects fires and reloads Cyberfeeder. You may now use the Cyberfeeder credit again.

Parasite and PW is not that different. If you want to double load Parasite you have to pay 1 credit during 2.1, it gets a virus token IF you have Grimoire, and then it gains a second token at beginning of turn at 2.2


Darwin isn't a paid ability.
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Alvin Simon
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mdanuser wrote:
ArcticSnake wrote:
Before "the turn begins" effects at 2.2 there is a window to use paid abilities at 2.1

You can use that window to boost Darwin with the Cyberfeeder, 2.2 comes and turn begins effects fires and reloads Cyberfeeder. You may now use the Cyberfeeder credit again.

Parasite and PW is not that different. If you want to double load Parasite you have to pay 1 credit during 2.1, it gets a virus token IF you have Grimoire, and then it gains a second token at beginning of turn at 2.2


Darwin isn't a paid ability.


OMG you are right. I shouldn't be commenting with too much alcohol in the system. hahaha.
 
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Steven Tu
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Android: Netrunner » Forums » Rules
Re: Recurring Creds and Darwin. Start of Turn order
Answer GET! That was quick.

From Lukas:

You cannot use the Cyberfeeder's credit to pay for Darwin and then refill it; all required 'upkeep' abilities like the refilling of recurring credits happen immediately upon the turn beginning, and cannot be interspersed with other effects.


Db0 please edit OP, and I'll add this to the FP questions roundup.
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