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Android: Netrunner OCTGN gaming guild» Forums » General

Subject: Warning: OCTGN developers planning to break A:NR with next update rss

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Konstantinos Thoukydidis
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They've decided to enforce GUID randomness and since I'm using serialized GUIDs in order to work with websites like cardgamedb.com, this will break A:NR, unless I and all all peripheral websites do extensive re-work to avoid it and that would still break all existing decks and websites. This is also the case for most other FFG games.

I've tried to explain why this is a bad idea. I've tried to suggest alternatives, but they won't listen to reason. The sanctity of the GUID needs to be maintained regardless of necessity, and since they hold the reigns of development, all my objections are being brushed aside and I'm being ridiculed.

As this is yet another case of the developer making decisions which break my games and then being unwilling to reconsider because he doesn't have to suffer, I am making this my stand.

Unfortunately, the extreme arrogance of the main developer in the past year, and the continuous way he's giving me grief has made this a matter of principle for me. Given the efforts I've put into the OCTGN community, I am loathe to be beholden to one such as Kelly and suffer his continuous ridicule and horrible decisions.

I do now know how long A:NR will continue to work. Kelly has already threatened that if I bypass his GUID enforcement, he's prepared to ban it from OCTGN and he's already banned me from the OCTGN IRC channel. I WILL bypass those enforcements if possible.

Sorry to break these bad news suddenly, but for me, enough is enough! I've been promoting and developing for OCTGN without any reward since before Kelly even came onboard, and I do not need any more grief on something that is supposed to be pleasant.

Don't panic yet. ANR is still playable and I'll try to keep it that way whatever it takes, but my bridges with the official OCTGN are burning and I don't care anymore since they already treat me like garbage anyway.

DB0 out.
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Matt - Conduit23
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Very sorry to hear this.

Just cancelled my subscription to OCTGN.

When do we Kickstart an FFG-official A:NR online client, programmed by DB0?
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Nigel McNaughton
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Just because Kelly doesn't want to do a rudimentary 'do any games have conflicting GUID?' check? Something that should be there anyway. I mean this is because Mage Wars conflicted with Lord of the Rings, how hard is it to just have a check in place?
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Bryan Blumklotz
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Rut-roh. I was already having problems with hosting games and this is just depressing. DbZer0, I wanna thank you for your insane labor of love and the gift you have given the ANR community.

Good luck and keep us posted on what develops.
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Joe Held
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Super lame, especially since I've literally seen you all over the place being such a big proponent of the service. Do what you got to do. OCTGN will not be getting my money after that.





*Edited, damn I hate autocorrect on my Kindle sometimes.
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Allan Clements
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From what I understood, the GUID of a card can just be the game ID + a card ID (as it is right now). So long as each game has a unique id there will never be a problem.

Why would it need to be random? would you need to register every card and ask for a GUID when adding new cards?
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Reverend Redd
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OCTGN without A:NR is OCTGN without me. No db0, no games for BGG fans, thus no support from BGG's 20 million user community that made it famous.

My God, they've been determined to bite the hands that feed them ever since they took over OCTGN. Guess it's time our community demonstrates why that's generally considered by anyone with half a brain to be a bad idea.

OCTGN uninstalled.
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Konstantinos Thoukydidis
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Kamakaze wrote:
From what I understood, the GUID of a card can just be the game ID + a card ID (as it is right now). So long as each game has a unique id there will never be a problem.

Why would it need to be random? would you need to register every card and ask for a GUID when adding new cards?


Theoretically it needs to be completely random to give the minimum chance for conflicts. Practically there's no chance for conflicts, and even if it were, it would be easier to just isolate each game's sets and cards so that they can't conflict with other games, and so that each dev can use the GUIDs that suit them.
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Allan Clements
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well if each game was given a unique id even with just 4 letters that would be more games than would ever be implemented.

GUID: abcd-carduniqueidgeneratedbygamecreator

there is no chance of that ever conflicting with any other game. Purely random would increase the chances of conflict from zero to a tiny percentage.

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Konstantinos Thoukydidis
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Kamakaze wrote:
well if each game was given a unique id even with just 4 letters that would be more games than would ever be implemented.

GUID: abcd-carduniqueidgeneratedbygamecreator

there is no chance of that ever conflicting with any other game. Purely random would increase the chances of conflict from zero to a tiny percentage.



GUIDs are also used for each card. So each card's ID needs to be different, but even with thousands of cards, the chance of a GUID conflict is astronomical.
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Allan Clements
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Yes, but I just mean the first part of each card unique id is a game unique id. Then there is no chance of conflict between games because the first 4 letters of each cards unique id belongs to that game.
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Konstantinos Thoukydidis
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Kamakaze wrote:
Yes, but I just mean the first part of each card unique id is a game unique id. Then there is no chance of conflict between games because the first 4 letters of each cards unique id belongs to that game.


Theoretically, only if every game dev does that, but if someone starts doing truly random GUIDs, it has a miniscul;e chance of conflict. But that is just so rare as to not be worth considering.
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Michele Lupo
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DbZer0 wrote:
They've decided to enforce GUID randomness and since I'm using serialized GUIDs in order to work with websites like cardgamedb.com, this will break A:NR, unless I and all all peripheral websites do extensive re-work to avoid it and that would still break all existing decks and websites. This is also the case for most other FFG games.

I've tried to explain why this is a bad idea. I've tried to suggest alternatives, but they won't listen to reason. The sanctity of the GUID needs to be maintained regardless of necessity, and since they hold the reigns of development, all my objections are being brushed aside and I'm being ridiculed.

As this is yet another case of the developer making decisions which break my games and then being unwilling to reconsider because he doesn't have to suffer, I am making this my stand.

Unfortunately, the extreme arrogance of the main developer in the past year, and the continuous way he's giving me grief has made this a matter of principle for me. Given the efforts I've put into the OCTGN community, I am loathe to be beholden to one such as Kelly and suffer his continuous ridicule and horrible decisions.

I do now know how long A:NR will continue to work. Kelly has already threatened that if I bypass his GUID enforcement, he's prepared to ban it from OCTGN and he's already banned me from the OCTGN IRC channel. I WILL bypass those enforcements if possible.

Sorry to break these bad news suddenly, but for me, enough is enough! I've been promoting and developing for OCTGN without any reward since before Kelly even came onboard, and I do not need any more grief on something that is supposed to be pleasant.

Don't panic yet. ANR is still playable and I'll try to keep it that way whatever it takes, but my bridges with the official OCTGN are burning and I don't care anymore since they already treat me like garbage anyway.

DB0 out.


Maybe, if they do an asinine update that breaks ANR, you should not fix it. Make a big post, with some proof of their bad attitude and lack of respect and let the community speak with their wallets, since it's an option right now. When their project crashes and burns maybe someone with more sense will pick it up. We shouldn't feel like kelly's hostages just because he is a skilled coder.

There should at least be a poll among the subscribers for this kind of thing since we are actively contributing to the effort.
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Allan Clements
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DbZer0 wrote:
Kamakaze wrote:
Yes, but I just mean the first part of each card unique id is a game unique id. Then there is no chance of conflict between games because the first 4 letters of each cards unique id belongs to that game.


Theoretically, only if every game dev does that, but if someone starts doing truly random GUIDs, it has a miniscul;e chance of conflict. But that is just so rare as to not be worth considering.


well telling all game developers to set the start of their guid to abcd, seems just as fine as telling them all to use random numbers.

Unless other games are already using random numbers?

The simplest solution if they insist on random numbers, is to generate a GUID based on something like a md5 hash of the game name+card name+number, that would at least appear random and could be generated by other tools.

What are they doing to enforce that the GUIDs are "random"?
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Konstantinos Thoukydidis
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Kamakaze wrote:

What are they doing to enforce that the GUIDs are "random"?


Dunno, I'm guessing they're going to have a check where it will reject your game if you don't have more than 30% variance between GUIDs or something.
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Allan Clements
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Seems like implementing a save state feature for games would take about as much time as trying enforce random GUIDS
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Konstantinos Thoukydidis
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First thing I said to them "Instead of implementing features with no benefit that just causes pain to the developers, maybe you should implement a feature people actually want."
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Matthew Martin
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Android: Netrunner OCTGN gaming guild » Forums » General
Re: Warning: OCTGN developers planning to break A:NR with next update
I once got a 30 minute chat ban for calling the OCTGN devs "code-kludging hugbox autists" and I stand by my statement.

This is on top of their continually making what should be basic functionality (chat blinking, sound) paid features, when their basic stuff doesn't even work right. Couple that with the fact that the original dev stated he didn't want people making money on his work, and you've got a pack of whiny "my way or the highway" idiots who would rather spend time implementing a quick cash grab than they would fixing their service.



Edit: If you'd like to voice your concerns to Head OCTGN developer Kelly Elton directly, his e-mail is kelly.elton@skylabsonline.com per his publicly viewable resume. There's also support@octgn.net but I doubt anyone is watching it.

My recommendation is you keep it constructive.
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JPG
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So what is the feeling of those who work with OCTGN?

As a occasional user of OCTGN, I like it, but I use it because I enjoy A:NR. If I cannot play A:NR on OCTGN, I won't use it.

There are 2 options:

1) Make it clear to the OCTGN developers that their priority should be to support the plugins, as that is the reason we use the service.

2) Give up on OCTGN and support a move to something else (if there even is something else).

And if we decide to "save" OCTGN, there are things that we, as a community, can do (mass unsuscribe, flood forums, publicize the issue, etc).

I guess I would want to hear from people like db0.

Is OCTGN worth saving from itself? If this Kelly person is going to constantly try to change OCTGN and make it harder to do the things we love it for (ie. play the games we enjoy), perhaps we shoud move on.

There was that incident a few months ago. The way that was handled by Kelly made me cautious and I decided to wait and see how things developed before subscribing. Now I kind of wish I had subscribed so I could cancel.

If Kelly is going to piss off the plugin developers every few months with "features with no benefit that just causes pain to the developers... [instead of] a feature people actually want" perhaps it is time to let go?

Thoughts?
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Andrew Lieffring
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Deviant wrote:
I once got a 30 minute chat ban for calling the OCTGN devs "code-kludging hugbox autists" and I stand by my statement.

...

My recommendation is you keep it constructive.


Heh.
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Matthew Martin
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IncompleteUserNa wrote:
Deviant wrote:
I once got a 30 minute chat ban for calling the OCTGN devs "code-kludging hugbox autists" and I stand by my statement.

...

My recommendation is you keep it constructive.


Heh.


Look, just because I'm a loud, pompous, boisterous ass doesn't mean that a thousand people shouting like that will get anywhere. I'm just good for calling attention to things.
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BT Carpenter
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Konstantinos Thoukydidis
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Grusome99 wrote:

2) Give up on OCTGN and support a move to something else (if there even is something else).


We're not at the point where this is necessary. But even if OCTGN decides to just ban ANR in order to spite me, the code is open, it can always be forked.
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Matthew Martin
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DbZer0 wrote:
Grusome99 wrote:

2) Give up on OCTGN and support a move to something else (if there even is something else).


We're not at the point where this is necessary. But even if OCTGN decides to just ban ANR in order to spite me, the code is open, it can always be forked.


I, for one, welcome our new dbZer0 overlords.
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Barry Bradley
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Deviant wrote:
DbZer0 wrote:
Grusome99 wrote:

2) Give up on OCTGN and support a move to something else (if there even is something else).


We're not at the point where this is necessary. But even if OCTGN decides to just ban ANR in order to spite me, the code is open, it can always be forked.


I, for one, welcome our new dbZer0 overlords.


DBZer0 is my personal lord and savior.
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