Recommend
22 
 Thumb up
 Hide
179 Posts
[1]  Prev «  2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6  Next »  [8] | 

Twilight Struggle» Forums » Rules

Subject: Holding a score card rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
David Dorcich
United States
San Jose
CA
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
jaysachs wrote:


Interestingly, that doesn't apply to 5YP or Ask Not.


Those both give a away to discard a scoring card, they don't force you to hold onto one.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jay Sachs
United States
Williamstown
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
Despite your hope, there is not even any inherent symbolism; gravity is simply a coincidence.
mbmbmbmbmb
djhopscotch wrote:
jaysachs wrote:


Interestingly, that doesn't apply to 5YP or Ask Not.


Those both give a away to discard a scoring card, they don't force you to hold onto one.


Ask Not: US AR 6 (of 7): US has 3 cards left; discards three, draws three. Two scoring cards come up.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Dorcich
United States
San Jose
CA
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
jaysachs wrote:


Ask Not: US AR 6 (of 7): US has 3 cards left; discards three, draws three. Two scoring cards come up.


Since the US player technically does it to himself, it sneaks around 10.1.5.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Max DuBoff
United States
Cherry Hill
New Jersey
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Terrorism also might force someone to hold a scoring card (or, more commonly, Lone Gunman or CIA Created).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Charles Robinson
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
MD1616 wrote:
Terrorism also might force someone to hold a scoring card (or, more commonly, Lone Gunman or CIA Created).


Ummm, how exactly would that happen?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Bauer
United States
Gilbert
Arizona
flag msg tools
Bazinga!
mbmbmbmbmb
In my opinion the designers original intent was holding the card is an illegal move and simple could not be done. That is the way the rule was written. Having an illegal move that can't be be verified makes for bad tournament rules so they had to add the tournament rules to make it more palpable, it was unintended that the rule would soften the restriction on holding scoring cards. I am guessing the designer really didn't think through the few edge cases where you would lose by the regular rules and win by the tournament rules.

I think either way is a fine way to play, arguing that one interpretation is gaming the rules is not helpful, it is a grey area.

Either way you play it is really a pretty small change. I favor the interpretation that the rule should be similar to the tournament rule, there is a announce if you are holding a scoring card phase and it is legal to hold it, you just lose. I don't want to play with the full tournament rules as I don't want to reveal my hold card.

The major difference to me is not the chance of auto victory which is small and only going to come up in very close games where either side where in a good position to win but making it illegal for USSR to hold on to a scoring card and play 5 year plan as there last card to discard it without scoring it. I think if you are going to play it is illegal you should also not let the US draw more cards than he can legally play in the rounds he has left in the turn, or I guess you could let him mulligan if they drew what would amount to an illegal hand.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Max DuBoff
United States
Cherry Hill
New Jersey
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
taulus wrote:
MD1616 wrote:
Terrorism also might force someone to hold a scoring card (or, more commonly, Lone Gunman or CIA Created).


Ummm, how exactly would that happen?
Hi Charles. When I say "hold," I mean be forced to play the card in one's last action round (i.e. hold the card until the last action round, not until the next turn).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Bauer
United States
Gilbert
Arizona
flag msg tools
Bazinga!
mbmbmbmbmb
MD1616 wrote:
taulus wrote:
MD1616 wrote:
Terrorism also might force someone to hold a scoring card (or, more commonly, Lone Gunman or CIA Created).


Ummm, how exactly would that happen?
Hi Charles. When I say "hold," I mean be forced to play the card in one's last action round (i.e. hold the card until the last action round, not until the next turn).


I don't think that is what anyone else means by hold. "Hold" means not playing it in the turn and keeping it to the next turn. I don't see how
Terrorism effects the order you play cards in the turn.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Max DuBoff
United States
Cherry Hill
New Jersey
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I will give an example to show exactly what I mean: USSR coups in his first AR, plays Iranian Hostage Crisis in his second AR, and plays Terrorism in a later AR, making US discard two cards and leaving US with three actions rounds to play. US has China, Lone Gunman, and Asia Scoring. He must play Lone Gunman, and if DEFCON is at 2, US will probably lose. I apologize; I messed up when I mentioned being forced to hold a scoring card; that was only with the old Ames card.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ananda Gupta
United States
Columbia
MD
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Twilight Struggle » Forums » Rules
Re: Holding a score card
What a fascinating situation; it just goes to show that after eight years, interesting issues can still arise in Twilight Struggle! I appreciate the analysis that this thread's posters have provided. I would further appreciate it if someone would cross-post this to Consimworld for me, as I rarely post there these days.

Ruling:
The USSR player is correct; the scoring card is not deemed "held" until after action rounds are over, and by then he has already won.

(end ruling)

The question of the timing of the Reveal Held Card phase is interesting, as the current sequence of play suggests a player could hold a scoring card and nonetheless win when Military Ops points are evaluated and awarded (since Reveal Held Card occurs after that phase). This is unintended, and muddies the waters about when a held card is counted as held. Therefore:

ERRATA:

Phase E (Check Military Operations Status) and Phase F (Reveal Held Card) should swap places in the sequence of play, becoming Phase E (Reveal Held Card) and Phase F (Check Military Operations Status).

Furthermore, Phase E (Reveal Held Card) is no longer a tournament rule (and is therefore no longer optional). However, as the cards imply, 4.5F (now 4.5E) and 11.1.1 should be understood only as requiring examination of the bottom portion of the held card - the part with the red stripe - to verify that none are scoring cards.
79 
 Thumb up
1.50
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Leo S.
Chile
Valdivia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
ASGupta wrote:
ERRATA:
Phase E (Check Military Operations Status) and Phase F (Reveal Held Card) should swap places in the sequence of play, becoming Phase E (Reveal Held Card) and Phase F (Check Military Operations Status).

That's a rules and a board errata then, considering that the phase order is written on the board.
Anyway it's really great to have an oficcial answer about the moral legality of maintaining a scoring card in hand on the last action round(s).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sam Carroll
United States
Champaign
Illinois
flag msg tools
Soli Deo Gloria!
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Thank you for resolving this, Ananda!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Costas Charitos
Greece
flag msg tools
I stumbled on something in BGG's rules forum, that I 'd like to share with you.
It seems that in 2006 a similar question and situation had arisen (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/759553#759553), where a player intentionally holds a scoring card, plays Europe Scoring with Europe control and wins the game.
Jason Matthews had answered then, the same way that Ananda did now, that the play was legal.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
C. South
United States
N Hollywood
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Lawcomic wrote:
Rule 2.2.1 says: "Some cards are labeled SCORING,
which must be played sometime during the turn they are drawn" (emphasis added).


There is no ambiguity, here. This is the clearly stated rule that answers the the question posed by this thread. Having a scoring card in your hand means that you MUST play it as one of your actions for the turn unless some other situation forces or allows you to discard it. Failing to do this is clearly a breach of the rules.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kristian Thy
Germany
Bonn
flag msg tools
Together, we are the United Nations
badge
Gunulfr ok Øgotr ok Aslakr ok Rolfr resþu sten þænsi æftir Ful, felaga sin, ær warþ ... døþr, þa kunungar barþusk.
mb
Um, it might be a good idea to read the thread, including the designer's ruling, before posting something that's very wrong.
17 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
C. South
United States
N Hollywood
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
turbothy wrote:
Um, it might be a good idea to read the thread, including the designer's ruling, before posting something that's very wrong.


I didn't notice the ruling, and I'm certainly not going to argue it other than to say that for the ruling not to be a contradiction of the rules as written, 2.2.1 needs to be re-worded since it wasn't addressed at all in the ruling.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
C. South
United States
N Hollywood
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
OK...so, after thinking about it, it seems clear to me that in order for Ananda's ruling on this issue not to invalidate rule 2.2.1 as written, the "reveal held card" phase (E) must happen twice each turn, immediately after each player's last opportunity to play a card.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Peacock
Canada
Montréal
quebec
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
2.2.1 should be rewritten like 4.5.D 2nd bullet

2.2.1 There are 110 cards used in the game. Except for Scoring
Cards, all contain an Operations Point value, an Event Title and
an Event Description. Scoring cards are labeled “SCORING” and
must be played sometime during the turn they are drawn may never be held.


IMHO, The spirit of the rule 2.2.1 is that there are 110 cards that all contain an event or ops value, with the exception of scoring cards. Which is why it is in the Component section of the rules. The restriction regarding Scoring Cards should have been explained in the section 5 Card play, instead they put in 4.5.D at the end of the 2nd bullet.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeffrey Drozek-Fitzwater
United States
Houston
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I would've high fived the kid. What a play.
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jay Sachs
United States
Williamstown
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
Despite your hope, there is not even any inherent symbolism; gravity is simply a coincidence.
mbmbmbmbmb
turbothy wrote:
Um, it might be a good idea to read the thread, including the designer's ruling, before posting something that's very wrong.


You were far kinder than I was about to be.

Rules lawyers with something to prove belong in the same level of hell as trolls.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Max DuBoff
United States
Cherry Hill
New Jersey
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
jaysachs wrote:
turbothy wrote:
Um, it might be a good idea to read the thread, including the designer's ruling, before posting something that's very wrong.


You were far kinder than I was about to be.

Rules lawyers with something to prove belong in the same level of hell as trolls.


I can see it now: Dante's Inferno, the 2013 edition. You'd probably need about 90 circles of hell.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lawcomic
United States
Tennessee
flag msg tools
The stuff that dreams are made of...
mbmbmbmbmb
Can we revisit this once every 30 days for the next five years? Thanks.
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Bauer
United States
Gilbert
Arizona
flag msg tools
Bazinga!
mbmbmbmbmb
Lawcomic wrote:
Can we revisit this once every 30 days for the next five years? Thanks.


I am pretty sure we can.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lawcomic
United States
Tennessee
flag msg tools
The stuff that dreams are made of...
mbmbmbmbmb
csouth154 wrote:
OK...so, after thinking about it, it seems clear to me that in order for Ananda's ruling on this issue not to invalidate rule 2.2.1 as written, the "reveal held card" phase (E) must happen twice each turn, immediately after each player's last opportunity to play a card.


So, if I get to 20 points during a turn before playing the scoring card, would you argue I do not validly win at that point as I had not played a scoring card during the turn?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
C. South
United States
N Hollywood
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Lawcomic wrote:
csouth154 wrote:
OK...so, after thinking about it, it seems clear to me that in order for Ananda's ruling on this issue not to invalidate rule 2.2.1 as written, the "reveal held card" phase (E) must happen twice each turn, immediately after each player's last opportunity to play a card.


So, if I get to 20 points during a turn before playing the scoring card, would you argue I do not validly win at that point as I had not played a scoring card during the turn?


No; unless you reached 20 points on your last action round of the turn by playing something other than the scoring card.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
[1]  Prev «  2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6  Next »  [8] | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.