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Subject: Fear and Loathing remaining spoilers rss

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Jason Hamner
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Tekkactus wrote:
Sometimes, I don't understand the hate casual players have for the competitive scene. No one is stopping you from playing your decks or having fun. But fun doesn't always mean good. Alpha/Omega are one, but they're definitely not the other.


Someone who posts on BGG about card spoilers is probably, by definition, not a casual player. Regardless, my objection is not to grading cards on a competitive basis it's to the idea that a card game this young can have anything resembling an established meta. You do realize the four data packs since Worlds represent a full quarter of the card pool right?

From the post in question you told us that the "meta" tells us:
Quote:
Alpha/Omega are too big and slow to compete with the current top breakers, and even if they weren't, Kit's inability to run more than once per turn will always hinder her ability to pressure for as long as the game exists.

I guess we better tell Yog, Crysis, and Femme that they are too big and slow to compete eh? And how exactly do we know that Torch and Garrote are junk since they've only been out for a month or two? Further, just a quick look at Stimhack has 3 out of 17 tournament winning decks since True Colors being Kit decks... which is comparable to the number of Gabes, Anderomedas, and Kates. Doesn't seem her "hindered ability to pressure" is such a hindrance.

If you want to argue that Omega + Kit is going to be a terrible, no good, Deck for Dumbs that could never win anything but the salt shaker on your kitchen table... go right ahead. But don't give me garbage about how "the meta has already spoken" when the truth is that you are simply not willing to make the argument... probably because it can't legitimately be made until people start playing with it.
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Mychal
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JWHamner wrote:
You do realize the four data packs since Worlds represent a full quarter of the card pool right?

Beside the point, but 21.739130434% is not a full quarter.
 
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Jason Hamner
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Skylar114 wrote:
JWHamner wrote:
You do realize the four data packs since Worlds represent a full quarter of the card pool right?

Beside the point, but 21.739130434% is not a full quarter.


I've got 80 cards, including Fear and Loathing, since Worlds, right? (Second Thoughts wasn't legal) 113 in the Core. 120 in Genesis. 55 in Creation and Control. 20 in Opening Moves. 80/308=26%

What am I missing?

EDIT: Oh I get it... increased card pool by 26% but those 80 cards are only 21% of card pool. Duh.
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Lluluien
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If anyone needs an example of how a talented academic writer might communicate on an internet message board, they can go look at one of Hollis' articles. Bickering about how it should be done is worth about 0.01% as much as taking the time to read just one of his articles, and you get the added bonus that you get to read about Netrunner too.
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Matt - Conduit23
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I like talking about cards.
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Matt - Conduit23
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Android: Netrunner » Forums » News
Re: Fear and Loathing remaining spoilers
Confirmation on Subliminal Messaging via xpiredsodapop (I think?) via Facebook.

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Nephtys Nephtys
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JWHamner wrote:

I guess we better tell Yog, Crysis, and Femme that they are too big and slow to compete eh? And how exactly do we know that Torch and Garrote are junk since they've only been out for a month or two? Further, just a quick look at Stimhack has 3 out of 17 tournament winning decks since True Colors being Kit decks... which is comparable to the number of Gabes, Anderomedas, and Kates. Doesn't seem her "hindered ability to pressure" is such a hindrance.

If you want to argue that Omega + Kit is going to be a terrible, no good, Deck for Dumbs that could never win anything but the salt shaker on your kitchen table... go right ahead. But don't give me garbage about how "the meta has already spoken" when the truth is that you are simply not willing to make the argument... probably because it can't legitimately be made until people start playing with it.


I'm sorry, but you can't simply say 'high cost breakers don't work' or 'high cost breakers do work'.

Torch and Garrote may be high cost, but they're also ball-breakingly efficient compared to their peers once on the table.

Alpha and Omega are not. They're in fact, only a smudge more efficient than Crypsis, the least efficient breaker in the game next to Wyrm, which is for other uses. They're also the most inflexible breakers in the game, since they only affect the outer and innermost installed ice. Not rezed. Installed.

Compare this to the breakers you mentioned like Yog.O, which is limited by being a decoder and fixed, yet infinitely more efficient as it will never cost you a cent again. Or Femme, which is a pretty decent sentry breaker, that has a unique power that utterly ignores any ice, anywhere.

If you rely on Alpha and Omega, congrats. You spent 14 credits for an incomplete rig that gets shut out by 3-deep servers, as well as costing a horrific amount to use. You may as well have just ran a single Crypsis, which is cheaper, more flexible and about as efficient.
 
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Vincent Perry
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Nephtys wrote:
JWHamner wrote:

I guess we better tell Yog, Crysis, and Femme that they are too big and slow to compete eh? And how exactly do we know that Torch and Garrote are junk since they've only been out for a month or two? Further, just a quick look at Stimhack has 3 out of 17 tournament winning decks since True Colors being Kit decks... which is comparable to the number of Gabes, Anderomedas, and Kates. Doesn't seem her "hindered ability to pressure" is such a hindrance.

If you want to argue that Omega + Kit is going to be a terrible, no good, Deck for Dumbs that could never win anything but the salt shaker on your kitchen table... go right ahead. But don't give me garbage about how "the meta has already spoken" when the truth is that you are simply not willing to make the argument... probably because it can't legitimately be made until people start playing with it.


I'm sorry, but you can't simply say 'high cost breakers don't work' or 'high cost breakers do work'.

Torch and Garrote may be high cost, but they're also ball-breakingly efficient compared to their peers once on the table.

Alpha and Omega are not. They're in fact, only a smudge more efficient than Crypsis, the least efficient breaker in the game next to Wyrm, which is for other uses. They're also the most inflexible breakers in the game, since they only affect the outer and innermost installed ice. Not rezed. Installed.

Compare this to the breakers you mentioned like Yog.O, which is limited by being a decoder and fixed, yet infinitely more efficient as it will never cost you a cent again. Or Femme, which is a pretty decent sentry breaker, that has a unique power that utterly ignores any ice, anywhere.

If you rely on Alpha and Omega, congrats. You spent 14 credits for an incomplete rig that gets shut out by 3-deep servers, as well as costing a horrific amount to use. You may as well have just ran a single Crypsis, which is cheaper, more flexible and about as efficient.


Garrote is not efficient when you are looking at an ice wall. AI breakers are not supposed to be efficient. They are supposed to be flexible. Knowing that you can get into any server with a single ice is valuable. Is it worth 7? I don't know. Compared to Crypsis, They are less flexible. That is why they have an additional strength, and don't require a virus token (which is a a pretty taxing drawback for Crypsis).
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Peter O
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All the AI breakers need some form of support to be used as the "primary" breaker. Atman decks require Datasuckers. Darwin is benefited greatly by EC3 and Datasuckers.

Alpha and Omega will be greatly benefited by Parasite, Inside Job, Emergency Shutdown, Knight and the like. Played in the proper meta, they can be all you need. The corp needs a very specific breaker in the middle spot to stop the runner. Namely an etr or severely damaging subroutine. Hunter, Pop up window etc won't do enough to slow down the Alpha/Omega runner.

I imagine these cards can be really good in a Scavenge based shaper deck, probably with Exile. They allow early access to many servers. It will be a considerable time before the corp can get everything 3 deep. Once the corp does get a problematic 3 deep, Exile can scavenge out Alpha/Omega for a more useful breaker like Femme.

Alpha/Omega allows early shaper pressure. They're only long game relevant if you build the rest of deck that way. Otherwise, swap em out.

What Alpha and Omega are not, is simply slapped into most already constructed decks. Your deck plan needs to include them.
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Captain Frisk
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tranenturm wrote:
All the AI breakers need some form of support to be used as the "primary" breaker. Atman decks require Datasuckers. Darwin is benefited greatly by EC3 and Datasuckers.

Alpha and Omega will be greatly benefited by Parasite, Inside Job, Emergency Shutdown, Knight and the like. Played in the proper meta, they can be all you need. The corp needs a very specific breaker in the middle spot to stop the runner. Namely an etr or severely damaging subroutine. Hunter, Pop up window etc won't do enough to slow down the Alpha/Omega runner.

I imagine these decks can be really good in a Scavenge based shaper deck, probably with Exile. They allow early access to many servers. It will be a considerable time before the corp can get everything 3 deep. Once the corp does get a problematic 3 deep, Exile can scavenge out Alpha/Omega for a more useful breaker like Femme.

Alpha/Omega allows early shaper pressure. They're only long game relevant if you build the rest of deck that way. Otherwise, swap em out.

What Alpha and Omega are not, is simply slapped into most already constructed decks. Your deck plan needs to include them.


I agree that people are underrating them. Modded Kate Alpha gives her tremendous early game pressure if you want it.
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Peter O
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Omega is possibly better than Alpha, in that it works better with Inside Job and once the runner places their first ICE on the base servers, they are more "locked in" than later ICE. Locked-in in the sense that if the corp wants to change the inner-most ICE, they need to trash it. Versus, if the corp wants to change the outer-most ICE, they can just add one.

What that means, is that if the corp finds only a single code-gate and plays it as an inner-most ICE, then Omega continues to be useful even if you've already brought in Corroder and Femme. Omega acts as your Code-Breaker.
Admittedly this is a minor benefit, but it still exists.
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Alex Rockwell
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strundle wrote:

"This is a paragraph written in Standard American English. I believe that I am correct when I assert that Starlight Crusade Funding has little utility. I derived this belief from a collection of evidence, including past experience with similar cards and a functional, if not expert, knowledge of cost-benefit analysis. However, I am also aware that my belief may change, pending new information or experience. Just as a reminder, this has been a paragraph written in Standard American English, at least to the best of my knowledge, which is certainly imperfect."


Insufficient! I demand that you go play 1000 games with Starlight Crusade Funding, and 1000 without it, and compute the win rates of each deck. And then write an academic paper in which you perform a statistical analysis, and calculate the error of your data set, and determine whether or not Starlight Crusade Funding has a statistically significant effect on win rate. And then get it peer reviewed and published in the 'Journal of Advanced Netrunner Card Analysis'.

Until you have done this you cannot claim that Starlight Crusade Funding is bad!

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Alex Rockwell
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tranenturm wrote:
Omega is possibly better than Alpha, in that it works better with Inside Job and once the runner places their first ICE on the base servers, they are more "locked in" than later ICE. Locked-in in the sense that if the corp wants to change the inner-most ICE, they need to trash it. Versus, if the corp wants to change the outer-most ICE, they can just add one.

What that means, is that if the corp finds only a single code-gate and plays it as an inner-most ICE, then Omega continues to be useful even if you've already brought in Corroder and Femme. Omega acts as your Code-Breaker.
Admittedly this is a minor benefit, but it still exists.


I dont think its minor, I think Omega is substantially better than Alpha, for those reasons.

Also, for Kit, Alpha sucks but Omega might be quite helpful.
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Jason Hamner
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Alexfrog wrote:
strundle wrote:

"This is a paragraph written in Standard American English. I believe that I am correct when I assert that Starlight Crusade Funding has little utility. I derived this belief from a collection of evidence, including past experience with similar cards and a functional, if not expert, knowledge of cost-benefit analysis. However, I am also aware that my belief may change, pending new information or experience. Just as a reminder, this has been a paragraph written in Standard American English, at least to the best of my knowledge, which is certainly imperfect."


Insufficient! I demand that you go play 1000 games with Starlight Crusade Funding, and 1000 without it, and compute the win rates of each deck. And then write an academic paper in which you perform a statistical analysis, and calculate the error of your data set, and determine whether or not Starlight Crusade Funding has a statistically significant effect on win rate. And then get it peer reviewed and published in the 'Journal of Advanced Netrunner Card Analysis'.

Until you have done this you cannot claim that Starlight Crusade Funding is bad!



Nobody is saying you have to play with a card to review it, but if your review consists of "This card SUXXORS because: Meta. Q.E.D." You haven't made a very convincing case.
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Captain Frisk
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Alexfrog wrote:
tranenturm wrote:
Omega is possibly better than Alpha, in that it works better with Inside Job and once the runner places their first ICE on the base servers, they are more "locked in" than later ICE. Locked-in in the sense that if the corp wants to change the inner-most ICE, they need to trash it. Versus, if the corp wants to change the outer-most ICE, they can just add one.

What that means, is that if the corp finds only a single code-gate and plays it as an inner-most ICE, then Omega continues to be useful even if you've already brought in Corroder and Femme. Omega acts as your Code-Breaker.
Admittedly this is a minor benefit, but it still exists.


I dont think its minor, I think Omega is substantially better than Alpha, for those reasons.

Also, for Kit, Alpha sucks but Omega might be quite helpful.


Alpha works better as protection as you build your rig...

If you got it out early, then used it to force rezzes on the only ice on servers - then you can find the breakers for those and still be protected from whatever unkonwn disasters are added on the outside. If the inside ice is porous - Data Raven / Eli etc. - you could keep pounding even without a breaker for the innermost ice.

Agree that Omega is obviously significantly better in Kit.
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Richard Roe
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I personally will be playing Alpha and Omega, probably in a Kate deck with 3 Personal Workshops, 3 Parasites, 3 Datasuckers and all the accoutrements. Best thing to happen to Shaper ice destruction in this whole cycle. Cybersolutions mem chip will also be a welcome addition to this deck.

EDIT : That same deck will probably become Nasir when he comes out because of his synergy with Personal workshop.
 
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Dirk Tebben
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Alpha/Omega + ice destruction could work well against some corp decks, but anyone with a reasonable (18+) amount of cheap ETR ice is going to bend you over. 7 credits + 5 per run to break Eli 1.0 is not a winning runner strategy.

All those Jinteki players trying to squeak by with 14 ice, half of which isn't ETR and/or is strength 0-1, yeah, they're in trouble.
 
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Bob Bobberson
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EverRich wrote:
I personally will be playing Alpha and Omega, probably in a Kate deck with 3 Personal Workshops, 3 Parasites, 3 Datasuckers and all the accoutrements. Best thing to happen to Shaper ice destruction in this whole cycle. Cybersolutions mem chip will also be a welcome addition to this deck.

EDIT : That same deck will probably become Nasir when he comes out because of his synergy with Personal workshop.

This is interesting. I find myself doubting though, as good 'ole Atman may be just as effective and more versatile in Shaper Ice destruction. I can certainly see appeal of having an adjustable AI in a situation where you're hammering R&D with parasites.

The poster before me had it right, any deck running 18+ cheap ETRs will thwart your efforts easily. Maybe the solution is run 2 Atman and 1 Alpha/Omega?
 
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Nephtys Nephtys
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Let's look at these two AI rigs.

2 Atman, Str0 and Str 3 let's say, and a Datasucker. 3 cards, cost: 10
vs
Alpha, Omega, and... Knight?: 3 Cards, Cost: 16.

That first rig will get into any server for a pittance.
That second rig will cost you 10+ to get into a moderately deep server. Even a simple Eli 1.0 + Enigma server will cost you 8 to get through!

Really, I think Alpha+Omega is a red herring. It may be an AI breaker, but if you need multiple AI breakers to work together, AND be cost inefficient, why not just get 3 normal breakers?
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Nephtys wrote:
Let's look at these two AI rigs.

2 Atman, Str0 and Str 3 let's say, and a Datasucker. 3 cards, cost: 10
vs
Alpha, Omega, and... Knight?: 3 Cards, Cost: 16.

That first rig will get into any server for a pittance.
That second rig will cost you 10+ to get into a moderately deep server. Even a simple Eli 1.0 + Enigma server will cost you 8 to get through!

Really, I think Alpha+Omega is a red herring. It may be an AI breaker, but if you need multiple AI breakers to work together, AND be cost inefficient, why not just get 3 normal breakers?


Sure but that isn't a very fair comparisson is it?
1. You are picking the best ICE for setup 1 (small ICE)
2. You are ignoring the cost and risk of relying on Datasucker
3. You aren't considering a partial rig
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Matt
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Nephtys wrote:
Let's look at these two AI rigs.

2 Atman, Str0 and Str 3 let's say, and a Datasucker. 3 cards, cost: 10
vs
Alpha, Omega, and... Knight?: 3 Cards, Cost: 16.

That first rig will get into any server for a pittance.
That second rig will cost you 10+ to get into a moderately deep server. Even a simple Eli 1.0 + Enigma server will cost you 8 to get through!

Really, I think Alpha+Omega is a red herring. It may be an AI breaker, but if you need multiple AI breakers to work together, AND be cost inefficient, why not just get 3 normal breakers?

Your Atman deck isn't getting anywhere without sucker counters...

EDIT: ninja
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Glenn Glenn
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I don't think you should play them together. It will be fun, but not good. They have similarities, like you should plan to cheat them out somehow, and that they need assistance. Both are good at 1 ice servers and stuff like emergency shutdown and knight. But they compliment different strategies, methinks.

Alpha:
* good for decks that can respond to the ice behind it, especially if rezzed (like special order, parasite, smc, breaker)
* everything is the first ice at some point
* Better for facechecking ice, new ice isn't as scary
* Better at attacking Synergy servers like chum or rSVP into stuff, or whirlpool/other trap ice.

Omega:
* obviously boss with kit
* with bypass effects, servers stay porous.
* opens more windows. If the corp puts down a second ice and can't red it, you still get through. Relevant with HQ events.

I'm sure I'm missing stuff. Any thoughts?


 
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