$10.00
Recommend
168 
 Thumb up
 Hide
1322 Posts
[1]  Prev «  1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [53] | 

Wargames» Forums » General

Subject: East Front WW 2 Gamers rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: evil [+] Clique [+] thumb [+] posse [+] [View All]
Dan Owsen
United States
Redmond
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: East Front WW 2 Gamers Sound Off
BeatPosse wrote:
I need to read some Glantz. Everyone suggests it.
It's not always easy reading, but his books have detail and insights that I think are more up to date than some of the other sources out there. He is known for his access to Soviet archives and provides detail from those sources that previous authors didn't have.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Burk
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
Re: East Front WW 2 Gamers Sound Off
Black Sea Black Death (PWG)
Korsun (PWG)
White Death (GDW)
The Russian Campaign (L2)
Ukraine 43 (GMT)
Drive on Stalingrad (DEC.)
Velikiye Luki (MIH)
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jonathan Townsend
Italy
Roma
Lazio
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Re: East Front WW 2 Gamers Sound Off
This is a good paperback if you can find it (out of print I expect). A first hand account :

"Front-Line Stalingrad" by Victor Nekrasov
Fontana 1964

Victor, a sapper officer, writes of his experience of the retreat through the Ukraine and then their time in Stalingrad...from the front line. Combat patrols, defence, counter attack, and how to furnish your bunker!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon
Canada
flag msg tools
mb
Re: East Front WW 2 Gamers Sound Off
I have been playing wargames since the mid to late 1970's and, other than Panzerblitz that I obtained at that time, I had played no Eastern Front specific games until 2008.

None. Nada. Zip.

Yes, I suppose that means I am a bit of a weirdo. However, in an effort to make up for lost time I have been playing RSR, AVL and "War Without Mercy" since last Fall. I even purchased 3 games from GMT's East Front series.

In addition, I have Glantz's and Clark's books to help me along. I also picked up the three "Barbarossa" booklets from Osprey the other day, which provide a nice overview.
4 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
D T P
United States
Pikeville
North Carolina
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: East Front WW 2 Gamers Sound Off
I currently have Fire in the East/Scorched Earth set up on my gaming table. In my opinion it is still the best east front game to be found.

Like many old grognards I started with AH's Stalingrad game many years ago. Later came The Russian Campaign and PanzerBlitz.

As for books, I still like Alan Clarks "Barbarossa". But I have recently began looking for other books, largely based on the recommendations I've read here.
Another book I like is "A World at Arms" by Gerhard Weinberg. An excellent book covering the entire war.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill Lawson
United States
Rutland
Vermont
flag msg tools
New England Patriots
badge
http://thegamebox.gamesontables.com/index.php
mbmb
Re: East Front WW 2 Gamers Sound Off
xlhrider wrote:
I currently have Fire in the East/Scorched Earth set up on my gaming table. In my opinion it is still the best east front game to be found.

Like many old grognards I started with AH's Stalingrad game many years ago. Later came The Russian Campaign and PanzerBlitz.

As for books, I still like Alan Clarks "Barbarossa". But I have recently began looking for other books, largely based on the recommendations I've read here.
Another book I like is "A World at Arms" by Gerhard Weinberg. An excellent book covering the entire war.



You are right its still the best.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill Lawson
United States
Rutland
Vermont
flag msg tools
New England Patriots
badge
http://thegamebox.gamesontables.com/index.php
mbmb
Re: East Front WW 2 Gamers Sound Off
xlhrider wrote:
I currently have Fire in the East/Scorched Earth set up on my gaming table. In my opinion it is still the best east front game to be found.

Like many old grognards I started with AH's Stalingrad game many years ago. Later came The Russian Campaign and PanzerBlitz.

As for books, I still like Alan Clarks "Barbarossa". But I have recently began looking for other books, largely based on the recommendations I've read here.
Another book I like is "A World at Arms" by Gerhard Weinberg. An excellent book covering the entire war.



With the 1 degree weather here and you having Fire in the East- Scorched Earth set up ( not to mention the economy up here!) I might have to come down to North Carolina. If you want the feel of the East Front just stand on my porch its freezing robot.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
D T P
United States
Pikeville
North Carolina
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: East Front WW 2 Gamers Sound Off
billyboy wrote:
xlhrider wrote:
I currently have Fire in the East/Scorched Earth set up on my gaming table. In my opinion it is still the best east front game to be found.

Like many old grognards I started with AH's Stalingrad game many years ago. Later came The Russian Campaign and PanzerBlitz.

As for books, I still like Alan Clarks "Barbarossa". But I have recently began looking for other books, largely based on the recommendations I've read here.
Another book I like is "A World at Arms" by Gerhard Weinberg. An excellent book covering the entire war.



With the 1 degree weather here and you having Fire in the East- Scorched Earth set up ( not to mention the economy up here!) I might have to come down to North Carolina. If you want the feel of the East Front just stand on my porch its freezing :robot:.

It's going to be 52 degrees here today!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill Lawson
United States
Rutland
Vermont
flag msg tools
New England Patriots
badge
http://thegamebox.gamesontables.com/index.php
mbmb
Re: East Front WW 2 Gamers Sound Off
You had to say it! Theres a cyberboard game box for Fire in the East - Scorched Earth that I've been looking at my space is limited here.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Oh my God They Banned Kenny
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: East Front WW 2 Gamers Sound Off
wargamesarefun wrote:
...Everybody has found Glantz to be the new darling of the East Front but I have read some constructive criticism of his work and I decided not to follow the bandwagon of making him the end all be all authority on the issue. I have some of his books but will also temper them with other authors to get a more panoramic view....
[italics added]

Actually that is a good approach for just about any historical topic / research. Glantz has certainly done some good research, including some 'Soviet' sources that were not previously used (or available) and he has a rather different 'take' from the 'mainstream' on certain phases of the conflict. Note, this is not simply a more 'pro-Soviet' view. For instance his 'theory' is that the Soviets were trying for a more widescale 'rupture' of the entire front in the Winter 42/43, and they downplayed the costly failure of their Mars offensive. Glantz also highlights how the Soviets downplayed their own heavy losses at Kursk - which leads to a different view of the result there (tradition would say costly failure for the Germans, Glantz's view is more like a somewhat successful 'spoiling' attack). I wouldn't necessarily take Glantz as 'gospel' and reject everything else. However, he really is a 'must read' for anyone seriously interested in the history.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Siler
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: East Front WW 2 Gamers Sound Off
It's hard to imagine Glantz pissing anyone off. He can be dry. His Kursk book and the Colossus books are a real headache, but Before Stalingrad and Zhukov's Greatest Defeat are very well written and easy to read.

Games owned:
Roads to Leningrad
ASL
Red God of War

Games played but not owned:
Fire in the East/Scorched Earth
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
D T P
United States
Pikeville
North Carolina
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: East Front WW 2 Gamers Sound Off
wargamesarefun wrote:


I have Clark's book but the version I have he stated in his forward that when he wrote it he was emotional and bias, I never read any further.



I'm surprised that you would make the decision to not read this book just because of the things you read in the forward. I think it is somewhat foolish to believe that ANY book covering a historical event is not going to have some bias in it! Especially a book on military history!

This would be especially true of any book covering the war between Germany and the Soviet Union. I don't believe ANYONE has written a 100% factually accurate account of this war. I believe everyone who has written on this subject has some bias on the subject. Certainly everyone who actually participated in this conflict have strong emotional feelings about it!

History is written by those who lived it. Whether directly or indirectly through the telling of it to writers. That makes the writing of history biased and certainly emotional. That's the nature of writing history.

The vast amount of historical accounts of mans many wars are written based on the accounts of the participants themselves. Do you think it's reasonable that all of these participants have remained absolutely unbiased as they told their accounts? Does it seem reasonable that they have not been emotionally affected by their combat experiences? Of course not!

To get the best account of what happened on the eastern front I feel that you must read as much as you can! As many different accounts that can be found. You'll need to read histories written by participants from all the various nations. You'll need to read histories written by individuals who were not there, but are writing from the tellings of those that were! And every one of these readings must be done with the knowledge that all of them are almost certainly slanted in some way.

It's unreasonable to discard Clark's book without even reading it just because he said he was biased or emotional. At least he is being honest up front. Because I guarantee you all the other writers who have written on this conflict also have information in their writings that may also be biased or emotional. Whether by their intention or due to the bias and emotional feelings of their sources.

In many ways I think Clark's book may be less biased and/or emotional because he was not an actual participant! He isn't as emotionally invested because he wasn't there! Give the man a chance. Read the book. It really is a good read.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill Lawson
United States
Rutland
Vermont
flag msg tools
New England Patriots
badge
http://thegamebox.gamesontables.com/index.php
mbmb
Re: East Front WW 2 Gamers Sound Off
Ditto Dave. I read lots of books on any topic of interest and than form my own opinions (which occasionally change). If you check out the list of books that I own on this ( East Front) topic you will see I have books from both sides of the fence.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
D T P
United States
Pikeville
North Carolina
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: East Front WW 2 Gamers Sound Off
billyboy wrote:
Ditto Dave. I read lots of books on any topic of interest and than form my own opinions (which occasionally change). If you check out the list of books that I own on this ( East Front) topic you will see I have books from both sides of the fence.


I have been looking at the many book titles you've posted. I am definately going to get some of them. I'm especially interested in Keegan's book on WWI.

And all the talk about Glantz has made me want to get some of his writings as well.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Doug Notme
United States
Severn
Maryland
flag msg tools
mb
Re: East Front WW 2 Gamers Sound Off
I won’t even try to touch on the games as I think many of the good ones have already been touched on, but the book suggestions and analysis are great. I thought I would add a little to it with some opinion on the merits of them. It’s been a while since I’ve read some of these so I’ll being going on the impressions I got and kept from them.

Barbarossa by Alan Clark: I thought it was a little less biased than he lets on and is a good, fairly easy read (got through it during a two week TDY years ago)
Russo-German War by Albert Seaton: Reads like an extremely dry history lecture. Good luck if you can get through it. I thought “The Battle for Moscow” read better.
Secret of Stalingrad by Walter Kerr: Deals with the Soviet buildup of forces during the summer of 1942 and the land trade-off for the winter offensives of 1942-43.
Enemy at the Gates by William Craig: Great book on Stalingrad, reads like a novel, but presents not only the German and Russian points of view, but spends a more time on the Axis allies than most, especially the Italians and their experiences.
The Fall of Berlin 1945 and Stalingrad by Antony Beevor: Great reads with a fairly dispassionate point of view, addresses the conflict at the civilian, operational, and strategic levels. I get the feeling he borrowed some of Craig’s and Stephen Ambrose’s story telling style.
Russia at War by Alexander Werth: Covers the war from a strategic and civilian point of view, with a lot of examination of the behind the lines events in Russia.
The Tigers are Burning by Martin Caiden: Easy read on the Battle of Kursk, but his historical accuracy is viewed with increasing skepticisms.
Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer: An easy, engrossing read that drives home the feeling of hopelessness and even despair that I assume most soldiers on the eastern front felt. Not sure about the historical accuracy or truth, in fact I’m skeptical that this is even nonfiction, but even if it is fiction, I’d highly recommend it.
Panzer Battles by Mellenthin: Memoirs of a German officer in World War II, and hence very biased toward the German point of view (i.e. Hitler was bad, but we did our best attitude throughout), but he covers the operational conduct of the war very well, to the point that this was one of the books GEN Schwarzkopf read while planning Operation Desert Storm (saw it on a documentary of the war and it was on his nightstand or desk) and one can see where he used some German east front operations in his overall attack.

Like I said, take these with a grain of salt. Work won’t give me time to go back over these to see if my opinions on them have changed over time.

Doug
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Keith Rose
United Kingdom
New Malden
Surrey
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: East Front WW 2 Gamers Sound Off
I've read a fair amount on the east front, including Clarke, Erickson, Mellenthin & more recently Bellamy (Absolute War) plus many other minor works/biographies etc.

I've played several East Front titles, though only own Panzerkrieg & Last Victory (from the Winter Storm Series)
After studying many games I settled on the Winter Storm series (the revised rules set) as the system that IMO equated most to actual warfare on the eastern front. It can be a litle fiddly rules-wise but I think it was an excellent attempt to simulate the operational scale of the conflict. Its a shame it didn't seem to catch on, though I am surprised no-one in the thread has mentioned it.

Regards
Keith
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Tyson
United States
Landing
New Jersey
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: East Front WW 2 Gamers Sound Off
Glantz is so dry that one must be wary of dehydration.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Burk
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
Re: East Front WW 2 Gamers Sound Off
Over the last 15 or so years I have read a good deal on the Ost Front. One thing is constant.....history does not change no matter what. Yes, new insites came with the downfall of the Soviet Union. This lead to access to Soviet information on the various campaigns and battles on the Ost Front. The biggest 'discovery' was the Operation Mars debacle. Also, many OB questions were cleared up as a result. Outside of various authors bias be it German or Soviet the vast majority of info has remained the same. While I like the Ost Front and the many games based on it my reading has gone to other eras of conflict such as WWI, Ancients, etc.

I may have to add another recent game to my favorite Ost Frot games after two ftf plays:

Black Sea Black Death (PWG)
Korsun (PWG)
White Death (GDW)
The Russian Campaign (L2)
Ukraine 43 (GMT)
Drive on Stalingrad (DEC.)
Velikiye Luki (MIH)
Red Star Rising (MMP) I really enjoyed this and the game does not have any iron maiden rules to make it play historical...it just does. The game also allows the player to toy with his own stratigies....very good stuff here............
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
D T P
United States
Pikeville
North Carolina
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: East Front WW 2 Gamers Sound Off
As I said earlier in this thread I am currently playing Scorched Earth. I'm on the September 41 turns right now, and already it looks like the Germans are not going to be able to win.

It seems to me that the Germans usually don't win. My experience has been that the Soviets will win at least 2/3rds of the time. This is especially true when played by two equal players, or solitare. Do any of you have this same problem? Do you seem to find that the Germans are fighting an uphill battle?

And I do accept the notion that since the Germans lost in the real war it should be hard for them to win in the game. After all I do think the game is a fairly accurate simulation.

Is there any tried and true strategies that any of you have found that increases their chances?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill Lawson
United States
Rutland
Vermont
flag msg tools
New England Patriots
badge
http://thegamebox.gamesontables.com/index.php
mbmb
Re: East Front WW 2 Gamers Sound Off
I don't have the answer Dave but its all about those trucks and RR repair units!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Peter
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: East Front WW 2 Gamers Sound Off
For me WW2 in Europe is all about Eastern Front...according to the latest studies in this book here:

http://www.amazon.com/Slaughterhouse-Handbook-Eastern-David-...

there were about Soviet 55milion human casualties on the Eastern Front (39milion military casualties alone)...this shows how big the conflict was on Eastern Front. I have the following games on the subject of EF from operational perspective:

Fire in the East/Scorched Earth/Urals published by GRD
Red Star Rising published by MMP

I didn't have a chance yet to play Red Star Rising but the FITE/SE Europa modules by GRD are fun to play...even though both games are monster wargames. To me though they are classics and worth to have...

On tactical scale I play ASL historical modules like Red Barricades and Valor of the Guards, Stalingrad campaigns.

I always wanted to get Stalingrad game published by L2 (2003) but the price of this game is way to much for me now, since it's out of print.

So much has happened in Eastern Front during WW2 that I could spend my whole life researching it and I still wouldn't be able to find out all about it.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill Lawson
United States
Rutland
Vermont
flag msg tools
New England Patriots
badge
http://thegamebox.gamesontables.com/index.php
mbmb
Wargames » Forums » General
Re: East Front WW 2 Gamers Sound Off
JG53_Jaguar wrote:
For me WW2 in Europe is all about Eastern Front...according to the latest studies in this book here:

http://www.amazon.com/Slaughterhouse-Handbook-Eastern-David-...



So much has happened in Eastern Front during WW2 that I could spend my whole life researching it and I still wouldn't be able to find out all about it.


Thats sort of what I've been doing since I was about 12. Reading everything I get my hands on and playing as many simulations on it as I can! Great games you have!
Nothing beats Fire in the East and Scorched Earth.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Peter
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: East Front WW 2 Gamers Sound Off
billyboy wrote:
JG53_Jaguar wrote:
For me WW2 in Europe is all about Eastern Front...according to the latest studies in this book here:

http://www.amazon.com/Slaughterhouse-Handbook-Eastern-David-...



So much has happened in Eastern Front during WW2 that I could spend my whole life researching it and I still wouldn't be able to find out all about it.


Thats sort of what I've been doing since I was about 12. Reading everything I get my hands on and playing as many simulations on it as I can! Great games you have!
Nothing beats Fire in the East and Scorched Earth.


I know that HMS is working on Total War (updated Fire in the East) but I have some serious doubts if it will be ever published....we shall see, I guess.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill Lawson
United States
Rutland
Vermont
flag msg tools
New England Patriots
badge
http://thegamebox.gamesontables.com/index.php
mbmb
Re: East Front WW 2 Gamers Sound Off
JG53_Jaguar wrote:
billyboy wrote:
JG53_Jaguar wrote:
For me WW2 in Europe is all about Eastern Front...according to the latest studies in this book here:

http://www.amazon.com/Slaughterhouse-Handbook-Eastern-David-...



So much has happened in Eastern Front during WW2 that I could spend my whole life researching it and I still wouldn't be able to find out all about it.


Thats sort of what I've been doing since I was about 12. Reading everything I get my hands on and playing as many simulations on it as I can! Great games you have!
Nothing beats Fire in the East and Scorched Earth.


I know that HMS is working on Total War (updated Fire in the East) but I have some serious doubts if it will be ever published....we shall see, I guess.


I know I'm losing hope on this one.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon
Canada
flag msg tools
mb
Re: East Front WW 2 Gamers Sound Off
Some time back I asked a Forum question for East Front book recommendations. I found the answers very handy, so perhaps others will too, although it repeats some of the books mentioned in this thread. Here it is:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/324624
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
[1]  Prev «  1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [53] | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.