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Subject: 2-player game with Diplomat rss

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Kjetil Bjørnsrud
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As someone statet; the Diplomat in a 2-player game can either be interesting or boring. I would say mostly boring. snore

Would it be an idea to take out the diplomat in a 2-player game?

Is there other abilities (or rases) that also could/should be taken out in a 2-player game?
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Corin A. Friesen
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It's only one.
 
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Allen Doum
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To use the power of Diplomat, a player has to not attack his opponents active race. So it is a double edged sword.

The non-Diplomat player can also attack the Diplomat on the turn he comes on the board with a new race. Enough of that will put the Diplomat into decline.
 
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Jan B.
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Diplomatic is boring? What's boring about a little bit defense?

While the 2-Player-Version is all about attacking, I'm happy about the strategic variety Diplomatic brings to the table.
 
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Kjetil Bjørnsrud
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AllenDoum wrote:
The non-Diplomat player can also attack the Diplomat on the turn he comes on the board with a new race.


Oh! Well... then it's a whole other ball game. We didnt catch that one. The diplomat stays; also in a 2-player game. arrrh
 
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H-B-G
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AllenDoum wrote:

The non-Diplomat player can also attack the Diplomat on the turn he comes on the board with a new race. Enough of that will put the Diplomat into decline.


I don't see why this would be true, since Diplomat targets an opponent rather than a specific race.

So if the players are A & B and A is Diplomat, while B goes into decline. On A's turn they can attack B's declined race and can then target B with Diplomat, which is OK, since B's active race (still to be decided) has not been attacked. On B's turn, A's active race cannot therefore be attached by B's new active race.
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Kjetil Bjørnsrud
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DaveD wrote:
AllenDoum wrote:

The non-Diplomat player can also attack the Diplomat on the turn he comes on the board with a new race. Enough of that will put the Diplomat into decline.


I don't see why this would be true, since Diplomat targets an opponent rather than a specific race.


The rules states; "you may select one opponent whose active race you did not attack this turn as your ally".

So, for player A (the diplomat) to make player B an ally, player B has to have an active race (the one A did not attack). If the active race has gone into decline, player Bs new active race has not been (um...) not attacked yet. So therefore, the new active race could very well attack A, and continue to do so, until A chooses not to attack B again. By this time, with a litle luck, B would be so weak, that it must go into decline.Problem solved.
 
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Jan B.
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The rules clearly state that you name an opponent which active race you didn't attack. That makes Diplomatic most powerful when your opponent will rush the board with his new race, because while you attack his passive tokens and spread out your race all over the place, he must not attack you :)

So DaveD is right.
 
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Kjetil Bjørnsrud
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kent_bro wrote:
The rules clearly state that you name an opponent which active race you didn't attack. That makes Diplomatic most powerful when your opponent will rush the board with his new race, because while you attack his passive tokens and spread out your race all over the place, he must not attack you

So DaveD is right.


The rules states (further) that "he cannot attack your active race until your next turn."

But in the next turn, there are no active race - its in decline. Therefor the deal is off (until the diplomat again chooses to use its ability. But by then, he problably has suffered severe damage etc)
 
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H-B-G
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Znapperhead wrote:
DaveD wrote:
AllenDoum wrote:

The non-Diplomat player can also attack the Diplomat on the turn he comes on the board with a new race. Enough of that will put the Diplomat into decline.


I don't see why this would be true, since Diplomat targets an opponent rather than a specific race.


The rules states; "you may select one opponent whose active race you did not attack this turn as your ally".

So, for player A (the diplomat) to make player B an ally, player B has to have an active race (the one A did not attack). If the active race has gone into decline, player Bs new active race has not been (um...) not attacked yet. So therefore, the new active race could very well attack A, and continue to do so, until A chooses not to attack B again. By this time, with a litle luck, B would be so weak, that it must go into decline.Problem solved.


The rules don't say this, if player B has no active race, then it can't be attacked by definition, so a diplomat player can always make a player who has declined (and is waiting to return with a new active race) an ally.

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Kjetil Bjørnsrud
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DaveD wrote:

The rules don't say this, if player B has no active race, then it can't be attacked by definition, so a diplomat player can always make a player who has declined (and is waiting to return with a new active race) an ally.



I'm not sure that's the case. The way I see it, by the end of his turn, the Diplomat has to not attack an active race to be able to declear A an ally. If A's race has gone into decline, there is no active race to not attack, and the Diplomat can't declear A an ally. The deal is off.
 
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H-B-G
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Znapperhead wrote:
DaveD wrote:

The rules don't say this, if player B has no active race, then it can't be attacked by definition, so a diplomat player can always make a player who has declined (and is waiting to return with a new active race) an ally.



I'm not sure that's the case. The way I see it, by the end of his turn, the Diplomat has to not attack an active race to be able to declear A an ally. If A's race has gone into decline, there is no active race to not attack, and the Diplomat can't declear A an ally. The deal is off.


I guess we'll agree to differ on this, but I think I am right. While this is not proof, I think it is worth noting that Diplomat is obviously derived from the Diplomacy ability in Vinci, where it was specifically noted in the rules that the ability could be applied to a civ that was not on the board.
 
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Kjetil Bjørnsrud
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DaveD wrote:
I guess we'll agree to differ on this,


Thanks for input; I guess you're most likely to be right of the two of us . We'll probably make house rules, for a 2-player game, that either take out the Diplomat entierly, or make use of the "rule" in my former post.

thank you
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Allen Doum
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DaveD wrote:
Znapperhead wrote:
DaveD wrote:

The rules don't say this, if player B has no active race, then it can't be attacked by definition, so a diplomat player can always make a player who has declined (and is waiting to return with a new active race) an ally.



I'm not sure that's the case. The way I see it, by the end of his turn, the Diplomat has to not attack an active race to be able to declear A an ally. If A's race has gone into decline, there is no active race to not attack, and the Diplomat can't declear A an ally. The deal is off.


I guess we'll agree to differ on this, but I think I am right. While this is not proof, I think it is worth noting that Diplomat is obviously derived from the Diplomacy ability in Vinci, where it was specifically noted in the rules that the ability could be applied to a civ that was not on the board.

In Vinci, a player selects their next civ on the turn the active one goes into decline. In Small World, the race is not selected, and therefore not active, until the turn it enters the board.
 
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Kjetil Bjørnsrud
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AllenDoum wrote:

In Vinci, a player selects their next civ on the turn the active one goes into decline. In Small World, the race is not selected, and therefore not active, until the turn it enters the board.


...so the new race, of the player just going into decline, can attack the Diplomat, because the "peace deal" is off?
 
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H-B-G
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AllenDoum wrote:
DaveD wrote:
Znapperhead wrote:
DaveD wrote:

The rules don't say this, if player B has no active race, then it can't be attacked by definition, so a diplomat player can always make a player who has declined (and is waiting to return with a new active race) an ally.



I'm not sure that's the case. The way I see it, by the end of his turn, the Diplomat has to not attack an active race to be able to declear A an ally. If A's race has gone into decline, there is no active race to not attack, and the Diplomat can't declear A an ally. The deal is off.


I guess we'll agree to differ on this, but I think I am right. While this is not proof, I think it is worth noting that Diplomat is obviously derived from the Diplomacy ability in Vinci, where it was specifically noted in the rules that the ability could be applied to a civ that was not on the board.

In Vinci, a player selects their next civ on the turn the active one goes into decline. In Small World, the race is not selected, and therefore not active, until the turn it enters the board.


Yes, but as previously stated, Diplomat does not target a race it targets an opponent, so it does not matter that he doesn't have an active race at the time the ability is used.
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Allen Doum
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Small World » Forums » Rules
Re: 2-player game with Diplomat
DaveD wrote:
Yes, but as previously stated, Diplomat does not target a race it targets an opponent, so it does not matter that he doesn't have an active race at the time the ability is used.


Quote:
The rules states; "you may select one opponent whose active race you did not attack this turn as your ally".


So there is a stated limit on which player can be targeted.

However, this may be a situation where the English translation does not agree with others. There have been other questions caused by the English translation. Can anyone check to see what the other Translations have to say about this.

Edit: Since this thread has rolled of the front page and was about the 2 player game anyway, I will re-ask the question in a new thread.
 
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Mister Phreeze
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There's another thread here in the rules section discussing the diplomat and though there are people arguing both ways of looking at it, it seems more people are going with the point of view that, if the diplomat player did not attack an opponent's active race, regardless of whether that player has an active race at the moment or not, the diplomat can select that opponent to be allies.

This is the way my gaming group decided to go with the diplomat, and there is one other way to look at it that would support this as well:

Imagine you are the first player, starting the game. You select he race that has the diplomat power attached to it. Since none of the other players in the game have had the opportunity to select a race yet, if you went with the argument that players without an active race cannot be the target of the diplomat, then the diplomat power is completely useless to you, being the 1st player in the game. This would be the ONLY special power that would be useless to the 1st player of the game (as all other powers can and would be useful to the 1st player), and personally, I can't see them intending the power to be used in such a way as to make that the case.
 
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Dave J McWeasely
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Your new argument doesn't hold up.

Diplomat is still useful on turns after the first one.

Further, there is no rule that says a power must be useful. Picking Sorcerers as the first turn of the first player is also useless for that turn. Picking Elves on the last turn of the last player is also useless. That's just too bad. Not everything is useful.
 
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