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At the Gates of Loyang» Forums » General

Subject: The price of At the Gates of Loyang rss

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Tim Seitz
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grant5 wrote:
And only in Boardgame Land do people have the misplaced sense of entitlement that makes them think they shouldn't have to pay a fair price for a game because it doesn't weigh enough.

I'd like you to point out where people are suggesting they should not have to pay a fair price for a game. Because i am of the opinion you are not going to find it. At least not anywhere here.

In fact, the exact argument they are making is that the price is NOT fair. And the evidence they have to support the unfairness is that in comparison to other games of the same caliber components and gameplay, Loyang costs a LOT more.

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Grant
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celiborn wrote:
grant5 wrote:
To say this game is overpriced because it's not a good game is a perfectly reasonable statement (even though I disagree with that statement). To say it's overpriced because it lacks mass is just ridiculous.

There are lots of reasons people are willing (or not) to buy a game. The rules are one -- see most RPGs, which are just rules. The bits are another -- see Space Hulk 3d Edition. There are intangibles, like a developer's past work and the buyer's personal tastes.

Absolutely. I was giving examples of reasonable and ridiculous statements. That was not intended to be a comprehensive list of why a person may choose to buy a game.

celiborn wrote:
And then there is the comparison to similar products. If a game like Agricola, with boards and tons of cards and bits, costs $55, it's perfectly valid to question why a game like Loyang, with much fewer bits, costs so much more. The point isn't that the developer is wrong to charge that much. The question, rather, is why we should be willing to pay $70 when an equally good (perhaps even better), comparable game is available for less.

Very true and a valid point. But I wasn't responding to a comparison of the prices. I was responding to a post that was solely about the value of a game based on its physical weight.

celiborn wrote:
One last point. Buying a game isn't an act of charity or a pat on a developer's head. Consumers don't pay for things because they want to reward a developer's hard work. In other words, it doesn't matter to most people whether Uwe Rosenberg came up with Loyang (or Agricola, or whatever) in a flash of inspiration and a week of work, or after years of toil and personal sacrifice -- just as developers don't care whether I found my $70 on the street or earned it by laboring in the fields. What matters on both ends is what each party receives. Uwe's tortured creative process may explain why Loyang is priced at $70. But it doesn't mean I have to be happy about that price.

Ok, I can agree with that.
 
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Jon W
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out4blood wrote:
the evidence they have to support the unfairness is that in comparison to other games of the same caliber components and gameplay, Loyang costs a LOT more.

This is what bugs me about these white knight, condescending, "I don't buy my games by the pound" posts. It's a backhand slap at publishers who do bother to offer a lot of component value, as they must be skimping on the gameplay.

Sure, if you don't like the price, don't pay it, free market and all that. But it shouldn't surprise anyone that people comparing very similar things are going to latch on to something that can be objectively measured: the stuff you get in the box.

But no, apparently you have to write a freaking disclaimer to even hint that something might be overpriced relative to its competitors.... shake
 
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Grant
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out4blood wrote:
grant5 wrote:
And only in Boardgame Land do people have the misplaced sense of entitlement that makes them think they shouldn't have to pay a fair price for a game because it doesn't weigh enough.

I'd like you to point out where people are suggesting they should not have to pay a fair price for a game. Because i am of the opinion you are not going to find it. At least not anywhere here.

Ok, that is a good point. I was equating "I think the price is unfair" with "The price is fair, but I shouldn't have to pay it", and that is an inappropriate jump on my part. You are correct, no one that I have seen has claimed they shouldn't have to pay a fair price. The debate is about whether or not the price is fair.

out4blood wrote:
In fact, the exact argument they are making is that the price is NOT fair. And the evidence they have to support the unfairness is that in comparison to other games of the same caliber components and gameplay, Loyang costs a LOT more.

I was not responding to a post that compared Loyang to other similar games. That would be a valid discussion. I was responding to a post about the game being too physically light to justify the price tag.
 
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Jon W
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grant5 wrote:
I was not responding to a post that compared Loyang to other similar games.

Perhaps the comparison was implicit?
 
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Tim Seitz
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waddball wrote:
grant5 wrote:
I was not responding to a post that compared Loyang to other similar games.

Perhaps the comparison was implicit?

Of course it is. Our personal perception of value is based on our previous experience with like items. When someone says "$70 is too much for this stuff," they are generally implicitly/unconsciously comparing against the "stuff" that has come in other games that cost $70 and/or the lower cost of other games that had similar "stuff."
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out4blood wrote:
Our personal perception of value is based on our previous experience with like items. When someone says "$70 is too much for this stuff," they are generally implicitly/unconsciously comparing against the "stuff" that has come in other games that cost $70 and/or the lower cost of other games that had similar "stuff."

You don't say....

whistle
 
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Grant
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out4blood wrote:
waddball wrote:
grant5 wrote:
I was not responding to a post that compared Loyang to other similar games.

Perhaps the comparison was implicit?

Of course it is. Our personal perception of value is based on our previous experience with like items. When someone says "$70 is too much for this stuff," they are generally implicitly/unconsciously comparing against the "stuff" that has come in other games that cost $70 and/or the lower cost of other games that had similar "stuff."


Ah, now I see. Just who is a part of the group of people you refer to when you say "Our personal perception"? That sounds like you think we should all percieve things just like you do. That we should all.... act the same? I believe the expression was.... "Only in Boardgame Land".

In reality you have no idea what influences other people's perceptions, and for you to suggest in such a flippant way that you know what another person was thinking ("Of course it is"), is in fact the most disingenuous thing I've heard in a very long time.
 
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Alan Goodrich
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Personally, I don't think $70 is too much for this game. If I had thought it was too much, I'd have waited for the reprint - I paid the extra to get the game early, and because I had a feeling it would be good. (It is).

I really don't care how much stuff is in the box, as long as the game play is good - that is, as long as the stuff in the box is appropriate for the game. It's not like there was a bait-and-switch here. We all knew it was a card game with vegimeeples beforehand, and the box hardly makes a secret of what the components are. Agricola weighed more because it needed more components, whereas Loyang needs less. The components in each case are well done and high quality. Would it have been better for the game to be overproduced just to get more stuff in the box?

This is a game, like Agricola and Le Havre, that I will play many times over, so I think the money is well spent. I don't see what the bitching is about, especially since the reason for the higher price has been explained. If you think the game costs too much, don't buy it. If the reprint wasn't coming (likely at a lower price) I might be sympathetic, but I don't see how anyone should be unhappy with paying around what they paid for the other games in the Harvest Trilogy for this one. If you measure play value in heft of packaging, there is always Fantasy Flight or Games Workshop...
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Joe Salamone
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I don't care much about game prices as long as I end up getting a reasonable deal. If a game is around $70 just about everywhere, then so be it, I'll buy it if it interests me. But I'd be a bit peeved (just a bit . . . maybe for a day) if I bought a game for $70 and then found it somewhere else for $50. A difference of $5 or so wouldn't bother me much, but $15 - $20 would make me swear at least once.
 
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Jon W
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grant5 wrote:
In reality you have no idea what influences other people's perceptions

I bet you didn't know that my psychic powers are due to me being born with a tail. My momma had it surgically removed and kept it in the medicine cabinet between the 4-Way Cold Tablets and the monkey blood.

Tangential pseudo-quotes from David Byrne movies aside, if you really believe what you wrote here, you must have grave difficulty communicating about anything.

But perhaps you're right. Perhaps we really do need to provide all sorts of disclaimers and unambiguously establish our definitions before posting anything, because we have no shared contexts. Sounds fun.
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Tim Seitz
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grant5 wrote:
out4blood wrote:
waddball wrote:
grant5 wrote:
I was not responding to a post that compared Loyang to other similar games.

Perhaps the comparison was implicit?

Of course it is. Our personal perception of value is based on our previous experience with like items. When someone says "$70 is too much for this stuff," they are generally implicitly/unconsciously comparing against the "stuff" that has come in other games that cost $70 and/or the lower cost of other games that had similar "stuff."


Ah, now I see. Just who is a part of the group of people you refer to when you say "Our personal perception"? That sounds like you think we should all percieve things just like you do. That we should all.... act the same? I believe the expression was.... "Only in Boardgame Land".


Humans. YOUR experience is what drives YOUR values.

How you can equate that with sameness is beyond me. Now you're just being argumentative.
 
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Jon W
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cayluster wrote:
If you measure play value in heft of packaging, there is always Fantasy Flight or Games Workshop...

And here come the backhands....
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Grant
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out4blood wrote:
grant5 wrote:
out4blood wrote:
waddball wrote:
grant5 wrote:
I was not responding to a post that compared Loyang to other similar games.

Perhaps the comparison was implicit?

Of course it is. Our personal perception of value is based on our previous experience with like items. When someone says "$70 is too much for this stuff," they are generally implicitly/unconsciously comparing against the "stuff" that has come in other games that cost $70 and/or the lower cost of other games that had similar "stuff."


Ah, now I see. Just who is a part of the group of people you refer to when you say "Our personal perception"? That sounds like you think we should all percieve things just like you do. That we should all.... act the same? I believe the expression was.... "Only in Boardgame Land".


Humans. YOUR experience is what drives YOUR values.

How you can equate that with sameness is beyond me. Now you're just being argumentative.


Hmph. Well, you may be right. It's been a long day and I am feeling argumentative. That is probably not the best frame of mind in which to have a discussion like this. It's time to give it a rest I suppose.
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Joe Salamone
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I bought it from gamesurplus.com ($52 + 8 shipping). Received it yesterday and played the solo version last night. After 1 play, it may not be worth the price. I agree that the box is 75% air and 25% game components, but I'm okay with that. The reason it may not be worth the price is I didn't find it to be a great game. Don't get me wrong, it's decent (and maybe better against live opponents), but it doesn't measure up to Agricola or Le Havre. It's basically buy, trade or sell vegetables and use cash to "buy" your way along the scoring path. (I knew this was what the game was all about before I bought it, but I thought it would be more engaging). Who knows, maybe after a few more plays I'll "see the light" and rate it higher.
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Tim Seitz
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Like most games, it's better with other people.
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At the Gates of Loyang » Forums » General
Re: The price of At the Gates of Loyang
out4blood wrote:
Like most games, it's better with other people.


True, but I have a great time playing Le Havre and Agricola (not to mention about a dozen other games) solitaire. Loyang doesn't quite measure up to what I was expecting.
 
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