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Subject: Movement Question rss

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Jim Miller
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I've read through the rules and searched through the 'rules forum', but have not found a definitive answer to the following question.

Understanding that all fleet movement is completed, before army movement is commenced; is all movement considered simultaneous? Or is each piece moved and potential conflict resolved, before moving the next.

I remember reading that movement was simultaneous, but I can't find the reference, so it may just be my imagination.

Jim
 
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Brian Brokaw
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Are you asking if Fleet and Army movement is simultaneous? No, it is not. Fleets finish all moves and battles before any Armies get to move (via convoy or not).

If you are asking about if all the Army units move simultaneously, then I don't think it matters.

If I move 1 of my guys into a contested region and we fight, 1-for-1 are taken from the board. The rest of my guys still get to move and potentially fight.

Just don't get confused about which units have already moved.

In a game like Antike, where units can do stuff after moving, the order matters. But in Imperial, I don't think it matters.
 
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Brian Brokaw
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oh wait... i guess if you were "testing the waters" it would matter.

If you choose to move one guy at a time, I would think your opponent gets to make a new fight or friendly decision each time.

If you choose to move all units in, your opponent has only 1 decision to make.

Hmmmm. I really don't know what the rule is. Sorry. (But I've always just moved all my units into a region before asking my opponent if he wants to be friendly.)
 
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Evan Stegman
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I have wondered about this myself as it can make a difference.

Suppose:

Nation X moves a fleet into sea territory A where Nation Y has a fleet.

Nation X wants to use their fleet to convoy an army across that sea zone so asks to be friendly.

Nation Y agrees.

Nation X moves two fleets into sea territory B where Nation Y has one fleet.

Nation X declares themselves hostile to take the territory.

Can Nation Y then change their minds about being friendly in sea territory A?

Can Nation Y say they want to wait until Nation X declares all their moves and intentions before deciding?
 
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Paulo Soledade
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EvanMinn wrote:

Can Nation Y then change their minds about being friendly in sea territory A?

Can Nation Y say they want to wait until Nation X declares all their moves and intentions before deciding?


I would say no. The decision to agree was made so until Y's next turn that fleet is friendly.
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Evan Stegman
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While I can understand the reasoning behind it, that brings up timing issues and issues about what agreements are binding.

What about a situation where X & Y were sharing a space and being friendly before this maneuver but there is no maneuvering going on in that space: Can X force Y to declare whether they are going to remain friendly before X declares any other movement?

What if X says "I won't attack you elsewhere." so Y agrees to be friendly. Can X renege and attacks in a different space anyway? Are all agreements binding or only ones where the non-active player says they will be friendly?

I think it might be simpler to just say 'all movement is done simultaneously and until the fleet movement step is over, either party can declare themselves hostile in shared spaces." with a similar rule for the army movement step. That elimates the timing and 'binding' issues.

I can see some pros and cons to both possible ways of doing it.

I have known this was unclear from in rules but have purposely avoided bringing it up in games because there is no definitive answer. But since the can of worms is open now...
 
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Paulo Soledade
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We think of this rule as a decision to make at a specific time. This means that, in your example and since all ships move first, player x asked a question to player y. He agreed. He can't move back in his decision unless you all agree that he may go back in his decision. It's not that his decision is binding (like a future promise), the thing is that this decision is like building a factory or stop at the investor. If a player makes that decision of building a factory well he builds a factory and it's the next nation's turn.

After all ships were moved, with agreements of peace or not, the active nation/player can do whatever he wants with his land troops and that includes invading player Y home country and even destroy one of his factories. The previous decision of accepting peace in a given sea zone was made when moving ships.
 
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Evan Stegman
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I agree about the fleet and army steps being completely separate things. All examples above are meant to be read as limited to the fleet step in their entirety with everything referred to as happening before moving onto the army step (there can be no timing or binding issues between them as the rules are clear they are separate steps).

With that in mind, are the answers to the above questions yeses or noes?
 
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Romain Jacques
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Bhob wrote:
I've read through the rules and searched through the 'rules forum', but have not found a definitive answer to the following question.

Understanding that all fleet movement is completed, before army movement is commenced; is all movement considered simultaneous? Or is each piece moved and potential conflict resolved, before moving the next.

I remember reading that movement was simultaneous, but I can't find the reference, so it may just be my imagination.

Jim


No there are not. For example, if an hostile army is blocking your rail system. You can move one army, destroy it, and now you can move your other armies using your rail system as if the hostile army was never there. So, you dont make all your moves simultaneously before making your attacks.
 
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Ray
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From the game rules perspective there is no such think as peace. When a move is made combat can occur if either party wishes. but once both have declined combat that move is done. finished. and no more combat or reversing of past combat declinations can occur in that space until the next move in it. its on a space by space basis as moved into and only then.
 
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Jim Miller
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Romain, do you have rules reference for that opinion? I did not find one.

...and if we follow that interpretation, then does each army that serially enters a particular area (during one movement phase) trigger the decision to react with peace/war?

-Can war be started with the 3rd army that entered a province, when the first 2 entered peacefully?

-Are current occupants allowed to war against the army when it reaches a size of 2, after declaring peace when the first one entered?

The general consensus from this thread seems indicates there may be no 'official ruling'.

Are there any folks here who play on BSW? How is the game implemented there?

I'm still too new to the game to feel comfortable playing on BSW.

Jim
 
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Jim Miller
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For the sake of simplicity, that is how we are currently playing. Although we are also playing that no other armies can enter that area, as that would trigger another round of peace/war declarations . . . which would clearly violate current rulings.

Is that how you're playing it Ray?

Jim
 
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Romain Jacques
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Bhob wrote:
Romain, do you have rules reference for that opinion? I did not find one.

The question was asked in feb 2007 and the author answer is here:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/150057/railroad-movement
Bhob wrote:

...and if we follow that interpretation, then does each army that serially enters a particular area (during one movement phase) trigger the decision to react with peace/war?

-Can war be started with the 3rd army that entered a province, when the first 2 entered peacefully?

-Are current occupants allowed to war against the army when it reaches a size of 2, after declaring peace when the first one entered?

The general consensus from this thread seems indicates there may be no 'official ruling'.

Are there any folks here who play on BSW? How is the game implemented there?

Units are move one by one, if they chose to be friendly and it is accepted by the countries occupying the territory, they will stay friendly for the rest of the turn. And yes you can accept two friendly units and decide to be hostile to the third one. This the way it is palyed in BSW too.
Bhob wrote:

I'm still too new to the game to feel comfortable playing on BSW.

Jim

I understand your feelings, there are a lot of sharks over there.
 
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Tim Burgener
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Mmkay, so here's another question, just to throw us into another loop.

We've dealt with apples to apples here and oranges to oranges so far. Navy moves, in, deals with navy, great so far. Now here's my question, using a specific example (even though more examples could be given for the same problem):

-----

France controls the Western Mediterranean Sea with a 2 sea units, as well as Algeria with 2 land unit and Spain with 1 units.

Italy controls Tunis with 1 land unit, and has just produces 1 land unit in Rome and 1 sea unit at both Genoa and Naples.

Italy moves the 2 sea units into the Western Mediterranean Sea and declares them friendly.

France agrees to keep its 2 sea units friendly.

Italy ferries its land units from both Tunis and Rome through the boats into Spain, declaring it a hostile action. Pieces are removed from both sides and Italy seizes control of Spain from France.

-----

A very explicit example, but the point is this question: Can a friendly ship transport hostile armies?

And if so, does the ship remain friendly or become hostile itself?
 
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Romain Jacques
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Palaios wrote:
A very explicit example, but the point is this question: Can a friendly ship transport hostile armies??

Yes
Palaios wrote:

And if so, does the ship remain friendly or become hostile itself?

No. When a unit is declared friendly by both sides, its status does not change even if it convoys hostile units.
 
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Tim Burgener
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Thanks, do you have a rule reference there? A friend of mine is a bit of a rules lawyer and will probably hound me for one.
 
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Johann 17
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After careful consideration, I have left a message with the game designer
through this website. Hopefully, he will either respond to me directly or to the post.

johnfull
 
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Walther Gerdts
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All movements are resolved one after another.
In particular, a "friendly" fleet may later convoy a hostile army (as explained in the example above). That's the way it is handled at BSW as well.
If we run into a situation like this, we usually ask: "Hey, as you put a fleet into that sea, can I be sure that it won't convoy hostile armies later on?". Depending on the answer, we are free to destroy the fleet ourselves, before it can do any harm. And if we don't get any answer, destroy it as well.
Although the answer is not binding (the aggressor could decide regardless), a wrong answer would mean a significant loss of reputation for him. No-one would believe him anymore for the rest of the game - posing serious doubts at his diplomatic skills.
Hope this helps?
Mac
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Johann 17
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Thank you for taking the time to respond to the question at had.

Mr. Gerdts
 
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Romain Jacques
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Imperial » Forums » Rules
Re: Movement Question
MacGerdts wrote:
All movements are resolved one after another.
In particular, a "friendly" fleet may later convoy a hostile army (as explained in the example above). That's the way it is handled at BSW as well.
If we run into a situation like this, we usually ask: "Hey, as you put a fleet into that sea, can I be sure that it won't convoy hostile armies later on?". Depending on the answer, we are free to destroy the fleet ourselves, before it can do any harm. And if we don't get any answer, destroy it as well.
Although the answer is not binding (the aggressor could decide regardless), a wrong answer would mean a significant loss of reputation for him. No-one would believe him anymore for the rest of the game - posing serious doubts at his diplomatic skills.
Hope this helps?
Mac

I am glad you have not changed your answer over the years.
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