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Dominion: Alchemy» Forums » General

Subject: Does anyone else hate Philosopher's Stone? rss

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Mike Young
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Played a few games against my wife last night and it seemed like every other turn we had to stop while she counted her deck and discard pile. Sure, she was getting it to be worth 5 coins each turn, but we had to keep pausing the game. And that was really annoying to me.

My wife, however, loves the card. Go figure.
 
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Roberta Taylor
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When I get one in my hand, I immediately count my deck and discard pile. I can usually have this done before it's my turn, and it doesn't slow the game very much. Nowhere near as much as a deck with a golem...
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BT Carpenter
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It is a card that works well in an online implementation when that counting can be done for you.

As to counting ahead of time - that's not necessarily kosher, since cards in hand and in play do not count!
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Matthew Saloff
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I don't understand complaints against Philosopher's Stone. It takes like 5 seconds to count through your deck/discard pile.

Other cards that take at least that much time to resolve (or longer) off the top of my head: Spy, Saboteur, Scout, Scrying Pool, Adventurer, Navigator, Masquerade, Apothecary, Ghost Ship, Embargo, Swindler, Library, Golem, Warehouse, Pirate Ship, etc, etc, etc.

It doesn't take any longer than probably a third of the games' cards. So no, Philosopher's Stone doesn't bother me.
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Fred Snertz
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I dislike slow moving games of Dominion and Alchemy tends to slow the games down but I love this card (especially with Herbalist). Maybe its because, so far I have been the main one in my group purchasing it so I haven't had to wait through a lot of counting. But honestly the counting does not take long and I can do it while I'm waiting for my opponent to play their 15 actions and draw 20 cards. By the time its my turn I almost always have the count. If I'm playing it every other turn then I don't really need to recount each time.
 
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Rick Teverbaugh
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byronczimmer wrote:
It is a card that works well in an online implementation when that counting can be done for you.

As to counting ahead of time - that's not necessarily kosher, since cards in hand and in play do not count!


That's not really true. It would be fine because unless you have some duration cards in play you won't have any cards in play if it's not your turn anyway.
 
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Stephen Rochelle
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I don't like it, but I don't like it because I don't think it's a good buy in most action-chain-heavy (i.e. most Alchemy-including) setups. Count time isn't a big deal, but I will admit that the two issues are tied together, as a more-valuable PS necessarily requires more counting.
 
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C. B.
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RobertaTaylor wrote:
When I get one in my hand, I immediately count my deck and discard pile. I can usually have this done before it's my turn, and it doesn't slow the game very much. Nowhere near as much as a deck with a golem...


and it's not like the opponents can do a lot with the knowledge you have one in hand.
 
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Matt E
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Very technically, it's against the rules to count your discard pile unless a card tells you to do it. So, until you've played your Philosopher's Stone during your buy phase, you're not allowed to count your discard pile.

If the person playing it doesn't have additional buys, though, they can stop counting once it would give them 8 coins.
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Chris Dieckmann
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I was worried about this card as well if the plays with it I find that the counting isnt that long, and that it's fairly easy to track depending on your hand (mostly whether you have +card actions in your current hand that will affect the number of cards in your play area). Don't worry to much about this card adding to length. It's the golem that does the slowing most of all. Especially on BSW I don't understand why they don't let you turn off the silly animation and swooshing of the cards that just add extra time to the game without being necessary.
 
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Rob Neuhaus
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LastFootnote wrote:
Very technically, it's against the rules to count your discard pile unless a card tells you to do it. So, until you've played your Philosopher's Stone during your buy phase, you're not allowed to count your discard pile.

If the person playing it doesn't have additional buys, though, they can stop counting once it would give them 8 coins.


Does anyone know why there is the rule that you can't count your discard?
 
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David desJardins
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rrenaud wrote:
Does anyone know why there is the rule that you can't count your discard?


I think either or both of these reasons:

1. To prevent people from slowing down the game by looking through their discard pile to try to figure out what's left in their deck.

2. Because there is a possibility that future cards could depend on the order of the discard pile and so to avoid the risk of disturbing it.
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Donald X.
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Dominion: Alchemy » Forums » General
Re: Does anyone else hate Philosopher's Stone?
rrenaud wrote:
Does anyone know why there is the rule that you can't count your discard?

You can't look through your discard pile because some people would slow down the game by repeatedly pawing through it, considering stuff.

Originally you could count it. Valerie didn't like that you had to count it face down, and that we'd have to tell you that. So you can't count it either.
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Jeremy Lennert
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rickert wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
It is a card that works well in an online implementation when that counting can be done for you.

As to counting ahead of time - that's not necessarily kosher, since cards in hand and in play do not count!


That's not really true. It would be fine because unless you have some duration cards in play you won't have any cards in play if it's not your turn anyway.

You seem to be missing the point. Duration cards already in play before your turn will still be in play during your turn, so that doesn't change anything. But if any of your actions cause you to draw, discard, or gain cards, that will add/remove cards from your deck before you play Philosopher's Stone, thus changing its value.

You could keep a count and try to add and subtract during your turn as your deck changes...if the other players are all confident that you won't make an error. You could also theoretically just keep a running tally of your deck size at all times during the game, but one mistake and you'll be out of synch forever...
 
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Rick Teverbaugh
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Antistone wrote:
rickert wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
It is a card that works well in an online implementation when that counting can be done for you.

As to counting ahead of time - that's not necessarily kosher, since cards in hand and in play do not count!


That's not really true. It would be fine because unless you have some duration cards in play you won't have any cards in play if it's not your turn anyway.

You seem to be missing the point. Duration cards already in play before your turn will still be in play during your turn, so that doesn't change anything. But if any of your actions cause you to draw, discard, or gain cards, that will add/remove cards from your deck before you play Philosopher's Stone, thus changing its value.

You could keep a count and try to add and subtract during your turn as your deck changes...if the other players are all confident that you won't make an error. You could also theoretically just keep a running tally of your deck size at all times during the game, but one mistake and you'll be out of synch forever...


But if you total your cards in deck and discard while your opponents are playing to save time, how hard is it to adjust that total while playing your hand? Very, very easy to me.
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David desJardins
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rickert wrote:
But if you total your cards in deck and discard while your opponents are playing to save time, how hard is it to adjust that total while playing your hand?


Hard enough that I wouldn't trust my opponents to do it. People make enough mistakes as it is.
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Matt E
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DaviddesJ wrote:
rickert wrote:
But if you total your cards in deck and discard while your opponents are playing to save time, how hard is it to adjust that total while playing your hand?


Hard enough that I wouldn't trust my opponents to do it. People make enough mistakes as it is.

Agreed.
 
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Fred Snertz
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Maybe you guys play for money or in tournaments, or are much more serious about this than I am but, if my opponent (or I) occasionally miscount, I'm okay with that. I trust all my friends not to do that on purpose. Its worth it to keep the game moving.
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Rick Teverbaugh
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shrimple wrote:
Maybe you guys play for money or in tournaments, or are much more serious about this than I am but, if my opponent (or I) occasionally miscount, I'm okay with that. I trust all my friends not to do that on purpose. Its worth it to keep the game moving.


Absolutely. If you don't trust your opponent to keep track of his draw after he counts it, why would you trust him to count it correctly in the first place?
 
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Ben Pinchback
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Frankly I feel the same way about many of these new Alchemy cards. They are slow and wonky.
 
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David desJardins
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rickert wrote:
If you don't trust your opponent to keep track of his draw after he counts it, why would you trust him to count it correctly in the first place?


Because remembering numbers and making arithmetic adjustments is way more error-prone than counting.

I don't worry about cheating. But I know from experience that even highly technical people make common mistakes, and in their favor more often than not. That's the nature of how people think.
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Rick Teverbaugh
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DaviddesJ wrote:
rickert wrote:
If you don't trust your opponent to keep track of his draw after he counts it, why would you trust him to count it correctly in the first place?


Because remembering numbers and making arithmetic adjustments is way more error-prone than counting.

I don't worry about cheating. But I know from experience that even highly technical people make common mistakes, and in their favor more often than not. That's the nature of how people think.


So you think adding and subtracting are too much for your foes? Whatever.

You aren't worried about cheating but you do think that when they miscalculate it will more often be in their favor than yours? Exactly what is your definition of cheating?
 
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Rick Teverbaugh
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bno70_1 wrote:
Frankly I feel the same way about many of these new Alchemy cards. They are slow and wonky.


I've never been sure what "wonky" means?

Also, exactly what is the hurry? Why does it matter if a game of Dominion takes 40 minutes instead of 30 or 35? We could just toss a coin. Heads you win, tails I do. It will give us a winner and loser and won't take much time. Plus think of the money saved by not buying these games.
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Jeff Chamberlain
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rickert wrote:

But if you total your cards in deck and discard while your opponents are playing to save time, how hard is it to adjust that total while playing your hand? Very, very easy to me.


Depends on your hand. If you are playing relatively simple hands with not a lot of draw power, its easy. But if you are playing the kinds of decks that seem popular: lots and lots of non-terminal cards which also draw playing is succession, the act of keeping track of that as it progresses is more effort then simply doing a quick count when you are done.
 
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Rick Teverbaugh
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Klintus Fang wrote:
rickert wrote:

But if you total your cards in deck and discard while your opponents are playing to save time, how hard is it to adjust that total while playing your hand? Very, very easy to me.


Depends on your hand. If you are playing relatively simple hands with not a lot of draw power, its easy. But if you are playing the kinds of decks that seem popular: lots and lots of non-terminal cards which also draw playing is succession, the act of keeping track of that as it progresses is more effort then simply doing a quick count when you are done.


But isn't that highly unlikely? Doesn't drawing a big hand nerf the power of the Stone?
 
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