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Subject: Invincible 2-Player Race and Special Ability combinations rss

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Paul Silva
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Bourne
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I recently purchased this game and came across combinations that I'm not sure can be defeated. I'd love some insight an where I might be missing something.

Firstly - Diplomat+ Any race
If I chose Diplomat Giants for example as the first turn, and conquered 11 regions and have not attacked the other opponent. They will not be able to attack me next turn. I then would abandon one region and deploy him and conquer the region I just abandoned, not attacking my opponent and score the same 11 points. I don't see how the other player would be able to win.

Secondly - Elves + any ability
If all the elves are returned to the hand of the opponent and not discarded to the tray and redeployed at the end of the turn, is there any way to ever get rid of any of the Elves? It seems that they will have all the Elf tokens they originally selected throughout the game. They will not lose any from being attacked and never need to go In Decline while they will be able to decrease the other race when they attack, forcing they eventually to go In Decline.

Am I missing something in the rules that would change these scenarios?

Thanks for the help!
 
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Steven
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sardonyx47 wrote:
Firstly - Diplomat+ Any race
If I chose Diplomat Giants for example as the first turn, and conquered 11 regions and have not attacked the other opponent. They will not be able to attack me next turn. I then would abandon one region and deploy him and conquer the region I just abandoned, not attacking my opponent and score the same 11 points. I don't see how the other player would be able to win.

For 2 player games, I think most people play without diplomat for precisely this reason.
 
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David K.
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sardonyx47 wrote:

Secondly - Elves + any ability
If all the elves are returned to the hand of the opponent and not discarded to the tray and redeployed at the end of the turn, is there any way to ever get rid of any of the Elves? It seems that they will have all the Elf tokens they originally selected throughout the game. They will not lose any from being attacked and never need to go In Decline while they will be able to decrease the other race when they attack, forcing they eventually to go In Decline.


Sorcerers are the Elves natural predator.
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Seth Owen
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celiborn wrote:
sardonyx47 wrote:
Firstly - Diplomat+ Any race
If I chose Diplomat Giants for example as the first turn, and conquered 11 regions and have not attacked the other opponent. They will not be able to attack me next turn. I then would abandon one region and deploy him and conquer the region I just abandoned, not attacking my opponent and score the same 11 points. I don't see how the other player would be able to win.

For 2 player games, I think most people play without diplomat for precisely this reason.


For a two-player game I always simply omit the Diplomat ability. Sometimes it won't matter (Diplomat Dwarves still won't scare anyone) but it does lead to a boring game in many cases.
 
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Paul Silva
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Is the only way for Elves to be defeated in a 2P game using Sorcerers? If they don't happen to come up early in a game, then likely Elves win going away. Thanks.
 
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Chris Ferejohn
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sardonyx47 wrote:

Firstly - Diplomat+ Any race
If I chose Diplomat Giants for example as the first turn, and conquered 11 regions and have not attacked the other opponent. They will not be able to attack me next turn. I then would abandon one region and deploy him and conquer the region I just abandoned, not attacking my opponent and score the same 11 points. I don't see how the other player would be able to win.


First of all, why are you abandoning and reconquering a region? This is not required.

Second of all, if you are getting 11 points/turn and nothing else, the other player should be able to demolish you. They can spread out an initial race, decline it, and then keep growing with another race, resulting in way more than 11 points/turn. Now, it leads to a somewhat boring game, which is why you may want to remove diplomat for 2P games, but it's hardly invincible.

Quote:
Secondly - Elves + any ability
If all the elves are returned to the hand of the opponent and not discarded to the tray and redeployed at the end of the turn, is there any way to ever get rid of any of the Elves? It seems that they will have all the Elf tokens they originally selected throughout the game. They will not lose any from being attacked and never need to go In Decline while they will be able to decrease the other race when they attack, forcing they eventually to go In Decline.


Again, you can merrily demolish any in decline race they have and stick to stacks of 2+ mountains to box the elves in. Sure you can't kill them, but you can certainly prevent them from scoring many points if they are just going to refuse to decline their elves. And as someone else pointed out, Sorcerers ftw.
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Chris Ferejohn
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sardonyx47 wrote:
Is the only way for Elves to be defeated in a 2P game using Sorcerers? If they don't happen to come up early in a game, then likely Elves win going away. Thanks.


It is completely unnecessary to destroy player's tokens to win the game.
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Mike Em
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I don't think anything in Small World is an "Invincible" combination, its just a matter of the other player figuring out how to counter you best with what they have available. And the longer you give them the run of the rest of the board, the easier time they'll have with powers and races that give extra vp for certain spaces.
 
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Chris Olsen
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You wouldn't be able to conquer 11 regions the first turn.
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Jonas
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jabooty3 wrote:
You wouldn't be able to conquer 11 regions the first turn.
.

That's exactly what I was wondering, my guess he is using only one token to conquer empty regions, not 2. A mistake I did early on.
 
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That would be the "2 plus the number of cardboard" invasion rule - it costs you 2 + the number of cardboard in the region to conquer it.

I cannot say if that is 100% accurate with expansions, but that is how I was taught at a con and everyone got it.
 
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Justin Moore
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cferejohn wrote:


Second of all, if you are getting 11 points/turn and nothing else, the other player should be able to demolish you. They can spread out an initial race, decline it, and then keep growing with another race, resulting in way more than 11 points/turn. Now, it leads to a somewhat boring game, which is why you may want to remove diplomat for 2P games, but it's hardly invincible.


Really? Most games I've played 110 points would give you a really good shot at winning.
 
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Alex Jets
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Merchant Elves are difficult to outscore. You pretty much must attack them to limit their spread. You need a good attacking race like Orcs or something with pillaging/ransacking to defeat them. Or the trusty sorcerers.
 
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Bryan Stout
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sardonyx47 wrote:
I recently purchased this game and came across combinations that I'm not sure can be defeated. I'd love some insight an where I might be missing something.

You are missing something, namely how basic conquest works. Your tokens start in your hand, and to conquer a region you place 2 tokens in the target region, plus 1 for each enemy token, mountain, fortress, lair or bivouac. You must leave those tokens there, and use whatever is left in your hand for further conquest. When your conquest is over, you may redeploy your tokens among your conquered regions as you see fit.

So any race's first turn will conquer at most half as many regions as they have tokens, unless they have Commando or some similar ability.

Look over some of the games in the Play By Forum section, to see lots of examples of conquest and other things.


Quote:
Firstly - Diplomat+ Any race
If I chose Diplomat Giants for example as the first turn, and conquered 11 regions and have not attacked the other opponent. They will not be able to attack me next turn. I then would abandon one region and deploy him and conquer the region I just abandoned, not attacking my opponent and score the same 11 points. I don't see how the other player would be able to win.

Let me point out (no one else has) that the reason this would be a problem is that the 2-player board has only 20 regions, so owning 11 of them every turn guarantees a win*.

But that cannot happen. Diplomat Giants can conquer at most 6 regions in their first turn, and at most 9 regions after 2 turns. Your nightmare scenario is invalid.

If you are fighting a Diplomat opponent in a 2-player game, you do your best to hedge him in with your tokens. Beat him in the land grab, outmatch him in region count, make him attack you to try to get an advantage. If he does, abandon most or all of your holdings and conquer as many of his regions as you can next turn.


Quote:
Secondly - Elves + any ability
If all the elves are returned to the hand of the opponent and not discarded to the tray and redeployed at the end of the turn, is there any way to ever get rid of any of the Elves? It seems that they will have all the Elf tokens they originally selected throughout the game. They will not lose any from being attacked and never need to go In Decline while they will be able to decrease the other race when they attack, forcing they eventually to go In Decline.

As already pointed out, winning does not depend on killing, but on Victory Coins, which mainly come from regions controlled. You cannot destroy Elves' tokens, but you can grab a numerous race to prevent them from spreading thin, by conquering their holdings and forcing them to stack at least 2 high when they conquer new regions. And, as also already stated, you can go for his in-decline race, wiping it out so he only has his Elves to score VCs with while you have both your active race and in-decline race (hopefully). This all has to be balanced with the defense of your regions and the conquest of neutral regions, so as to maximize your gains and minimize his; the correct balancing point depends on too many factors to generalize easily.




* Unless the other guy gets Seafaring.
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Wyckyd
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Barliman wrote:
* Unless the other guy gets Seafaring.


Or unless the other player has a power which provides additional VP
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Paul Silva
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Barliman wrote:
sardonyx47 wrote:
I recently purchased this game and came across combinations that I'm not sure can be defeated. I'd love some insight an where I might be missing something.

You are missing something, namely how basic conquest works. Your tokens start in your hand, and to conquer a region you place 2 tokens in the target region, plus 1 for each enemy token, mountain, fortress, lair or bivouac. You must leave those tokens there, and use whatever is left in your hand for further conquest. When your conquest is over, you may redeploy your tokens among your conquered regions as you see fit.



So are you saying that I can't use all my tokens, conquer my first region adjacent to the edge/ocean and then continue to conquer adjacent regions leaving one token behind?
 
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Justin Moore
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sardonyx47 wrote:

So are you saying that I can't use all my tokens, conquer my first region adjacent to the edge/ocean and then continue to conquer adjacent regions leaving one token behind?


That's correct. whatever tokens you use to conquer a region stay there. You don't get to redistribute until the end of your conquering.

Think of it this way, you already used that token to conquer this round, they are too tired to help you again on this turn...

So for example, if you start with 10 tokens for your race, then barring any special abilities, you could take over two regions with a single lost race token, using 3 tokens in each region, and two empty regions, using two tokens in each region, on your first turn. That would take all 10 of your tokens. So it'd be 4 points, plus any bonuses those regions might have been worth.

 
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Paul Silva
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feydjm wrote:
sardonyx47 wrote:

So are you saying that I can't use all my tokens, conquer my first region adjacent to the edge/ocean and then continue to conquer adjacent regions leaving one token behind?


That's correct. whatever tokens you use to conquer a region stay there. You don't get to redistribute until the end of your conquering.

Think of it this way, you already used that token to conquer this round, they are too tired to help you again on this turn...

So for example, if you start with 10 tokens for your race, then barring any special abilities, you could take over two regions with a single lost race token, using 3 tokens in each region, and two empty regions, using two tokens in each region, on your first turn. That would take all 10 of your tokens. So it'd be 4 points, plus any bonuses those regions might have been worth.



Ah Hah. I really misunderstood the conquest rule then. I'll have to give it another shot with the right rules.

Thanks all for your help
 
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NtN Scissors
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Barliman wrote:
But that cannot happen. Diplomat Giants can conquer at most 6 regions in their first turn, and at most 9 regions after 2 turns. Your nightmare scenario is invalid.

Actually, if you're willing to occupy less than 6 regions after the first turn (occupy 5 regions including 3 mountains), I think you are able to control 10 regions at the end of your 2nd turn without opponent interference, on the 2-player board.
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Bryan Stout
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Small World » Forums » Rules
Re: Invincible 2-Player Race and Special Ability combinations
Wyckyd wrote:
Barliman wrote:
* Unless the other guy gets Seafaring.

Or unless the other player has a power which provides additional VP

True, true: Humans, Wizards, Swamp, Forest, etc.... Thanks.


NtNScissors wrote:
Barliman wrote:
But that cannot happen. Diplomat Giants can conquer at most 6 regions in their first turn, and at most 9 regions after 2 turns. Your nightmare scenario is invalid.

Actually, if you're willing to occupy less than 6 regions after the first turn (occupy 5 regions including 3 mountains), I think you are able to control 10 regions at the end of your 2nd turn without opponent interference, on the 2-player board.

Ah yes, I was just thinking of a generic race, not accounting for the Giants' ability. Thanks to you too!

 
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