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Julius Caesar» Forums » General

Subject: Why was the change from historical events to "god" events made? rss

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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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thucydides2004 wrote:
That is not a strawman argument, you douchebag.

It's not, eh?

thucydides2004 wrote:
Quote:
I've read Livy, Tacitus, Sallust and others, including Caesar's own works. I think the cards are more of a caricature of the Roman way than a true reflection. Julius Caesar was a highly educated and sophisticated man, a product of a high culture. If playing from his perspective, contemplating where to have Vulcan throw the lava is simply bizarre.


It seems doubtful that you have actually read any of those sources based on your deep-seated misunderstanding of ancient history. While Wulf's comments have been correct, yours have largely missed the point entirely. I am an ancient historian and I have read all of these authors. To characterize them all as being identical or to say that all Roman aristocrats felt the same way about religion would be quite wrong.

You quoted my statement, which says nothing about the listed authors being identical, nor does it state that all Roman aristocrats feel the same way about religion. You do know what a strawman is, don't you?
 
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Brett David Spain
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All he got was more thankless work, from a man who ain't even asked his name. Sure, I may be the one who dreamt up the Walls and the Bastion, but the Kid made 'em real, not me.
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For the listening public...

The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

1. Person A has position X.

2. Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially-similar position Y. Thus, Y is a resulting distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:

A. Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position and then refuting it, thus giving the appearance that the opponent's actual position has been refuted.
B. Quoting an opponent's words out of context – i.e. choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions
C. Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then refuting that person's arguments – thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.
D. Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
E. Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.

3. Person B attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious, because attacking a distorted version of a position fails to constitute an attack on the actual position.
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mario p.
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The thing I can't really understand is how a guy just popped 15 days ago on the BGG can feel entitled to be rude with bggeeks whose criticisms and discussions have already been proved clever and open-minded so many times around here.
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ClickPanic1 wrote:
Is you sayin that Ceasar was an athist? That sond like crazytalk becuz peuple before Jesus was pagens.
No... I think he was saying that Caesar was educated.
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Mike Szarka
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When it is your turn to send a VASSAL move, the wait is excruciating. When it's my turn, well, I've been busy.
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I have purchased JC, read the rules and anticipate playing my first game next week.

I think the "God" labels on the cards are harmless whimsy, however the major griping seems to be with the fact that the opposing general controls certain events that would clearly not be within his control.

I do not have a problem with this. Why not? Because functionally there is almost no difference between a "pure" random event that came from a separate deck draw, and the marginally adulterated randomness of events randomly appearing in one's opponent's hand, for which he controls the specific timing of play within the game turn. The only difference is that each player will strive to play the "God" cards at the most advantageous possible time within the game turn, which simply changes their degree of impact. How this is different from the essential mechanism of practically every other CDG is far from apparent to me, at least in terms of design for effect.

This is a tempest in a teapot. If you don't like a high degree of randomness you should not play CDGs.
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mcszarka wrote:
I do not have a problem with this. Why not? Because functionally there is almost no difference between a "pure" random event that came from a separate deck draw, and the marginally adulterated randomness of events randomly appearing in one's opponent's hand, for which he controls the specific timing of play within the game turn.


Yes indeed, which is why I asked the question early on as to whether or not people had actually played the game.

The event cards are a bit of a double edged sword in the game. For one, if both people play an event, neither happens and you proceed immediately to the next round. For another, playing an event means it gets triggered first, but there's a built in penalty that you don't get to recruit, so there's a built in trade off.
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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mcszarka wrote:
the major griping seems to be with the fact that the opposing general controls certain events that would clearly not be within his control.

Good, you understand my point.

mcszarka wrote:
If you don't like a high degree of randomness you should not play CDGs.

Maybe you don't understand it after all. As you said in the first bit I quoted, my issue is with inappropriate control, not with randomness.

BTW, I don't consider this a CDG - but that tempest has its own teapot.
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leroy43 wrote:
Yes indeed, which is why I asked the question early on as to whether or not people had actually played the game.



At least two people besides myself responded to your question:


Belisarius88 wrote:
And to the guy asking whether we have played the game, that is irrelevant. This is not a game play issue, it is a thematic problem. I have enough intelligence to see that using these cards would bother me.



Natus wrote:
I don't think playing the game has anything to do with it, quite frankly. Sphere propably has more experience with wargames than most of us in this thread put together, and I think he can take a close look at a game element and judge that it's not for him. He's not criticizing how the cards work; he's questioning their thematic quality.

It also happens that I agree with him. I think thematic continuity is important and as a theater director I hate anything that distracts me from the game/theater/movie I'm viewing. I really don't understand why they couldn't be called "Force March", "Ambush!", or "Roman Roads", etc. I don't see that the inclusion of gods adds anything, and for some of us, they distract.

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Sphere wrote:
leroy43 wrote:
Yes indeed, which is why I asked the question early on as to whether or not people had actually played the game.


At least two people besides myself responded to your question


I'm well aware of your and those other responses. I feel that prejudging something based on one data point makes the judgment suspect, and that not having played the game in question invalidates said judgment even further. That's just my opinion.

You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. My tastes in games are every bit as subjective as yours, we just have different subjective criteria.

So for JC, I simply agree to disagree. De gustibus non est disputandum and all that. That doesn't mean I won't agree with someone whose opinion I share.


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leroy43 wrote:
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

So you're saying that I have no rational basis for disliking the way the cards were implemented?

leroy43 wrote:
So for JC, I simply agree to disagree. De gustibus non est disputandum and all that.

You appear to be disagreeing with me about the game, when in fact I have no opinion about the game. I do have a strong opinion about a single design element, one which I know would irritate me even if I found the game to be great in all other particulars, but I'm intelligent enough to realize that the event cards would be only one piece of the puzzle. If I were ever to rate the game, it would occur only after having played, and the rating would be based on the design as a whole.

leroy43 wrote:
That doesn't mean I won't agree with someone whose opinion I share.

I have no idea what you're attempting to say in that sentence. Isn't sharing an opinion the usual basis for agreement?
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So there are just seven of these cards, is that right? Will Columbia (or maybe somebody else via Artscow) maybe make some new cards to reflect a different version/vision of what they represent? I would pay a couple or three bucks for the cards to make the game acceptable to me. I don't like the "pre" favor of the gods stuff either. I would rather they just say force march or ambush or plague, and the effect on the enemy, period. I have not bought the game and the current cards are a stumbling block for me.

If somebody (again via Artscow - I don't have the skills/tools!) did some generic ancient battle game cards, would that avoid copyright/legal problems? You could get seven sets of seven cards in an Artscow deck for like $6 including shipping and sell them for $2-3 apiece including shipping.
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Jonathan Kinney
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I'm stunned this debate is still going on.

Is it really that important to be heard? Let me condense the debate into twitter-sized sound bites.

Group A: "Julius Caesar has a horrible design element that makes it factually unsound and I'd never play it because of that."

Still Group A (because it would have been over 140 characters): "Oh, and the designer must have been coerced into making the cards that way."

Group B: "Does it really matter? It's a fun game."

Me: "Can't we just frickin' move on?"
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Andrew Prizzi
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I've been reading up on this game lately and was planning on including it in my next order. After discovering the mythological element, I'm definitely reconsidering. I agree with those who like their historical games historical and their scifi/fantasy games scifi/fantasy. Werewolf and zombie stormtroopers would be fine in a Weird War II board game, but I don't want them in Combat Commander. Same thing here.

The game does look very well designed. I hope the folks at Columbia who have been reading and responding to this thread will keep fantasy elements out of their future historical games.

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Mike Szarka
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When it is your turn to send a VASSAL move, the wait is excruciating. When it's my turn, well, I've been busy.
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prizziap wrote:
I've been reading up on this game lately and was planning on including it in my next order. After discovering the mythological element, I'm definitely reconsidering. I agree with those who like their historical games historical and their scifi/fantasy games scifi/fantasy. Werewolf and zombie stormtroopers would be fine in a Weird War II board game, but I don't want them in Combat Commander. Same thing here.

The game does look very well designed. I hope the folks at Columbia who have been reading and responding to this thread will keep fantasy elements out of their future historical games.



I was just reading the rules to the well-regarded game "Wilderness War" on the French and Indian wars. There is a "Foul Weather" card that one is allowed to play when one's opponent is about to move. Now, is this historical, or mythological? If I called it the "Thunderbird" card instead (a native American legend capable of summoning wind and rain) would it now change from historical to fantasy? I heard no hue and cry about this.

I personally am a devout rationalist and have no interest in "fantasy". But the reference to Gods on the cards has nothing to do with the game, and doesn't bother me a bit. It is merely a way of saying "shit happens" without reference to scatology.
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Andrew Prizzi
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Quote:
I was just reading the rules to the well-regarded game "Wilderness War" on the French and Indian wars. There is a "Foul Weather" card that one is allowed to play when one's opponent is about to move. Now, is this historical, or mythological? If I called it the "Thunderbird" card instead (a native American legend capable of summoning wind and rain) would it now change from historical to fantasy? I heard no hue and cry about this.


Foul weather isn't fantasy. It's historical. The card in Wilderness War is called "Foul Weather". Perhaps that's why there was no hue and cry about fantasy elements in Wilderness War- because there aren't any.

Now if the card read "The thunderbirds hear the shaman's cry and swoop down from the sky to devour the hated enemy" that would be a different matter. Yes, that would annoy me if I bought Wilderness War expecting a historical war game.

If the cards in Julius Caesar said "surprise attack", "disease spreads in enemy camp", "volcano erupts","natural disaster",etc that would be fine with me. But that's not what the cards say.
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Mike Szarka
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When it is your turn to send a VASSAL move, the wait is excruciating. When it's my turn, well, I've been busy.
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prizziap wrote:
Quote:
I was just reading the rules to the well-regarded game "Wilderness War" on the French and Indian wars. There is a "Foul Weather" card that one is allowed to play when one's opponent is about to move. Now, is this historical, or mythological? If I called it the "Thunderbird" card instead (a native American legend capable of summoning wind and rain) would it now change from historical to fantasy? I heard no hue and cry about this.


Foul weather isn't fantasy. It's historical. The card in Wilderness War is called "Foul Weather". Perhaps that's why there was no hue and cry about fantasy elements in Wilderness War- because there aren't any.

Now if the card read "The thunderbirds hear the shaman's cry and swoop down from the sky to devour the hated enemy" that would be a different matter. Yes, that would annoy me if I bought Wilderness War expecting a historical war game.

If the cards in Julius Caesar said "surprise attack", "disease spreads in enemy camp", "volcano erupts","natural disaster",etc that would be fine with me. But that's not what the cards say.


How the heck is your opponent playing "foul weather" on you just as you are about to move not god-like?!! It's not what they cards say that matters, it's the way the design uses them that matters.

The "god" titles on the cards are just whimsy for period flavour. It doesn't make it into a fantasy game any more than any other wargame. Since all the commanders at that time would have believed in gods, one could even argue that it is more historical, as far as putting one in the shoes of the generals.

Anyway, I suggest you just scribble out the Mars, Mercury etc. and call them "spy", "forced march" etc. then play the game. It's a good game. Everything else is historical. It's clear that the intent of the gods cards was not to turn it into a fantasy game.
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Joshua Northey
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Julius Caesar » Forums » General
Re: Why was the change from historical events to "god" events made?
I have been using this website as a resource for years, though this is the first time I have seen a thread I felt compelled to comment on (usually I am just looking up rules clarifications, but I had the day off and my wife didn't and I was bored).

First off let me say I have dozens of games, and have read and still read tons of Roman history. I am also an naturalist pretty uninterested in religious characterizations/explanations of things.

That said when I first learned the game on vassal I found the god cards incredibly out of place and off-putting. They aren't all equally useful and I found their names silly and incongruous with the rest of the game.

BUT..after actually..you know...PLAYING THE GAME...

I found that they mostly fit into the game pretty seamlessly and do not effect my immersion at all. Once I start playing I am only thinking about the effects of things, not the art. Everything could just be numbers for all I care once playing.

1 or 2 of them are very weak/situational, but on the plus side I think they made my wife be more interested in the game than she otherwise would have been and she is now quite good at it.

Anyway I have since bought the game and it is tons of fun! A real winner IMO.

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