Greycloak
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This question has been bothering me for some time now, I'd like everyone's opinion. I can't find an answer in any of the official material, and can see two different options based on the Rules As Written as well as what seems to be the spirit of the rules.

Question:
When playing with an odd wormhole, (IE: 2 B's and 1 A) under normal rules you do not need to control the A wormhole in order to accomplish Master of Gates. If you include the Wormhole Nexus option, does this change? I know that you don't need to control the Nexus, but does the inclusion of the Nexus then mean that you now need to control the odd wormhole in order to accomplish this secret objective.

Honestly I can see arguments for both sides. Here are the relevant quotes from the rules that I could find:

Page 19 Core: "If only one Wormhole of a type is in play, it has no function and is ignored."

Page 10 SE: "The Wormhole Nexus need not be controlled to fulfill the "Keeper of Gates" Special Objective (but it can be easier to fulfill this objective if playing with the Wormhole Nexus)."

Page 4 2.2.1 FAQ: "Q: Are the additional Distant Suns wormholes part of the objective condition required to resolve the 'Master of Gates' Secret objective card? A: No. To complete the 'Master of Gates' secret objective, a player has only to control the systems with the original 4 wormholes, not any that are added via Distant Suns tokens."
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Scott Lewis
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I think the Page 19 quote is the key; if the Nexus is in play, the "only one Wormhole of a type" does not apply. The Nexus may not be needed to get the objective, but it DOES cause there to be a second "A" wormhole; thus, the "A" wormhole is a valid, in-play entity.
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Martin DeOlden
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I always play with the nexus.
My group has ruled that all you have to do is have 2 pairs of Wormholes to complete the SO.
a set of the A and a set of the B wormholes and that is all. The nexus makes it easier as controlling it already gives you 2 halves and then you just need another A and a B. 3 systems rather then 4 is easier to get then 4 systems at times.

We always play with enough wormholes and usually have C and D wormholes as well. The extra wormholes is why we eventually decided on making the 2 set of wormhole rule for the SO that way any 2 sets will do.
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Adrian Pop
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It's pretty simple:

There are 4 regular systems that contain a wormhole. With "Keeper of the Gates" you have to control all of those systems. It doesn't matter in which configuration they show up.

You need not control the Wormhole Nexus system or any other system that contains a wormhole Distant Suns token.
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Greycloak
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Adrian, I used to think that as well.

However, the only thing about that interpretation is that the FAQ has that listed under the section specifically for playing with Distant Suns option. I understand that to mean that if you get a distant sun token turned over and it's the wormhole discovery one that token does not count as part of the requirement for the secret objective.

When playing with the preset maps you most of them require you to use some token to get the matching wormhole. I would think that those maps with one of each set of A and B you would still need to control all four spaces (even though only one of each A and B is actually the original wormhole tile).

The 5, 7, 6 multi galaxy, and 8 multi galaxy are the only presets that use Quann and Lodor.
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Scott Lewis
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Tretiak wrote:
It's pretty simple:

There are 4 regular systems that contain a wormhole. With "Keeper of the Gates" you have to control all of those systems. It doesn't matter in which configuration they show up.

Without the Wormhole Nexus, it actually DOES matter; if only one half of a pair shows up, that half is COMPLETELY IGNORED Thus, in a non-Nexus game, if you have 1 A and 2 B's, to get the Keeper of the Gates objective, you only need the 2 B's, NOT the A.

If there is ever an unpaired Wormhole, you just ignore it for all purposes. (This is largely because without that rule, Keeper of the Gates could be extremely difficult or impossible if the odd Wormhole was not somewhere you could get to).
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Adrian Pop
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sigmazero13 wrote:
Tretiak wrote:
It's pretty simple:

There are 4 regular systems that contain a wormhole. With "Keeper of the Gates" you have to control all of those systems. It doesn't matter in which configuration they show up.

Without the Wormhole Nexus, it actually DOES matter; if only one half of a pair shows up, that half is COMPLETELY IGNORED Thus, in a non-Nexus game, if you have 1 A and 2 B's, to get the Keeper of the Gates objective, you only need the 2 B's, NOT the A.

If there is ever an unpaired Wormhole, you just ignore it for all purposes. (This is largely because without that rule, Keeper of the Gates could be extremely difficult or impossible if the odd Wormhole was not somewhere you could get to).


Hmm... Is that rule official? It seems I can't find it. The manual says that a lone end of a wormhole "has no function" and is "ignored". But the Wormholes section of the manual deals only with movement. Should I extrapolate it to is ignored for all purposes since it doesn't say is ignored for movement purposes only] ?
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I think the "has no function" and "ignored" are pretty clear in and of themselves - it doesn't say it only applies to movement. Just because it's in the movement section doesn't mean anything - in the FFG rulebooks, it's not uncommon at all for a rule to be in a specific section but have more widespread application

And I'm pretty sure Corey has confirmed that at one point
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Adrian Pop
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sigmazero13 wrote:
I think the "has no function" and "ignored" are pretty clear in and of themselves - it doesn't say it only applies to movement. Just because it's in the movement section doesn't mean anything - in the FFG rulebooks, it's not uncommon at all for a rule to be in a specific section but have more widespread application

And I'm pretty sure Corey has confirmed that at one point


Well, I must say we have played it as I stated before, and had no problem with it. Simply because we thought ”Keeper of the Gates” was designed to be a hit or miss objective, oscillating between almost impossible to ridiculously easy.

But since I bought the expansion, all of my games have included the Wormhole Nexus system. So I guess we've been playing it right all along

Still, I believe this should have been included in the FAQ.
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Greycloak
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As far as I'm concerned it still is a hit or miss objective. On the official preset maps, it swings from an easy (without Nexus) 2 wormholes on a 3 player map, to a crazy 8 wormholes on a six player player multi-galaxy map.
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Adrian Pop
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Aaron Kurtz wrote:
As far as I'm concerned it still is a hit or miss objective. On the official preset maps, it swings from an easy (without Nexus) 2 wormholes on a 3 player map, to a crazy 8 wormholes on a six player player multi-galaxy map.


You should probably remove it if playing a multi galaxy map. Those maps were definitely not made with Keeper of the Gates in mind.
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Greycloak
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Yeah, it was pretty brutal to the guy who ended up getting it

The funny thing was, he's the player who seems to get it most often, like 50% of the games. It's his own personal nemesis in the game
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to me is just unclear yet dont see a definitive answer based in something sayed by the official site.
if have the nexus in game and 2-B wormhole and 1-A wormhole my kepper of gates is to control:
a: the 2 b wormhole only
b: the 2 b and the a wormhole

is clear that the nexus is not needeed but before answer what you think, i prefer some official answer if anyone have(from ffg forums or faqs i think)

Another thing is if nexus is in play the only 1 A wormhole can be used to go travel from A to nexus and nexus to A? if not the only way that differ a single A from empty space is if the distant sun wormhole A appear? if not again i can only think is easier to sustitute Single wormholes in galaxy to empty spaces...
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Ekiler wrote:
is clear that the nexus is not needeed but before answer what you think, i prefer some official answer if anyone have(from ffg forums or faqs i think)

The FFG folks don't post here, unfortunately, and the FAQ is unfortunately not very complete.

If you want an "official" answer, you should go to the FFG site and submit a rules question (there's a tiny link at the bottom of every page). It may take a little while for Corey to answer, but he should respond eventually.

Quote:
Another thing is if nexus is in play the only 1 A wormhole can be used to go travel from A to nexus and nexus to A? if not the only way that differ a single A from empty space is if the distant sun wormhole A appear? if not again i can only think is easier to sustitute Single wormholes in galaxy to empty spaces...

All the rules say is if there is an unpaired wormhole, it is ignored. If the Nexus is in play, the A would not be unpaired, so it wouldn't be ignored.

Basically, the point of it was to make it so if there was a lonely A or B wormhole, it didn't hose the person who had Keeper of Gates if it was clear across the board and no way to get to it.
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Adrian Pop
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If playing with the Distant Suns option.

Is then an unpaired wormhole ignored for Keeper of the Gates until a wormhole domain token is revealed ?
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Tretiak wrote:
If playing with the Distant Suns option.

Is then an unpaired wormhole ignored for Keeper of the Gates until a wormhole domain token is revealed ?

I would say yes. Once the other domain token is revealed, the A becomes active, I believe, but I don't think the Domain Token wormhole is required to claim the objective (just the "real" ones).
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Twilight Imperium (Third Edition): Shattered Empire » Forums » Rules
Re: Keeper of Gates with the Nexus, does the odd wormhole out count?
True, the domain token has the same status as the wormholes of the Wormhole Nexus system.
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