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Subject: Storage and Errata rss

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Seth Pontiff
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I was really looking forward to unpacking my game today when it arrived at my office. Upon opening the game, looking at all the cool components, and separating all my chits, I then started to wonder how the hell this is going back in the box. I didn't want to take the cardboard insert out because at least it provides a little protection to the figures. I managed to fit everything, but man oh man, when will companies learn to compensate for this?

Also, I had a small errata in my game. I'm not sure if everyone's copy had this or not. They at least were nice enough to reprint 7 cards that were originally printed incorrectly. However, I also noticed they had an errata on the FFG site. I'm disappointed at all the erratas and fixes that were noticed after the game was released. I understand some mishaps, but this is the most I've seen. I really hope that FFG corrects this by sending buyers of the game corrected cards, instruction manuals, etc. Above knowing the rules, now you must learn all the corrections as not to ruin the game. Does anyone else feel this way?
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Bobby Ramsey
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I don't really mind it, as long as the game stays this engrossing.
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Maybe they'll do like they did with arkham and dunwich horror and put replacement cards in the first expansion.
P
 
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Seth Pontiff
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I just hope they do something. I really am still looking forward to playing this game. Being that it takes a precise setup and the way the mechanics work, having incorrect verbiage can very well be detrimental to a game such as this. It's too bad FFG isn't looking for a playtester/copywriter. I would definitely apply. These games are expensive and should be close to 100% accurate when shipped out in my opinion.
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Mariano Rico
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Cardboard insert in the trash in my case. As long as you always place the map tiles on the bottom, I don´t see any real protection coming from it to the figurines, and you can fit everything much better (the box is higher than usual and that helps). There is always nice storage option out there if you want to make sure everything is properly protected...

I am also looking forward to replacement cards in the first expansion, and also feel the ammount of errata in this game is unusually high and in some cases affects gameplay greatly since this game is a semi-complicated clock machine that needs to work perfectly for porper playing. I smell some Marketing department rush in getting the baby out there for some marketing occult reasons...

But all in all, I am having a blast. Extremely recommended game.
 
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I also ditched the carboard insert. I went with a storage case from Hobby Lobby:
http://shop.hobbylobby.com/products/craft-storage-box-666735...

It's actually the perfect size as 10.5 inches of width fits nicely in the 11 inch box (this may not be the exact model I saw in the store, but it looks close).

All the punched chits and tokens went into the storage case. Cards got separated into baggies. I put the tiles on the bottom with the case on top of it. The only real challenge was the minis. I put the bigger ones at the bottom next to the storage case. Then I stacked the smaller minis upside-down over the other minis. I did glue them, so they seem sturdier this way. Then I put the books and card baggies over all that and I have a bit of room to spare.
 
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Jeroen van der Valk
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Fryd Pickles wrote:
These games are expensive and should be close to 100% accurate when shipped out in my opinion.


Which it is, considering the huge amounts of text and moving parts that all need to be exactly in the right place for a Story to work.
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Patrick
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jvdv wrote:
Fryd Pickles wrote:
These games are expensive and should be close to 100% accurate when shipped out in my opinion.


Which it is, considering the huge amounts of text and moving parts that all need to be exactly in the right place for a Story to work.

Agreed. The amount of text is huge in games like these. So even 50 mistakes (not that there are that many) would still be about 99.9% accurate.
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Mariano Rico
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When the company is forced to throw in 7 replacement cards into the box after the game has been printed, then you can tell something unusual is going on here.

Or check the official FAQ. Some mistakes are important gameplay mistakes that affect card play, scenario balance or even overall playability (ammount of errata of Scenario 5 is ridiculous)

I love the game, really, but I also pay for a product that is supposed to be finished. And this one seems like it wasn´t. And what bothers me is that a great game like this deserved a much better playtesting and proofing treatment before publishing. Specially coming from a big company.

I really hope they fix this in coming editions and expansions. I trust FFG will do it. But I think is important we point it out somehow.

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Jeroen van der Valk
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Acererak wrote:
But I think is important we point it out somehow.


I think they are aware.
 
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Seth Pontiff
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corkysru wrote:
jvdv wrote:
Fryd Pickles wrote:
These games are expensive and should be close to 100% accurate when shipped out in my opinion.


Which it is, considering the huge amounts of text and moving parts that all need to be exactly in the right place for a Story to work.

Agreed. The amount of text is huge in games like these. So even 50 mistakes (not that there are that many) would still be about 99.9% accurate.


I am definitely not a math wiz. Plus, I was exaggerating a bit. Yes, the game is technically 99% accurate still. This is irrelevant to what we are all discussing. The point is that it needed to have less mistakes than should have been allowed. For example, you wouldn't pay a crap load of money for a fancy sports car, and then one or two features didn't work properly. You wouldn't be pleased. This is a smaller case, but the principle still applies.
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Mariano Rico
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jvdv wrote:
Acererak wrote:
But I think is important we point it out somehow.


I think they are aware.


I definitely wish so, since as said, I love the game and the theme, and the potential for it once they start developing it is amazing.

Any fact to support your assumption though? Thanks!
 
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Patrick
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Fryd Pickles wrote:
corkysru wrote:
jvdv wrote:
Fryd Pickles wrote:
These games are expensive and should be close to 100% accurate when shipped out in my opinion.


Which it is, considering the huge amounts of text and moving parts that all need to be exactly in the right place for a Story to work.

Agreed. The amount of text is huge in games like these. So even 50 mistakes (not that there are that many) would still be about 99.9% accurate.


I am definitely not a math wiz. Plus, I was exaggerating a bit. Yes, the game is technically 99% accurate still. This is irrelevant to what we are all discussing. The point is that it needed to have less mistakes than should have been allowed. For example, you wouldn't pay a crap load of money for a fancy sports car, and then one or two features didn't work properly. You wouldn't be pleased. This is a smaller case, but the principle still applies.

Actually no it doesn't.
Mistakes in cards cost lives.(thanks Toyota breaks!)
Mistakes in games cause annoyances.
Lets think about how much you pay for a car.
$15k?
Lets think about how much you pay for a boardgame.
$80?

Now there is a huge difference. Now if FFG would refuse to fix things or refuse to offer errata I would definitely say you have a vaild complaint.
But's lets face facts. They are a business. Sometimes things get missed. Do they fix them? Yes. Do they usually include any errata'd cards in the first expansion? Yes.

So yes.. they make mistakes. Yes they fix them. That's all you can really ask for in a game company.

Hell they still make less mistakes than the drive through at your local McDonalds.
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Seth Pontiff
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Mansions of Madness » Forums » General
Re: Storage and Errata
Okay...Patrick...okay. Moving on.
 
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John Anderson
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corkysru wrote:
So yes.. they make mistakes. Yes they fix them. That's all you can really ask for in a game company.
No, we can also ask them to make FEWER mistakes.

Having better editors and playtesters would help accomplish that.
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Evan Stegman
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corkysru wrote:
jvdv wrote:
Fryd Pickles wrote:
These games are expensive and should be close to 100% accurate when shipped out in my opinion.


Which it is, considering the huge amounts of text and moving parts that all need to be exactly in the right place for a Story to work.

Agreed. The amount of text is huge in games like these. So even 50 mistakes (not that there are that many) would still be about 99.9% accurate.


You are way, way off base.

Even if you were to absurdly based it on word count, 50 words wrong would need 50,000 word document to be just 0.1%. The average 300-400 page novel is about 100,000 words. The rules are just a fraction of that.

Besides, to give a more reasonable assessment of accuracy, you wouldn't look at the number of words but the number of concepts/rules that were expressed incorrectly or omitted.

Even generously giving them 500 rules, 50 mistakes would be 10% not 0.1%.
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Evan Stegman
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puck71 wrote:
corkysru wrote:
So yes.. they make mistakes. Yes they fix them. That's all you can really ask for in a game company.
No, we can also ask them to make FEWER mistakes.

Having better editors and playtesters would help accomplish that.


Some people have a knack for seeing things from the perspective of someone that is new to the material and some people don't. I.e., when some people know how something should be interpreted, it is hard for them to see the ambiguities and omissions.

When talking about this concept in my professional life, I even cite something that happened on FF's forums to illustrate: there was a rule that was ambiguous to many people that didn't already know how to play. The developer's response on the forums was along the lines of 'just read the rule again.'. Because he knew how it *SHOULD* be interpreted he plain and simply could not see any other possible interpretation even though multiple people were saying it was ambiguous to them (and it was).

I deal with this issue quite often at work because part of what I do is oversee articles various people from different parts of IT submit to our organization's technical knowledgebase. There are certain people who it has become clear just do not have the knack of seeing things from a less knowledgeable person's perspective and for those I generally just edit it for them. I usually don't change what they wrote (i.e., the core concepts) but just reword for clarity here and there, reorganize the flow and adjust the formatting. It's not that anything they wrote was incorrect just that it was done in a way that made it more difficult for people to absorb more difficult than it needs to be.

I think that may be Fantasy Flight's problem: while they may have playtesters, I suspect most if not all of them are taught the game by someone.

What they really need to do is give multiple people the rules and at least mock-up components but no explanations of how things work. Don't allow them to ask questions of anyone and get a quick answer but just try to learn and play the game based on the rules and components alone (i.e., what buyer will get in the box) and see where people have issues.

That would help shine a light on some of these glaring omissions and ambiguities I see crop up in all the time.
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Patrick
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puck71 wrote:
corkysru wrote:
So yes.. they make mistakes. Yes they fix them. That's all you can really ask for in a game company.
No, we can also ask them to make FEWER mistakes.

Having better editors and playtesters would help accomplish that.

Not really. Having MORE MIGHT fix it. Even the best editors and playtesters can make mistakes or erroneous assumptions. I am truly certain though that if went to FFG and volunteered your time free of charge to proofread everything they publish so that it is perfect they will gladly let you. But the fact is no one is willing to do it for free. So yeah.. mistakes will be made because of the simple fact that it is a business and people only have so much time. I am sure that they catch and fix so many other mistakes that the few they do miss are forgivable.

If you want perfection go start your own company and prove me to it can still be done and make money.

Or don't buy from FFG.

Either way.. they fix their mistakes and its not like the game is unplayable because of them.

EvanMinn wrote:
corkysru wrote:
jvdv wrote:
Fryd Pickles wrote:
These games are expensive and should be close to 100% accurate when shipped out in my opinion.


Which it is, considering the huge amounts of text and moving parts that all need to be exactly in the right place for a Story to work.

Agreed. The amount of text is huge in games like these. So even 50 mistakes (not that there are that many) would still be about 99.9% accurate.


You are way, way off base.

Even if you were to absurdly based it on word count, 50 words wrong would need 50,000 word document to be just 0.1%. The average 300-400 page novel is about 100,000 words. The rules are just a fraction of that.

Besides, to give a more reasonable assessment of accuracy, you wouldn't look at the number of words but the number of concepts/rules that were expressed incorrectly or omitted.

Even generously giving them 500 rules, 50 mistakes would be 10% not 0.1%.

I didn't realize I was that far off on the word count. But don't forget to count every word on every card. That needed to be checked as well.

And no.. I do not think that we need to count concepts we need to count words because many of the errata on the cards and the rules are just the wrong word be used or possible a missing comma or some thing similar.
 
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Jeroen van der Valk
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Acererak wrote:
jvdv wrote:
Acererak wrote:
But I think is important we point it out somehow.


I think they are aware.


I definitely wish so, since as said, I love the game and the theme, and the potential for it once they start developing it is amazing.

Any fact to support your assumption though? Thanks!


1. They issue 7 replacement cards in the box.
2. They add a small errata and clarification sheet in the box.
3. They make an FAQ available just days after general release.
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Evan Stegman
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corkysru wrote:
...

And no.. I do not think that we need to count concepts we need to count words because many of the errata on the cards and the rules are just the wrong word be used or possible a missing comma or some thing similar.


Rule A
Incorrect: When a six is rolled, the player loses.
Correct: When a six is rolled, the player wins.

Rule B
Incorrect: When leaving the bank, collect $200.
Correct: Except in the final turn, when leaving the bank, collect $200.

So by your 'let's count the words' philosophy, Rule B's mistake should count five times as much because five words were left out whereas in Rule A, one word was wrong.

I don't understand the rationale for that at all. In either case, the rule was wrong. If there are 10 rules in the game, that is 20% of the rules. That's pretty bad.

How is counting how many words it takes to correct the rules more relevant than how many rules were wrong? I really don't understand that at all.
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Mariano Rico
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corkysru wrote:

But the fact is no one is willing to do it for free.


I would. Gladly, even.

corkysru wrote:
I am sure that they catch and fix so many other mistakes that the few they do miss are forgivable.


Well, THAT is the problem. Mistakes are in quite a few unforgivable places, like Mythos, Keeper Actions or even Clue(!) Cards. Or in the whole way of seeding a Story (#5)

corkysru wrote:
If you want perfection go start your own company and prove me to it can still be done and make money.


No one is asking for perfection. Acceptable quality control of the product, yes.


corkysru wrote:
Or don't buy from FFG.


Yep, that is always a possibility.


corkysru wrote:
And no.. I do not think that we need to count concepts we need to count words because many of the errata on the cards and the rules are just the wrong word be used or possible a missing comma or some thing similar.


Wrong again. We are not talking about missing commas here, we are talking about whole concepts that affect the balance of some scenarios, or the way some cards are played (once per turn or not...). Again, for me this is the worst part, how important those errors or missing concepts are besides if those are too many or not (which they also are, I am afraid, regardless of how many wrong words exactly we count)
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Seth Pontiff
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Let's stay on track. The point of the matter is, yet again, is that this game requires precise setups. If words are missing, if the wrong verbiage is used in the rules or on the cards, if maps aren't portrayed correctly in the setup guide, etc., this game would be very hard to enjoy. Keep in mind, the person who owns the game has to learn the rules, remember the corrections, fix them, and teach this game to others that don't know the rules. Things can just get too confusing and the enjoyment factor will drastically fall. Some players may even read their cards and when the keeper says, "You can't do that. It was a mistake on FFG's part.", there may be some disagreements going on between investigators and the keeper. I don't want to spend $80.00 on a boardgame that is full of wrong information. You may be able to throw away money like that, but some people aren't able to. And when they do use their money to purchase things, they want to be able to enjoy them. If FFG fixes these issues, then fine. However, they shouldn't fix these issues in their next expansion. That basically means you have to pay for their mistakes to be fixed. You have to look at this from a business standpoint. Yes, boardgames are fun and all, but it is a market and people do make a living off of this. These are all valid concerns. It appears you (Patrick) are defending FFG to your utmost degree which is cool. We all like FFG I'm sure, but this is unheard of from this company. We just want to keep on gaming without anything hindering us. That's all. Take a deep breath and we'll see how it all plays out with FFG.
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jvdv wrote:

1. They issue 7 replacement cards in the box.
2. They add a small errata and clarification sheet in the box.
3. They make an FAQ available just days after general release.


What still amazes me and find hard to understand is how come they were not aware of this before sending the game to production (they missed another 7 very important cards with important mistakes in them after general release from what we can see in the official FAQ actually)

But again, like you, I want to believe they will correct all the mistakes in future expansions.
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Robert Blake
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Or reprints.

Hope that in next reprint those erratas would be fixed. And hope that next reprint will include the spanish version...
 
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Patrick
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My simple request to all of you who are bitching endlessly about how much FFG screwed you by making mistakes is this:

Start your own company that can actually:
1) pay it's employees
2) produces games of such a high component quality that it compares with FFG
3) publishes games that are as complex as FFG does
4) provide as amazing customer support(including website and actual customer support(like piece replacement and such(Thanks Thaadd!!)))
And most importantly
5) make the rules and cards PERFECT upon publication.

Once you do this I will retract every defense for FFG I have made. Otherwise get over it and either
a)complain a little and accept that mistakes will be made.
b)Don't buy FFG
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