$10.00
Recommend
10 
 Thumb up
 Hide
190 Posts
[1]  Prev «  4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8  Next »  [8] | 

Dominion» Forums » Strategy

Subject: King's Court x2 -> Goons -> Masquerade -> Broken rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
destry wrote:
BTW - I may be misinterpreting what you're saying, but I don't think KC/Outpost (or TR/Outpost) works the way you seem to imply. Outpost is self limiting, so playing KC/Outpost gets you the same as if you played just Outpost.


He's just saying that you can reduce your opponent's hand by 3 cards during your regular turn and another 3 cards during your Outpost turn, leaving him with an empty hand.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I do think the suggestion that Masquerade should skip anyone with an empty hand is very reasonable. Donald probably thinks this isn't a serious enough problem to issue errata for, but I do think it would be a fine solution.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Wolfe
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
Zendo fan, Columbus Blue Jackets fan, Dominion Fan. These are 'permanent microbadges' to free up space on my microbadge row
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
I do think the suggestion that Masquerade should skip anyone with an empty hand is very reasonable. Donald probably thinks this isn't a serious enough problem to issue errata for, but I do think it would be a fine solution.

To my knowledge, Donald has never issued errata. I believe that's intentional.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J Mathews
United States
Renton
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
That may be, but this is the first issue I have seen about Dominion that is a legitimate, objective issue (as opposed to one of taste). A "pinning" deck seems to go against the spirit of Dominion as it renders people unable to play the game. This is not fun and kind of concerning. I am looking for some official fix or else I will just need to make sure that Masquerade and KC are not on the table together when we play.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nate S
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
EventHorizon wrote:
That may be, but this is the first issue I have seen about Dominion that is a legitimate, objective issue (as opposed to one of taste). A "pinning" deck seems to go against the spirit of Dominion as it renders people unable to play the game. This is not fun and kind of concerning. I am looking for some official fix or else I will just need to make sure that Masquerade and KC are not on the table together when we play.

You're welcome to use the Masquerade variant suggested above.

Won't protect you from pins that don't involve Masquerade, though. I'd suggest resigning from games where you are pinned as a pretty bulletproof solution. If you consider that you have the option to resign, this is really not much different than the well-known KC/Bridge combo. If you feel obligated to keep playing even when pinned, the suggested Masquerade variant (skip any players no cards in hand) is a perfectly good rule, and one I suspect would have been printed on the card if this had come up in playtesting before printing.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J Mathews
United States
Renton
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't play online, just in person. I don't see how an opponent's KC/Bridge prevents you from playing. It seems a really effective combo, but not like the Masq combo where you leave someone without a deck. I believe that we will use the proposed rule variant as it seems to avoid the worst of the exploitation.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
jeffwolfe wrote:
To my knowledge, Donald has never issued errata. I believe that's intentional.


If you think he intentionally avoided making errors that would generate errata, obviously I agree! This seems almost a null statement---I think it's extremely rare for people to intend to make errors.

He's occasionally changed his rulings or interpretations.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul W
United States
Eugene
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
EventHorizon wrote:
I don't play online, just in person. I don't see how an opponent's KC/Bridge prevents you from playing. It seems a really effective combo, but not like the Masq combo where you leave someone without a deck. I believe that we will use the proposed rule variant as it seems to avoid the worst of the exploitation.


The idea is that the KC/Bridge combo immediately ends the game if it's pulled off. One can just as easily achieve the same effect with the KC/Goons/Masq combo by simply resigning the turn after you opponent pulls it off. Unless you've got a major grudge against resigning (I do it regularly myself), there's no problem created by the combo.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Costello
msg tools
EventHorizon wrote:
I don't play online, just in person. I don't see how an opponent's KC/Bridge prevents you from playing. It seems a really effective combo, but not like the Masq combo where you leave someone without a deck. I believe that we will use the proposed rule variant as it seems to avoid the worst of the exploitation.


Well.. the KC/Bridge combo he's referring to is KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge. This combo very often prevents you from playing by ending the game on the turn it is played =P

The complaint against the KC/KC/Goons/Masquerade combo and its ilk is that it prevents you from playing but technically doesn't end the game immediately. But if you resign when you are pinned to have zero card hands for the rest of the game, which is a pretty reasonable thing to do, it makes the outcome pretty much identical.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J Mathews
United States
Renton
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Understood. But it's one thing to have someone pull off an awesome conbo and win the game in one turn. It's another to be reduced to 0 cards and have to sit there buying Coppers turn after turn. If someone pulled the KC/Bridge combo on me, I would congratulate them. If someone pulled the KC/Masq thing on me, I might not play Dominion with them again because they would have succeeded in making the game no longer fun.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul W
United States
Eugene
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
EventHorizon wrote:
Understood. But it's one thing to have someone pull off an awesome conbo and win the game in one turn. It's another to be reduced to 0 cards and have to sit there buying Coppers turn after turn. If someone pulled the KC/Bridge combo on me, I would congratulate them. If someone pulled the KC/Masq thing on me, I might not play Dominion with them again because they would have succeeded in making the game no longer fun.


...but why sit there and buy coppers every turn when you can simply resign? The experience is only frustrating if you insist on playing it out, which there's no reason to do except out of stubbornness. I'm not sure how KC/KC/Goons/Masq followed by "nicely done, I resign" is any less fun than KC/KC/Bridge/Bridge/Bridge...provinces empty, game over.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
fizzmore wrote:
...but why sit there and buy coppers every turn when you can simply resign? The experience is only frustrating if you insist on playing it out, which there's no reason to do except out of stubbornness. I'm not sure how KC/KC/Goons/Masq followed by "nicely done, I resign" is any less fun than KC/KC/Bridge/Bridge/Bridge...provinces empty, game over.


You could say that it's sort of broken in a game with more than two players, where this position could play out in a number of strange ways.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul W
United States
Eugene
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
fizzmore wrote:
...but why sit there and buy coppers every turn when you can simply resign? The experience is only frustrating if you insist on playing it out, which there's no reason to do except out of stubbornness. I'm not sure how KC/KC/Goons/Masq followed by "nicely done, I resign" is any less fun than KC/KC/Bridge/Bridge/Bridge...provinces empty, game over.


You could say that it's sort of broken in a game with more than two players, where this position could play out in a number of strange ways.


Perhaps, although in that situation the combo seems to be a losing proposition anyway.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
fizzmore wrote:
Perhaps, although in that situation the combo seems to be a losing proposition anyway.


Maybe, maybe not, in either case that seems irrelevant to the enjoyment and satisfaction of the player who gets to play the game out with zero cards. Are you saying that he should be happy about the outcome as long as the KC/Masquerade player also loses?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J. Smith
msg tools
Destry: KC -> KC -> outpost -> masq is just being used like DDJ suggest, chaining the KC's to get an outpost turn and burning 3 cards in the normal hand and 3 cards in the outpost turn. You can replace a KC with any +2 action card and it still works; however you don't need +2 actions as KC/KC (or TR/TR) is self chaining.

Just curios if anyone else knows of any other pins (even if just purely theoretical). By that I mean combos (however convoluted) that result in the opponent(s) always having zero useful (value gaining) cards to play.

Aside from masq the only ones I see are:
KC/KC/Bureaucrat/Bureaucrat/Watchtower (watch tower can be replaced with some +draw, + action + card trashers, e.g. lab & forge). Needs to have very limited draw to work.

KC/KC/Cutpurse/Mountebank/Saboteur (no useful 2 coin cards in the set). Everything outside of estates, curses & coppers will become one of the three assuming the opponent is limited to 2 or fewer cards gained per turn. Your opponent can never play more than 2 coppers per turn which can buy a copper/curse or estate. This will never actually work against marginally compotent opponents, I think, as you need to toss a lot of cards without a trasher in hand, gain a lot of value with some strong deck slowing. But assuming you could set it up, somehow, before the game ends it would eventually pin the opponent.

Rabble/Beaucrat/KC (TR?/Tribute?/spy?) with villages might let you push through an opponent's entire deck until you leave 3 green (no harems, islands, great halls) on top and then top deck two green from the opponent's hand. This requires that the opponent have 8 green and that you have enough rabble chained together to cycle his entire deck twice. I don't think this is remotely practical, but in theory you might be able to set it up before losing ... against an incompotent opponent.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul W
United States
Eugene
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
fizzmore wrote:
Perhaps, although in that situation the combo seems to be a losing proposition anyway.


Maybe, maybe not, in either case that seems irrelevant to the enjoyment and satisfaction of the player who gets to play the game out with zero cards. Are you saying that he should be happy about the outcome as long as the KC/Masquerade player also loses?


No, I'm saying that as long as it's a poor strategy it's not a major concerne...yes if it happens, it's still frustrating, but it will happen rarely if at all. I'd consider things like KC/Possession to be much more of a concern, as they are often tactically sound in addition to being annoying to sit through.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J. Smith
msg tools
Paul: That depends on the size and buying power of opponent decks. After all you will eventually crush the deck of player 2. With KC/Outpost/Masq in a three player game, the second opponent still loses one card per turn. Once the first player is totally out of cards, the second player then become pinned. Assuming that you get this set up quick enough (say turn 12) that means that each player has 22 cards (maybe less). This gives the second player 5 turns to end the game before they get pinned too.

If there is a setup that makes KC/KC/Mountebank/Cutpurse/Masq fast enough, then it will really slow the second player as they will get passed coppers and lose one non-copper card per turn (net +4 coppers per turn if they don't discard curses) most turns.

Some of the other pins, if you could make them work, would work against any number of opponents.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
fizzmore wrote:
No, I'm saying that as long as it's a poor strategy it's not a degenerate case...yes if it happens, it's still frustrating, but it will happen rarely if at all.


I don't understand how it can possibly be any less "degenerate" just because it is a poor strategy. If anything, it's more, rather than less, frustrating if your game is ruined by a poor strategy. At least if someone is playing a good strategy you can congratulate them. But if someone is playing a poor strategy and you are the victim, what then?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul W
United States
Eugene
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
fizzmore wrote:
No, I'm saying that as long as it's a poor strategy it's not a degenerate case...yes if it happens, it's still frustrating, but it will happen rarely if at all.


I don't understand how it can possibly be any less "degenerate" just because it is a poor strategy. If anything, it's more, rather than less, frustrating if your game is ruined by a poor strategy. At least if someone is playing a good strategy you can congratulate them. But if someone is playing a poor strategy and you are the victim, what then?


My point is that the player has no incentive to keep playing the strategy. If a player continues to play a poor strategy that ruins the game for others even after they've played a game and seen it fail there's a simple solution: I wouldn't play with someone who cared more about sabotaging other than winning.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul W
United States
Eugene
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Hart wrote:
Paul: That depends on the size and buying power of opponent decks. After all you will eventually crush the deck of player 2. With KC/Outpost/Masq in a three player game, the second opponent still loses one card per turn. Once the first player is totally out of cards, the second player then become pinned. Assuming that you get this set up quick enough (say turn 12) that means that each player has 22 cards (maybe less). This gives the second player 5 turns to end the game before they get pinned too.

If there is a setup that makes KC/KC/Mountebank/Cutpurse/Masq fast enough, then it will really slow the second player as they will get passed coppers and lose one non-copper card per turn (net +4 coppers per turn if they don't discard curses) most turns.

Some of the other pins, if you could make them work, would work against any number of opponents.


So a 3 players game which is fast enough to set up an expensive combo like that by turn 12 without being fast enough to end the game by turn 17 in a 3 player game? Not exactly a case I'd worry about.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
fizzmore wrote:
My point is that the player has no incentive to keep playing the strategy. If a player continues to play a poor strategy that ruins the game for others even after they've played a game and seen it fail there's a simple solution: I wouldn't play with someone who cared more about sabotaging other than winning.


Wow, ok, I guess that is a simple solution for you, but it doesn't help everyone else, most of us think that players should play for themselves and it's not our place to tell other players what they can and can't do. If someone keeps trying something and it doesn't work as often as you think is acceptable then you banish them? Do you have a committee to review winning percentages and decide who can stay and who can go?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Edward
United States
New York City
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
jeffwolfe wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
I do think the suggestion that Masquerade should skip anyone with an empty hand is very reasonable. Donald probably thinks this isn't a serious enough problem to issue errata for, but I do think it would be a fine solution.

To my knowledge, Donald has never issued errata. I believe that's intentional.

The closest we've come is this, from the Secret History of the Prosperity Cards:
Quote:
- $7; King's Court. This got "you may" at the last minute. Throne Room should say "you may," because what if you want to play it for some reason (making Peddler cheaper for example) but don't want to play the only other action in your hand (a card-trasher of some kind say)? The card doesn't keep you honest, like other cards do. And "you may" is a lot less text than "or reveals a hand with no actions," which would also look weird. Anyway it's too late for Throne Room. Should King's Court match Throne Room, or have the fix? It matched up until this version. Man, why not use the fix? That's what I think.

I'm not sure if that's supposed to indicate that he would prefer Throne Room to be errata'd or not.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul W
United States
Eugene
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
fizzmore wrote:
My point is that the player has no incentive to keep playing the strategy. If a player continues to play a poor strategy that ruins the game for others even after they've played a game and seen it fail there's a simple solution: I wouldn't play with someone who cared more about sabotaging other than winning.


Wow, ok, I guess that is a simple solution for you, but it doesn't help everyone else, most of us think that players should play for themselves and it's not our place to tell other players what they can and can't do. If someone keeps trying something and it doesn't work as often as you think is acceptable then you banish them? Do you have a committee to review winning percentages and decide who can stay and who can go?


Really? You're always happy to play with people that choose a play style of prioritizing sabotaging others over their own victory? It's something the comes up in many games, not simply Dominion. In fact, fortunately this is an extremely rare edge case, so my most likely reaction would be not to worry about it as I'll probably never play such a set up again, simply by random selection. Yes, there are (a small number of) people at local gatherings that I avoid playing games with...nothing unusual about that.

I'll leave you be however, as repeated plays of KC/Goons/Masq sets are purely a hypothetical for me...as I rarely play the same set back to back and certainly wouldn't do so with this particular set.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
fizzmore wrote:
Really? You're always happy to play with people that choose a play style of prioritizing sabotaging others over their own victory?


Really? You have a bad habit of putting words in my mouth that aren't what I said.

I'm trying to be more patient these days so I will repeat myself, once. What I said is, I don't find it effective to kick people out of play groups just because they sometimes choose strategies that don't work often enough.

If I had to exclude everyone who doesn't always make the very best plays, I'd be alone at the table. What fun is that? whistle
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Donald X.
United States
flag msg tools
designer
Dominion » Forums » Strategy
Re: King's Court x2 -> Goons -> Masquerade -> Broken
DaviddesJ wrote:
I do think the suggestion that Masquerade should skip anyone with an empty hand is very reasonable. Donald probably thinks this isn't a serious enough problem to issue errata for, but I do think it would be a fine solution.

Barring a typo or a card that turns out not to actually work with the rules, I don't think there will ever be errata for anything. More specifically, I sure don't expect any power-level errata. And (@theory) Throne Room does not have errata; it should have said "you may," but it doesn't; if necessary, and why would it be but still, you could ask someone not in the game to verify that the player has no actions to play.

The central problem with errata is that it's not on the cards. An errata-based solution only works for people who actually look up the errata. Then too you get those people interacting with people who have not looked up the errata, and perhaps get arguments that I can avoid by not having the errata. Whereas not having errata is so clean. The card does what it says. If it's overpowered, some groups will enjoy that, others will choose not to play with it, and some may even house rule it.

It is not my intention to make cards that many people are banning from their table; there are always going to be cards that some people hate, if there are cards that anyone likes at all, but you know. But like, put me in the position of trying to make people like the sets more, now that I've seen them out in the world, and I'm not going to go straight to the powerful cards to nerf them. I'm going straight to the weak cards.

I did not see the King's Court / Masquerade combo in playtesting. I'm sure the cards must have come up, I mean I played those sets together, but I never noticed the combo or saw it done. It is on the subtle side. In theory's blog, there was recently an annotated game that had the combo and neither player went for it.

There are two environments to consider crazy combos for: games played irl, and games played online. I would like a commercial online version to be available and the game will have to work well that way, but so far it's a real card game and that comes first.

IRL, I am most concerned about crazy combos that are two cards within one expansion. I am concerned but less so about crazy combos that are two cards between two expansions where one of the expansions is a standalone, or three cards within one expansion. I am not at all concerned about three card combos between two expansions, or two cards between expansions that aren't standalones, except maybe two small sets since you might play them together as a large set. Anyway the point is, how often does this combo come up? The more expansions you're playing with, the less often you see it.

If you see a crazy thing once in a blue moon, I think that's great. If King's Court / Masquerade is a three-card combo, i.e. if you have to specifically have X Y or Z to make it work (okay a 2.8-card combo or whatever), then I think it's just a cool thing. It won't come up often; when it does you can be the person who spotted it and made out. We have a crazy game and then move on to the next one.

King's Court / Masquerade, if it doesn't require a 3rd card, is more common than that, what with Masquerade being in Intrigue. Some people will just own Intrigue and Prosperity. I have nerfed things at that level in playtesting. I don't think I would have put on a "what happens if someone has no cards in hand" clause, as I bet that looks horrible, however it ends up phrased. Probably I would have combined "everyone passes a card left" with different other abilities, or limited what you could trash.

I don't know that the combo is just those two cards though. I haven't done any testing on this since it came up. I have seen a log of King's Court / Masquerade losing, in a game with no Goons/Militia. Obv. some things make the combo better and some things make it worse. Anyway it's somewhere between a 2 and 3 card combo, which puts me somewhere between wishing it were harder to get and being happy with it. Overall, the amount of time it took for someone to post about it on BGG suggests that it is not ruining Dominion for people irl.

Then there is playing online. You set up your game, invite your sucker, beat them up with a subtle combo. You can't really do this irl. "Go away now, I need someone else to beat up with this." Maybe CABS gets enough people. You sure aren't doing it at your kitchen table. You can beat them up with it once, but even then, now you're that guy.

And online, this combo is just a stand-out way to pick on strangers. Just playing a set of 10 random cards repeatedly gives you an edge, and is against the spirit of the game, if you lie about it (it's obv. fine if some people just want to explore a set of 10). King's Court / Masquerade is a subtle trap, but I'm sure you can find less subtle ones that will still sucker some people.

The solution online is to warn people when the game is rigged. That was good to learn and so much for that.

That's where I stand on this exciting issue! I think it's cool that there was a subtle Masquerade combo hiding out; I like exotic stuff like that existing irl and don't think it will be a problem although if it really doesn't require a 3rd card then it's more common than I would like; online it made it clear that you have to be able to see when your opponent is rigging the game.
27 
 Thumb up
6.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
[1]  Prev «  4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8  Next »  [8] | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.