Pee di Moor
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I have a lot of Saboteur-1 games under my belt, so I know (the spirit of) the game very well.

When I reread the Z-man Saboteur 2 rules today, there was something that struck me, namely

"Blue and Green Gold-Diggers (4 each)"
"A team wins if:"
" a dwarf from THAT team creates the connection ..."
" a dwarf from the OTHER team creates the connection ... "
and
"Both teams win if The Boss, The Geologist or The Profiteer creates the connection"

Thus, taking this literally this means that Blue and Green teams don't win when a Saboteur 'creates the connection'. [And the Boss doesn't get anything as neither team won.] Of course the Saboteurs also did not win as the treasure was reached. [Thus, the Profiteer also did not win]

I think that this interpretation is probably not intended (or in the spirit of Saboteur 1), BUT it would give the Saboteurs an interesting extra option. In case they appear to be losing anyway this may be good damage control: If I'm not winning then you aren't winning either!

So, I really wonder whether this is intended this way, or that we shouldn't take the rules too literally?


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JT Call
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I don't think you're taking the rules too literally, but you're definitely inferring something that was not intended based on what was NOT said.


Basically, the good dwarves win if the treasure is connected to a ladder (that's the same as in Saboteur 1). If a Saboteur connected the path to the treasure, he'd be handing the game to the good dwarves (unless all of the good dwarves had been trapped).

The clarification is meant for when teams play paths that have doors: if the path to the treasure has a green door blocking it, then only the green dwarves would be able to get through the door (and thus only the green dwarves would get treasure). The same is true for blue dwarves and blue doors.

However, if the tunnel is blocked by a blue and a green door, neither dwarf would be able to pass through his opponent's door...so the treasure would be blocked. The Boss belongs to both teams, though, so he can pass through blue AND green doors and collect the treasure for himself. If there is no Boss and the treasure is blocked by a blue and a green door, then the Saboteurs win (with the Geologist and Profiteer collecting their personal treasures irrespective of who wins).

Hope this helps!
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Pee di Moor
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I'm agreeing, but for the sake of clarity I'm playing the devils advocate here ....

talusproteus wrote:

Basically, the good dwarves win if the treasure is connected to a ladder (that's the same as in Saboteur 1).


That's what I ASSUMED as well, but now look closely at the rules....

First it says
"The New Dwarf Cards And Their Victory Conditions"

Note: it does not say "and their ADDITIONAL victory conditions". So I assume the described conditions are the only ones applicable.

And then it continues with the conditions as outlined above, every time making explicit who creates the connection. {and to be fair, I'm assuming (fairly I think) that 'çreates the connection' means the person who places the last card to unlock the gold. If that assumption is incorrect then I think the whole wording is badly chosen, as then it really doesn't matter who created the connection. It would then just count if there is a connection or not ....

[no I'm not a lawyer whistle ]
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JT Call
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moorwild wrote:
If that assumption is incorrect then I think the whole wording is badly chosen, as then it really doesn't matter who created the connection. It would then just count if there is a connection or not ....


Bingo.
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Peter Dahlstrom
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I'm still confused by this, and it's keeping me from playing.

If a Saboteur creates the connection to the treasure, do the Gold-Diggers win or not?

There's actually another one:

The Boss says the win if the Green or Blue Teams win - what if a path is created with both a green and blue door on it, does the Boss win or not?

And, what if there's a path to the treasure with a blue door on it, but there are no green gold diggers - did the green team win even though there isn't one?
 
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Frederic Moyersoen
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Saboteur 2 (expansion-only editions) » Forums » Rules
Re: Who wins when the saboteurs connect .... OR .... taken the rules (too) literally
pdahl wrote:
I'm still confused by this, and it's keeping me from playing.

If a Saboteur creates the connection to the treasure, do the Gold-Diggers win or not?

There's actually another one:

The Boss says the win if the Green or Blue Teams win - what if a path is created with both a green and blue door on it, does the Boss win or not?

And, what if there's a path to the treasure with a blue door on it, but there are no green gold diggers - did the green team win even though there isn't one?


First of all, if the Saboteur creates the connection, he is either a little stupid or he has forgotten his role. This must be a hypothetical question. In any case, if there is a connection, the gold-diggers have won and not the saboteurs.
If there is a path with a blue and green door, the boss is the only player who can win through this path (4 points). This can be a winning strategy for the boss.
If there is a path with a blue door, the blue gold-diggers win (and not the green). If there are no blue gold-diggers, no profiteur and no boss, nobody wins.
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Peter Dahlstrom
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Frederic Moyersoen wrote:
...
If there is a path with a blue and green door, the boss is the only player who can win through this path (4 points). This can be a winning strategy for the boss.
If there is a path with a blue door, the blue gold-diggers win (and not the green). If there are no blue gold-diggers, no profiteur and no boss, nobody wins.


OK, so the boss wins if there's a path, even if no gold-diggers receive gold - gotcha!

Thank you! This helps a lot!

I look forward to playing this soon!
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Nick Green
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Hi - read this from an earlier post by Frederick Moyersoen:

"When a green and blue door blocks a path, no goldminer can win, except the boss who can use both doors! In this special case, he wins alone. He gets 4 points.

If he is not present, the saboteurs win!"

So if there was both a green and blue door present, and a saboteur could be pretty certain that there was no boss in the game (though Inspection cards or methods of deduction)or could trap the boss at a tactical stage, wouldn't that then be a motivation for the saboteur to create a connection to the gold to end the game sooner and be certain of a win?

Under the post (above) surely under those conditions that would be legal or am I being obtuse here? I know its a hypothetical situation, but could that be a strategy for a saboteur to end the game sooner, without having to wait for all the cards to be spent, or would that just be a pointless action?

Many thanks,

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Pee di Moor
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ngmonkeyman1 wrote:

.... wouldn't that then be a motivation for the saboteur to create a connection to the gold to end the game sooner and be certain of a win?

Under the post (above) surely under those conditions that would be legal or am I being obtuse here?


That was exactly my question, but Frederic is very clear:
Frederic Moyersoen wrote:

In any case, if there is a connection, the gold-diggers have won and not the saboteurs.


In other words, if there is a connection, the saboteurs have lost. If there is eg both a green and blue door (and no boss/profiteer) then nobody wins. BUT I can envision games where that situation would indeed benefit the saboteurs ....
 
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Frederic Moyersoen
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Yes, I reconfirm that if the saboteurs establish the connection to the gold, they have lost the round.
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Nick Green
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Aha gotcha.
 
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Didier Aldebert
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I am confused.
On his blog, F. Moyersen wrote:
When a non-saboteur (boss, geologist or profiteer) creates the connection to the gold, he makes the gold-diggers win the round.

If there is no blocking door, both teams win together.
If there is one blocking door, the team of the blocking door, wins.
If there are 2 blocking doors (green and blue), the boss wins alone and gets 4 points. All the other Gold-diggers have lost. If the boss is not present, the saboteurs win.

But F. Moyersen also wrote: "In any case, if there is a connection, the gold-diggers have won and not the saboteurs."

So, if there is a connection (regardless of who placed the last card?) to the gold, can the saboteurs win?

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Brett
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zippog wrote:
So, if there is a connection (regardless of who placed the last card?) to the gold, can the saboteurs win?



No. If there is a connection the saboteurs lose.
 
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Didier Aldebert
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So, the sentence "If the boss is not present, the saboteurs win" is false?
It would be surprising because he designed the game.
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JT Call
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I think it means that, if the other dwarves connect to the treasure but are unable to claim the gold, the saboteurs win.

However, if a saboteur connects to the gold, then the saboteurs should not win (regardless of tunnel blockage or whether the boss is present) because that is anathema to being a saboteur: SABOTEURS DO NOT FLIP OVER TREASURE CARDS. Even if all the other dwarves are trapped, the main perogative of the saboteur should be to win by exhausting the draw deck, not by exposing the gold when no one else can get to it.

Of course, if the good dwarves screws themselves over by finding the gold when no one can actually get to it (because of the green and blue doors), this should count as a win for the saboteurs (because they can no longer exhaust the card deck).

That's how I see it. Maybe the designer can clarify.
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Frederic Moyersoen
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I fully agree with these observations.

Please notice that we are discussing hypothetical situations. In a normal game, you will only try to connect to the gold when you think that you can win by doing so.
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Kurii Kurii
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Frederic Moyersoen wrote:

First of all, if the Saboteur creates the connection, he is either a little stupid or he has forgotten his role. This must be a hypothetical question. In any case, if there is a connection, the gold-diggers have won and not the saboteurs.
If there is a path with a blue and green door, the boss is the only player who can win through this path (4 points). This can be a winning strategy for the boss.
If there is a path with a blue door, the blue gold-diggers win (and not the green). If there are no blue gold-diggers, no profiteur and no boss, nobody wins.


But the rules say that: "The Boss builds tunnels for both the Green and the Blue Team and wins every time one of the teams wins." Meaning if none of the team wins, he doesn't win either.


Would the profiteer win even if both gold-diggers and saboteurs don't win? "The Profiteer always wins, no matter if The Gold-Diggers or The Saboteurs are successful."

And no matter what happens, the Geologist doesn't win or lose; they just get gold from crystals.

??

EDIT: Nevermind, just read the other thread.
 
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Frederic Moyersoen
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Kurii wrote:

But the rules say that: "The Boss builds tunnels for both the Green and the Blue Team and wins every time one of the teams wins." Meaning if none of the team wins, he doesn't win either.


You should also read: "The boss can also win alone by being the only gold-digger in play and connecting to the gold."
In fact, I don't have verified the English version of the rules.

Kurii wrote:

Would the profiteer win even if both gold-diggers and saboteurs don't win? "The Profiteer always wins, no matter if The Gold-Diggers or The Saboteurs are successful."


Imagine a 2-player game with one profiteer and one geologist. The profiteer can win: either as a saboteur, either as a gold-digger.

Kurii wrote:
And no matter what happens, the Geologist doesn't win or lose; they just get gold from crystals??


Consider the geologist as someone who picks up the crystals as they are discovered. As the crystals are printed on the cards and cannot be physically be picked up, we just count the points at the end of the round. We don't care if a path connects to the crystals or gold.

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