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Subject: Losing the 2 last countries with 0 power points at once rss

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Carsten Loehn
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I have discussed that with a lot of experienced players but haven´t found an answer so far.

You control 2 countries with 0 power points so far. One player has the investor card, another one is countryless. In the investor phase the controller of the investor card takes control of my first country an the second person of the other. So I lost my last country which had 0 victory points and would expect to get 1 mil, but who has to pay it? On BSW you get nothing, which I feel is not correct. (On the other hand you get $2mil, if you have one country and both persons try to take control of it which also seems wrong.) If the answer would be something like "Starting from the investor country go through all the countries in the upcoming order, whoever took your last country has to pay 1 mil" another question comes up. In that case it would be possible that the countryless investor could prevent the purchase of the one with the investor card afterwards with his purchse which also is somehow strange. Oh, and what happens if one of the countries had already power points and the other one not?

It would be nice if I could get an answer from Marc Gerdts himself (or a link to it) as I feel the rule book really does not cover that scenario and every answer is somehow speculation.
 
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Tim Schwarz
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thyl wrote:
I have discussed that with a lot of experienced players but haven´t found an answer so far.

You control 2 countries with 0 power points so far. One player has the investor card, another one is countryless. In the investor phase the controller of the investor card takes control of my first country an the second person of the other. So I lost my last country which had 0 victory points and would expect to get 1 mil, but who has to pay it? On BSW you get nothing, which I feel is not correct. (On the other hand you get $2mil, if you have one country and both persons try to take control of it which also seems wrong.) If the answer would be something like "Starting from the investor country go through all the countries in the upcoming order, whoever took your last country has to pay 1 mil" another question comes up. In that case it would be possible that the countryless investor could prevent the purchase of the one with the investor card afterwards with his purchse which also is somehow strange. Oh, and what happens if one of the countries had already power points and the other one not?

It would be nice if I could get an answer from Marc Gerdts himself (or a link to it) as I feel the rule book really does not cover that scenario and every answer is somehow speculation.


Turn order of purchases is clear: first, the holder of the investor card buys, then the countryless player buys. Given that, it seems like the second purchaser is the one who owes you the money. Imperial isn't the sort of game that "remembers" how a game state occured in other circumstances, so why should it matter now? I have no explaination for BSW's implementation, but it appears to allow simultaneous purchase attempts, which is not allowed as I understand the game. That is, if both the investor card holder and the countryless player happened to want to buy the same bond, the investor card player gets it, because he buys first. Does that resolve everything?
 
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Carsten Loehn
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Not really. Order of purchase is not a topic here. That one is clear. But in the rulebook it says "At the end of the investor turn a check is made ..." . So that game phase does not remember who bought what in which order and BSW implementation is fine here: first everyone purchases, then government changes. It also says in the rulebook "If the government of a country that has 0 power points changes and a player loses his last government in this way, this player gets one million from the player who takes over the government.". What really is missing is information about multiple government changes and how they are resolved. Which one is that "last government"?

Let´s make an example. I control Germany and Russia, both with 0 power points. UK goes to investor, investor card holder buys a bond in Russia and countryless player in Germany. At the end of investor phase I lose control of both countries. Who has to pay the money? Would it change if investor card holder would have purchased German bond and countryless player the Russian one? Would anything change if e.g. Germany would have been at 1 power point and Russia at 0?
 
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birchbeer
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...
 
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birchbeer
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In answer to your question itself, I think you'd have to follow the order of purchases.

You own two nations initially. The player with Investor Card buys one. He doesn't pay you $1M because technically you still own one. Now the underground player buys your last nation. He would be the one to have to pay you the $1M.

The order of the Investor card should not matter since the underground player always plays after the Investor Card.

Even though it may not be spelled out that clearly in the rules, I think it's implied.
 
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Tim Schwarz
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Ok, I agree that no country changes control until all bonds purchases have been made and the the investor phase is over. This appears to be how the rule implement the fact that a player who loses control of all countries does not get to buy during that phase.

There are three plausible resolutions:

1) Resolve changes in government in country order (first Austria, last Russia).

2) Resolve changes in player order (starting with the investor card)

3) Resolve changes in purchase order. [I think this is different from 2]

On re-thinking, I think 1 is most plausible, because that is how other situations where country order matters are resolved.
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Carsten Loehn
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After talking to Mac Gerdts himself the answer to the problem is the following:

Although government control changes at the end of the investor phase the payment of the 1 mil is made at the moment you "virtually" lose your last country. So I control 2 countries and the investor card holder invests in the first and would get control of it at the end of the phase. Now if the player without government invests in the second and would get control of that one too, he had to pay the 1 mil. Or in other words: Government changes are resolved in player order at the end of investor phase.

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Adrian Todea
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What is the rule that gives you 1 mil? I'm looking at Rio Grande rules and I cannot find this anywhere... am I looking at the wrong rules (there are already issues/corrections with this one apparently)?
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Babis Tsimoris
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this rule is also in the revised rulebook
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Gabriele Pezzato
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Siromist wrote:
this rule is also in the revised rulebook

I have the third edition rulebook (2010) and there is no mention of a payment of 1 million when players loses control of their last country.
 
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Babis Tsimoris
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amico non ti posso aiutare piu. non c'e ragione di parlare per questo. non cambia qualcosa importante nel gioco. rulebook pagina dieci a sotto -sinistra, l'ultimo paragrafo "Investing without a flag" dice questo. Salute!
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Gabriele Pezzato
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Siromist wrote:
amico non ti posso aiutare piu. non c'e ragione di parlare per questo. non cambia qualcosa importante nel gioco. rulebook pagina dieci a sotto -sinistra, l'ultimo paragrafo "Investing without a flag" dice questo. Salute!

In my version the same paragraph is called "Investing as a Swiss Bank". The same rules of Imperial 2030 have been applied to Imperial in the third edition (which is a good thing, I think)
 
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Babis Tsimoris
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comunque stiano le cose non e importante. stai tranquillo ! salute! cool
 
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Gabriele Pezzato
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Imperial » Forums » Rules
Re: Losing the 2 last countries with 0 power points at once
Siromist wrote:
comunque stiano le cose non e importante. stai tranquillo ! salute! cool

Grazie!
 
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