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Subject: Anyone used MJS Creations/boardgamedesign.com? rss

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Has anyone used these folks to manufacture a game? I'm looking to produce a run of 500 units of my game, and these people have far and away the best price. I'm wonder if anyone has used their services before? Were they reliable? Good quality? Thanks in advance.
 
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I've never personally used them, however I did see a game they produce at my local goodwill.... It had their logo all over the box... The quality seemed good and the components as well. Hope that helps.
 
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I have not, but just remember "you get what you pay for".
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Howitzer_120mm wrote:
I have not, but just remember "you get what you pay for".

Not always. Have you ever purchased any queen's games expansion ninja.
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Doug Loriz

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Sadly, I have. My name is Doug Loriz and my wife and I are the co-owners of www.dnafamilygames.com and designers of a new word game called "Bull's-eye". This was our first venture into game design because my wife had an idea that couldn't be ignored. We found MJS through an Internet search and flew to Nevada to meet with Michael and Lisa Spahitz personally and see their work. What they showed us was great and they seemed like really nice people so in April 2010 we signed a design contract. The design process was pretty slow and we had to provide almost all the creative input. Phone messages left will NEVER be answered - even if you leave them with their receptionist! E-mails will rarely be answered. If you catch them on the phone you'll get more done in a 15-minute call than will happen for the whole week if you don't get into their ears. It gets very tiresome having to constantly call to see if they are making any progress.

Their overall organization is horrible. Time and time again they would get the specifications wrong on critical elements of our project - sometimes after approving the correct specs 3 or 4 times previously. After months and months of delays due to their errors they actually sent the wrong specs to the factory for the final printing of our game! It was unbelievable the amount of errors they made.

1. The box was supposed to be 2.5 inches high. It turned out to be 3". Sounds trivial but what a huge difference in weight, storage space, and shipping costs it has made for us.

2. Our playing cards were supposed to have rounded corners (something I had told them time and time again). They were square and had to be corrected (very unprofessionally) adding more delay to a project that was already 5 months overdue causing us to be without product at CHITAG and the NY Toy Fair as well as missing the 2010 Christmas season.

3. It took them 3 tries to make an acceptable pawn - and then only because I had to draw up the specs for them after they had produced 2 pawns that belonged on the Island of Misfit Toys. They then made a mold that left burrs around the bottom surface of the base causing them to wobble pathetically on the board when placed down. It was agreed they would fix this prior to shipping but they didn't.

4. 1 in 4 of the digital timers in our games malfunctioned because of a loose battery.

After shipment I advised MJS of all the uncorrected problems and all they offered was to keep track of the defects and they would apply a credit to future orders. I asked for a refund and they refused.

We discovered the timer issue 3 months after receiving the games and had already sold 300+ copies. When I said that 25% of our games had defective timers they again said that all they could to was apply a future credit. Really? Fool me once! Who would ever order a second time after all the hassle of the first experience.

Having 1142 games in my warehouse unsalable left me no option but to fix them myself. I have been working more than 5 weeks and have found all kinds of mistakes from shoddy manufacturing. Some games even had pieces from other people's games! Many have missing components but some have extra components. So far 5 out of every 12 (42%) are unsalable. Luckily for me, I am able to correct most of the errors through an incredibly tedious process. The timer is the main issue (though there are many others) and all it takes is a shim behind the battery to make it work perfectly again. I am also shaving all the pawn bases so they stand flat. When done I will still have to shrink wrap them all which will take me at least another month. I asked MJS for only $2500 compensation for my efforts (including the cost of my having to buy a shrink wrap system and shrink wrap - not cheap) and they still refuse to offer anything but a future credit.

I have a full time-line of the ordeal in a MS Word document if anyone wants, as well as photos of their shoddy work. The delivery delays were a whole other debacle.

All I can say is that Michael and Lisa seem like very nice people but their organizational abilities and communication skills are about as bad as you can find. I would never recommend that anyone take a project here. Yes, they will do smaller quantities than anyone else we could find but what good are smaller quantities of unsalable games?
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David Akenson
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Thanks for that extended review. I was in the process of negotiating with them about the production of a number of prototypes.

Do you know any other companies that do a good job?
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arimarima wrote:
Thanks for that extended review. I was in the process of negotiating with them about the production of a number of prototypes.

Do you know any other companies that do a good job?

David, you should not spend a single dollar on prototypes. Here's what real world prototypes from some top designers look like:





(Yep, just a computer printout and some tokens scavenged from other games.)

Also do not give any of your money to any companies promising "inventor help", assistance with patents and intellectual property or anything else.

Read this info before going any further:
http://www.boardgamesaustralia.org.au/design/what-now

Also sign up and ask questions at the Board Game Designers Forum:
http://www.bgdf.com/

It's a minefield of scammers out there. Do not give anyone money. If your game is published, a legitimate publisher will give you money. Not much, but definitely that way 'round...

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What sbzine said!

I have played prototypes of Uwe Rosenberg and Thomas Lehmann and can confirm that they both use hand made prototypes. Maps were hand coloured with texta or pencil (I know because I helped colour one in!)
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Doug Loriz

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I would speak to Ed Davis of GPI (Grand Prix International). They do domestic and international manufacturing. We met them at The NY Toy Fair this year and were very impressed with their work. They have done manufacturing for games you see in big stores (Bananagrams, Scene it? are a couple I know). Their prices are very competitive but I think their minimum order is 1500.

Another US option is Roger Ganger at Delano service (Michigan). We met him at CHITAG last year and we were very impressed with their samples and they seem very organized. I think their minimum is also 1500.

If anyone reading this knows of someone else please let me know. Our game is selling very well (after I corrected the errors) and we'll be needing a second run in the near future.

Good luck!

 
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BoardGameGeek » Forums » Board Game Design » Board Game Design
Re: Anyone used MJS Creations/boardgamedesign.com?
DoLo wrote:
Sadly, I have. My name is Doug Loriz and my wife and I are the co-owners of www.dnafamilygames.com and designers of a new word game called "Bull's-eye". This was our first venture into game design because my wife had an idea that couldn't be ignored. We found MJS through an Internet search and flew to Nevada to meet with Michael and Lisa Spahitz personally and see their work. What they showed us was great and they seemed like really nice people so in April 2010 we signed a design contract. The design process was pretty slow and we had to provide almost all the creative input. Phone messages left will NEVER be answered - even if you leave them with their receptionist! E-mails will rarely be answered. If you catch them on the phone you'll get more done in a 15-minute call than will happen for the whole week if you don't get into their ears. It gets very tiresome having to constantly call to see if they are making any progress.

Their overall organization is horrible. Time and time again they would get the specifications wrong on critical elements of our project - sometimes after approving the correct specs 3 or 4 times previously. After months and months of delays due to their errors they actually sent the wrong specs to the factory for the final printing of our game! It was unbelievable the amount of errors they made.

1. The box was supposed to be 2.5 inches high. It turned out to be 3". Sounds trivial but what a huge difference in weight, storage space, and shipping costs it has made for us.

2. Our playing cards were supposed to have rounded corners (something I had told them time and time again). They were square and had to be corrected (very unprofessionally) adding more delay to a project that was already 5 months overdue causing us to be without product at CHITAG and the NY Toy Fair as well as missing the 2010 Christmas season.

3. It took them 3 tries to make an acceptable pawn - and then only because I had to draw up the specs for them after they had produced 2 pawns that belonged on the Island of Misfit Toys. They then made a mold that left burrs around the bottom surface of the base causing them to wobble pathetically on the board when placed down. It was agreed they would fix this prior to shipping but they didn't.

4. 1 in 4 of the digital timers in our games malfunctioned because of a loose battery.

After shipment I advised MJS of all the uncorrected problems and all they offered was to keep track of the defects and they would apply a credit to future orders. I asked for a refund and they refused.

We discovered the timer issue 3 months after receiving the games and had already sold 300+ copies. When I said that 25% of our games had defective timers they again said that all they could to was apply a future credit. Really? Fool me once! Who would ever order a second time after all the hassle of the first experience.

Having 1142 games in my warehouse unsalable left me no option but to fix them myself. I have been working more than 5 weeks and have found all kinds of mistakes from shoddy manufacturing. Some games even had pieces from other people's games! Many have missing components but some have extra components. So far 5 out of every 12 (42%) are unsalable. Luckily for me, I am able to correct most of the errors through an incredibly tedious process. The timer is the main issue (though there are many others) and all it takes is a shim behind the battery to make it work perfectly again. I am also shaving all the pawn bases so they stand flat. When done I will still have to shrink wrap them all which will take me at least another month. I asked MJS for only $2500 compensation for my efforts (including the cost of my having to buy a shrink wrap system and shrink wrap - not cheap) and they still refuse to offer anything but a future credit.

I have a full time-line of the ordeal in a MS Word document if anyone wants, as well as photos of their shoddy work. The delivery delays were a whole other debacle.

All I can say is that Michael and Lisa seem like very nice people but their organizational abilities and communication skills are about as bad as you can find. I would never recommend that anyone take a project here. Yes, they will do smaller quantities than anyone else we could find but what good are smaller quantities of unsalable games?


Small claims court. No lawyer needed. No out of pocket expense. If you file with your local govt, I believe (not 100%, because my experience here is based on filing in a different situation) they'll be forced to fly to your destination (or hire a lawyer) to represent, which may cause them to simply settle. You might not get the full $2500 (depending on your local laws regarding maximum allowence), but you can at least get something for your trouble. Hell, you MIGHT be even able to file for two different things: loss of personal time to fix, and loss reputation to sell.

This is all BS you should't have to eat, and there's no way their operation is big enough to swat you away. IMO, you're being WAY too nice in fixing these yourself. File with the BBB, ask them to mediate for you, and draft up a very specifically-worded correspondence (with pics), decribing what they did and what you've incurred in damaged parts, rep, and time.

I've worked for other manufacturers where if we didn't make good on what we promised, we could potentially lose our shirt. This should be no different. You were promised something (hopefully with a healthy papertrail and documenation) that wasn't delivered. Further, the compensation (in light of the circumstances) was laughably unsatisfactory.

This isn't Hasbro you're dealing with. Stop monkeying around in the garage fixing their screw ups and get payback.
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Back to the OP...


kerro wrote:
Has anyone used these folks to manufacture a game? I'm looking to produce a run of 500 units of my game, and these people have far and away the best price. I'm wonder if anyone has used their services before? Were they reliable? Good quality? Thanks in advance.



...We might be able to help you better if you can tell us what the components and your packaging expectations are.
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Joe Mucchiello
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MOTHDevil wrote:
Small claims court. No lawyer needed. No out of pocket expense. If you file with your local govt, I believe (not 100%, because my experience here is based on filing in a different situation) they'll be forced to fly to your destination (or hire a lawyer) to represent,

Assuming your contract with them does not place a requirement on the legal standing of the contract. Most contract ask you to agree to restrict all legal challenges of the contract to a specific jurisdiction to avoid those airline costs. Read the contract before taking this route.
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David Akenson
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Thanks, I'll check it out.
 
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David Akenson
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Thanks Doug. I'll check them out.
 
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Michael Spahitz
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FYI, there are many points that Doug Loris has chosen to leave out on MJS Creations behalf. We will leave it to those people reading to decide as it is a free world, and we are here to help people with our company. After all, we have been in business since 1989. If we were running business the way he describes it, we would NOT be in business so let’s be honest and true for the record.

The reality of it is that as with any company, there will be customers that want everything for free, and then whine when they don't get it. There also may be delays if something arises, that is normal.

When Doug came to us for a design, it was a basic square layout that needed lots of design help. We provided concept suggestions for the game play to enhance the playing experience and to make the game board look like a dart board. You can see by the great design that this is what we did with the project. The logo was Doug's design that he insisted on so that we can give him credit for that. As with any design, more ideas come along as the design proceeds. More changes = More time! This can obviously extend the originally estimated design time schedule which Doug didn't understand.

During the Design, the box was never questioned. If Doug had not wanted a larger box, then he should have informed us about this in the Design process. Why wait until after Manufacturing is done to bring it up? This doesn't even make sense.

For the Manufacturing, Doug agreed to terms that he changed. We accommodated him with the changes the first time, but after constant changes to the original agreement and wanting unreasonable changes free of charge, it couldn’t happen and he became disgruntled. We even offered to re-do the cards at NO COST, but he declined because he didn’t want to wait the additional time to produce it. Then he complains about it? This doesn't even make sense.

In brief, we won’t get into all the details and debate everything by feeding into his drama, but to summarize we did everything we could to help him and nothing that any company could do would make him happy. Doug even contacted the BBB which reviewed the situation and of course after reviewing ALL THE DETAILS of the situation, the BBB FAVORED WITH US (MJS Creations) because we did nothing wrong.

We do our best to make our customers projects the best they can be. We make higher quality than what others produce in the industry at a lower cost, with lower minimums. We are here to help the game inventor!
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Doug Loriz

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I am aware that this might not be the proper place to settle grievances, but I am compelled to defend the accusations made against me.

Michael, I understand your need to defend your business, and we wouldn't have chosen your services (after flying to Nevada and seeing your work in person) if we weren't impressed with your prior work. So let's assume everything you say is true. The end result is that we paid for and received 1500 games from your company in a condition that was unsalable by anyone's standards. I had to personally open, unpack, inspect, repair, reassemble, shrink wrap, and repackage 1142 of those games due to your errors. Your only consolation was to offer a credit on a future order of any defective games. You would only consider them defective after they had been opened and deemed so. I couldn’t let my (or “our”, with your name on the box) customers make these discoveries once I knew around 40% were defective. What was I supposed to do with the 1500 games I needed to sell in order to afford another order? Why would I order again from a company who made so many unthinkable mistakes and delivered an unsalable product?

Our business plan would have been ruined if I didn’t go to the efforts I did to make our games salable. Fortunately, the defective timers could be repaired, and most of the missing parts were laughably discovered as extras in other boxes, so that was correctable too. I doubt any other customer of yours would have gone to the lengths I did to correct your mistakes. Our business name would have been ruined had I allowed these games to go out as you made them. It was a monumental undertaking and I asked for such a small compensation for these efforts and you’re labeling me a whiner? Your business logo is prominently displayed on two sides of our box. You should be thanking me profusely for not allowing our customers to see your factory’s work.

BoardGameDesign wrote:
The reality of it is that as with any company, there will be customers that want everything for free, and then whine when they don't get it. There also may be delays if something arises, that is normal.


Whiners don’t typically go to the efforts I did to remedy a bad situation. And just so everyone knows MJS's definition of free: We paid $3506 for the design work (after a discount for letting them advertise on our box), $2,200 for the design and molding of a pawn (which I ultimately had to provide the measurements for to make it work) and $17,640 for the manufacturing and shipping process. The manufacturing contract was signed in late-August 2010. We were promised the games by November 2010. We didn’t receive our games until mid-March 2011. I hope no one else considers this a “normal” delay.

BoardGameDesign wrote:
When Doug came to us for a design, it was a basic square layout that needed lots of design help.


That’s why we hired your design services. This was all factored into the original price quote with the understanding that the final design would evolve from a series of changes and might even end up staying square.

BoardGameDesign wrote:
We provided concept suggestions for the game play to enhance the playing experience and to make the game board look like a dart board. You can see by the great design that this is what we did with the project.


We expressed our main concern with the circular design at our initial meeting. It was that the spaces would get too small as players progressed to the center of the board. While you did come up with a circular design, it was in no way functional. The playing pawn didn't come close to fitting in the spaces from 81-90. You thought the overhang could be accepted by players. Really?! I spent that weekend with poster board, my high school drafting tools, and my daughter's crayons making the design that worked, taking a photo of it, sending that to you in an e-mail complete with detailed measurements and asking you to use that instead. Your design didn't work, but it did inspire me to make one that did, so I thank you for that. Think of the time I saved you there and the cooperative effort we extended to help get this done quickly.

BoardGameDesign wrote:
More changes = More time! This can obviously extend the originally estimated design time schedule which Doug didn't understand.


I just couldn't understand why we could accomplish more on a 15-minute phone call than would be done in a week of waiting. Besides, the design almost finished on time (the delays were all yours). It was the manufacturing that killed us.

BoardGameDesign wrote:
During the Design, the box was never questioned. If Doug had not wanted a larger box, then he should have informed us about this in the Design process. Why wait until after Manufacturing is done to bring it up? This doesn't even make sense.


Maybe this will clear it up for you as I explain it again. During the design process the box size specification was 2.5 inches high. We signed off on this in August 2010 and the Factory Materials sample you sent to us for approval in November 2010 had a 2.5 inch box. Ironically, it was one of the only things you had right in that sample!!!!! Why would we question it at that point? When my wife went to make a sample box to bring to Chitag with us (by pasting your box top print onto the blank materials box), she discovered you designed the Box Top print for a box with 3” sides. We advised you immediately (way before manufacturing actually started), but we let you off the hook as you said correcting it would mean more delays which we couldn’t afford. This all occurred in November – three months after the design was completed, signed off, and paid for.

BoardGameDesign wrote:
For the Manufacturing, Doug agreed to terms that he changed. We accommodated him with the changes the first time, but after constant changes to the original agreement and wanting unreasonable changes free of charge, it couldn’t happen and he became disgruntled.


I researched all of our e-mails to see what you might be referring to here. You indeed did not charge us for a change of font style on our playing cards. That was a very simple fix, and considering all the delays you’d caused by that point I can see why you didn’t send us a bill for it. Changes needed to be made to the Game Board and Box Bottom due to another one of your errors that we all missed. You had designed the board with two 29 spaces in each quadrant and no 39 spaces (each quadrant counted …37, 38, 29, 40). The design I gave you and asked you to copy had all the numbers correct. Did you really want to charge us for that? You and Lisa actually managed to send the wrong specs (in so many areas, including the board with the two 29s that we’d already corrected!) to the factory for the final production run. Did you want to charge us for that? How many times did we catch your errors? And you still sent them the wrong final specs! Did the captain of the Titanic charge his passengers to get on the life boats? After going to CHITAG with just our prototype (we were promised our finished product weeks before that event) we decided to increase our order from 500 to 1500 games because of the great response we had. Incredibly, you hadn't even started production yet. Did you want to charge us for that? How could this affect anything except writing up a new agreement and cashing a bigger check? We were still waiting for an acceptable pawn all this time. Your first attempt was a dart with 5 tails!?? The next was so top heavy it could barely stand. You ended up moving the project to a second factory because of the first factory's "Incompetence" (Lisa’s word).

BoardGameDesign wrote:
In brief, we won’t get into all the details and debate everything by feeding into his drama, but to summarize we did everything we could to help him and nothing that any company could do would make him happy.


There are a lot more details, and I understand why you wouldn’t want to bring them to light as they don’t reflect well on your company. Here’s a sample: The record case had 10 of 12 games unsalable and a case of games that I recalled from a local store ended up having 7 of the 12 games unsalable. Aren’t you glad I kept them from getting into customer’s hands? Could you imagine if we had just discovered the timer issue now? We are currently in over 64 stores in at least 16 states. It may be a drama to you, but it's a real-life financial hardship to me and my family. "Everything we could do" needed to include the most basic fundamental duty of making games that were in a condition to be sold right out of their cases according to agreed upon specifications. We now work with a company who makes us very happy and has commented that we are so easy to work with.

BoardGameDesign wrote:
Doug even contacted the BBB which reviewed the situation and of course after reviewing ALL THE DETAILS of the situation, the BBB FAVORED WITH US (MJS Creations) because we did nothing wrong.


I contacted the BBB after my original post so I did not omit this information from my first post. Remember, by the time I contacted the BBB I had already disclosed that I was fixing the games so they knew I had a product I could sell. You did indeed offer a credit on a future order and I do not deny that. The BBB considered that "good faith". They didn't "side" with anyone. We came to a stalemate where we were not willing to accept your resolution of future credit and you were not willing to offer any monetary compensation or replacement of product. After this experience we would never consider placing a future order with your company. I cannot provide quality control to another shipment without being on your payroll.

I originally posted because a fellow BGG member wanted to know if any of us had had an experience with your company. I did, and I shared it. I have the e-mails and photos to prove everything except what occurred during our phone calls – including an e-mail as late as 12/29/10 from your wife, Lisa, stating, “Thank you for your continued patience.” You and your wife both admitted on the phone that you’d never had so many things go wrong on a project – and this was before we knew that we were going to have to open every game to check for defects once they arrived. It would be much wiser to have your satisfied customers post here than try to defend this particular project. It’s not defensible. You need to hold your factory accountable for this debacle and compensate us accordingly. I sincerely hope you worked out the problems with your factory and your record-keeping so that others won’t have to endure what we did.

It was never my intention to make this public and tried to settle this matter with you privately but you wouldn’t reply. I went to the BBB so that you would have to respond. You can continue this publicly or privately, it’s your choice. You have all my contact information.
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Matt Pierce
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Oh wow. Micheal, you aren't winning any points with that kind of rebuttal. You should have just apologized and claimed that this was an isolated situation, isn't a re-occuring problem for you and it's very embarrassing.

Bad business.



Anyone know if TheGameCrafter.com is worth it? It seems like a hobbyist designer's dream.
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Brook Gentlestream
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sakket wrote:
TheGameCrafter.com is worth it? It seems like a hobbyist designer's dream.

I think you might get better responses to this by starting a new thread with "The Game Crafter" in the title.
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sbszine wrote:
arimarima wrote:
Thanks for that extended review. I was in the process of negotiating with them about the production of a number of prototypes.

Do you know any other companies that do a good job?

David, you should not spend a single dollar on prototypes.



Well I wouldn't say a "single dollar". For my prototype, I used Paint.NET (free) to draw the board and cards on my computer. Then I printed out the board, glued it to a poster board using double-sided tape (I like one piece boards for my prototypes). Printed out the cards on card stock, cut and sleeved them for shuffle-ability. I ordered some blank 1" wooden tokens ($4) and printed unit designations on sticker paper. Bought random colored wooden cubes ($5) for other elements.

I estimate I spent less than $20 including cost of the paper, ink, sleeves and tape. Its still a WIP.
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lordrahvin wrote:
sakket wrote:
TheGameCrafter.com is worth it? It seems like a hobbyist designer's dream.

I think you might get better responses to this by starting a new thread with "The Game Crafter" in the title.


From what I understand it's commonly used to make clean prototypes at a reasonable cost. Sorry, I thought that was on-topic.
 
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Brook Gentlestream
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sakket wrote:
lordrahvin wrote:
sakket wrote:
TheGameCrafter.com is worth it? It seems like a hobbyist designer's dream.

I think you might get better responses to this by starting a new thread with "The Game Crafter" in the title.


From what I understand it's commonly used to make clean prototypes at a reasonable cost. Sorry, I thought that was on-topic.


It's not a question of being on topic or not... It's just that the title says "Anyone used MJS Creations" so a lot of people who may know about the Game Crafter may not be reading this thread.
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Sturv Tafvherd
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Well, I haven't seen the OP (kerro) respond to anything in this thread.
 
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Michael Spahitz
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Pahrump
Nevada
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Obviously Doug is not being honest. The end result is that something out of our control happened with the factory that we had create the parts and we did in fact have to switch to a new factory at our expense. Obviously we wouldn’t pass that cost on to a customer. However there was an unreasonable request by Doug to rush, rush, rush it and don’t wait for approval to ensure everything is perfect.
We have been in business since 1989 and this is the first ever customer that there is a problem (that’s a really great track record!) Even so, we tried to resolve it with offering to re-do things at our expense even though we were NOT at fault, because it was approved by Doug, the customer. However he refused as he didn’t want to wait to have it redone. You want’ wait until AFTER THE FACT to re-do things, it has to be done at the time of manufacturing. We still offered the credit toward a future run in good faith thought it wasn’t our fault that Doug reviewed and approved everything, then changed his mind a few months after receiving it.

We have more safety nets in place than ANY other company to prevent this. Customer approves proof prints, then (what no one else does), a full color factory sample is sent for approval BEFORE manufacturing. We went through this and Doug approved it all. Then he changed his mind after the original contract was fulfilled. You cannot change square corner cards to round after they have been cut! Doug was informed that this would not be satisfactory, however he insisted and we tried to accommodate it, then he wasn’t happy with the result. If the customer wants to request it, we will accommodate them.
WE MADE NO DEFECTS IN THE GAME, and anything that was so called “defective” was at Doug’s request.

We definitely fulfilled our part of the contracts with a great design and quality manufacturing. Proof is in the pudding. We produce hundreds of games a year and never have a problem!
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Michael Spahitz
United States
Pahrump
Nevada
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Sakket Pico

No reason for us to apologize as we didn't do anything wrong, and we bent over backwards to help the customer. We truly are here to help other game inventors, we are not the typical business just here to make quick money. We are there fort the long haul to help inventors with a quality design and quality manufacturing. That's why we've been in business so long.

But thank you for the advice & opinion, it was well received had we done something wrong it would have been left along and I wouldn't have said anything!
 
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Joe Mucchiello
United States
Edison
New Jersey
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BoardGameDesign wrote:
WE MADE NO DEFECTS IN THE GAME, and anything that was so called “defective” was at Doug’s request.

So you are saying he is lying about the electronic timers being faulty?
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