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Subject: "A Good Friend" usage? rss

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Jon Schultz
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Does this allow you to take a card, use it, then return it back to the player you took it from to keep A Good Friend?

Example: I use A Good Friend to grab a Hunting Rifle from another player's discard pile, adding it to my hand. On my turn, I use the Hunting Rifle to fight and scavenge, at which point it goes to my discard pile. Can I then take it from my discard pile, put it back in the owner's discard pile, and thus keep my A Good Friend card?

Or, do I only get to keep A Good Friend if I return the Hunting Rifle without actually using it?
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Max Holliday
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bootylactin wrote:
Does this allow you to take a card, use it, then return it back to the player you took it from to keep A Good Friend?

Example: I use A Good Friend to grab a Hunting Rifle from another player's discard pile, adding it to my hand. On my turn, I use the Hunting Rifle to fight and scavenge, at which point it goes to my discard pile. Can I then take it from my discard pile, put it back in the owner's discard pile, and thus keep my A Good Friend card?

Or, do I only get to keep A Good Friend if I return the Hunting Rifle without actually using it?


Yes.

No really your right, what happens is before this turn ends you must choose to either put the card you 'borrowed' back into that Survivor's discard or you must to lose the 'A Good Friend' card you played this turn.

Max

Edited do to trade secrets
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Cameron Chien
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Hmm, so if I were to use A Good Friend to CENSORED...wait does A Good Friend CENSORED it???

*runs to go check his game*

Cameron
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David Smullens
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aw man, trade secrets edited out - hopefully Cameron will do the same.
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Max Holliday
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Narninian wrote:
aw man, trade secrets edited out - hopefully cameron will do the same.


hahahaha!
 
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Cameron Chien
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There we go

Cameron
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Jon Schultz
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Max, I saw your "secret" before you edited it. No one is trying that because I doubt anyone would think that play was legal. I could see the other players at the table questioning an attempt like that. I've not played it with my gaming group yet but I could see them crying foul.
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Max Holliday
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Hay, it's not a secret I just don't want to the one explaining all this little dirty tricks in the game.

Just let the other players in your group know that...

A) if a card doesn't any of the sign's and doesn't have a ruling for when you can play it, (this will be in small print in the 'Text Area') that card can be played at any time on any players turn.

B) that 'A Good Friend' doesn't say anything about who ends up in control of the card you take only that you must decide to return it of lose 'A Good Friend'. So you may return the 'borrowed' card from anywhere it may end up at the end of the turn.

That's the last little trick I'm going to reveal you'll just have to find the rest on your own. There are still a few tricks no one has posted about yet... the last one was that you could use DeadEye to kill a Zombie just so you could add a zombie from your hand that you couldn't have other wise (ie. if you have a Level 8 with 1 Attrition in your hand you could play DeadEye to kill the only zombie in the Horde and then add the L8 from your hand, also if your only playing with 2Players you could then add the Zombie you just DeadEye'd as well...)

There are a lot of things hidden in the game... I'm going to do a 'Rotten Easter Egg' hunt some day and see who can send me the longest list of fun tricks and hidden images on the cards!

Anyway, I'll stop having fun from now on! Thank you all! Now I need to get back to working on the......
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Jeff Burgess
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Jiblet wrote:
B) that 'A Good Friend' doesn't say anything about who ends up in control of the card you take only that you must decide to return it of lose 'A Good Friend'. So you may return the 'borrowed' card from anywhere it may end up at the end of the turn.

As this is the rules forum, I personaly don't really find being coy a good quality here. I get that you're trying to be cute and not show off all the little tricks and secrets, but the lack of clarity in the rules makes this frustrating, not cute. It's hard to tell is something is actually a 'good trick' or violating the rules.

I believe what you're saying in B) above is that taking a hunting rifle via AGF, losing that hunting rifle to attrition, you may 'return' it despite the fact you've lost it to attrition (or some other means).

It's unclear if you're saying the person you borrowed this from would get it returned from the swag piles or if it 'fizzles' in some manner and you get to keep AGF and the lender is out one hunting rifle.

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David Smullens
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I think it pretty clear on its usage. No matter where the card ends up - it goes back to its owner's discard pile unless you give up AGF.

So in your example, if you used AGF to get a hunting rifle (for your own or another player's discard pile) and successfuly fled. You could choose to lose the hunting rifle as part of the attitrion cost. It would then be returned to the discard pile it came from (including yours) unless you gave up AGF(in which case it would remain in the swag pile). This is a neat little trick I didn't think of.

 
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Jeff Burgess
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Narninian wrote:
I think it pretty clear on its usage. No matter where the card ends up - it goes back to its owner's discard pile unless you give up AGF.

So in your example, if you used AGF to get a hunting rifle (for your own or another player's discard pile) and successfuly fled. You could choose to lose the hunting rifle as part of the attitrion cost. It would then be returned to the discard pile it came from (including yours) unless you gave up AGF(in which case it would remain in the swag pile). This is a neat little trick I didn't think of.


I agree that's what Max is implying. My point is that it's not exactly obvious from the rules.

Basically what you're saying here is that a card, despite being lost to attrition, is still 'in play' and can have effects (such as the 'return at end of round' effect from AGF) applied to it while it is in the swag pile. That's highly non-intuitive and if true, should be explicitly stated somewhere.

It also means AGF is a bit odd - I'd think the purpose of the card,mostly, is to borrow a needed item to get you wha tyou need to beat the zombie horde. As it is, that's pretty good, since you can grab the highest fight/flee card out in any discard pile - and if you like it enough, keep it!

This also means AGF can be used at any time to effectively reduce the attrition cost to you by 1. Take a card(any card), lose it to attrition, give it back from the swag piles. You lost nothing, the other player lost nothing, the attrition just hurt you one less. If this is legal, I doubt most players will even move the card around and just play this as a direct -1 attrition card (or the other usage above)

"Hey Bob, thanks for the hunting rifle....too bad I dropped it somewhere on 5th street when I was fleeing the zombies...oh...I see it's teleported back into your hands! Great!"

Edit: To be clear, the way I feel this should work is that if you lost the 'borrowed' item to attrition, giving it back to that player is no longer an option (since you lost it) and you must now lose AGF.
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Ken B.
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Ruval wrote:

Edit: To be clear, the way I feel this should work is that if you lost the 'borrowed' item to attrition, giving it back to that player is no longer an option (since you lost it) and you must now lose AGF.


That was my interpretation too. You have no control over swag piles unless you buy from them; so you cannot perform a "return" on a card or pile you don't control.

I'll play it however Max says, but it seems to me if you don't have control of the card anymore, you can't return it. You're not a very good friend if you steal my rifle and then throw it in the river as soon as you see a zombie horde coming.
 
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Jon Schultz
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Ruval wrote:
Basically what you're saying here is that a card, despite being lost to attrition, is still 'in play' and can have effects (such as the 'return at end of round' effect from AGF) applied to it while it is in the swag pile. That's highly non-intuitive and if true, should be explicitly stated somewhere.


AND

franklincobb wrote:
Ruval wrote:

Edit: To be clear, the way I feel this should work is that if you lost the 'borrowed' item to attrition, giving it back to that player is no longer an option (since you lost it) and you must now lose AGF.


That was my interpretation too. You have no control over swag piles unless you buy from them; so you cannot perform a "return" on a card or pile you don't control.

I'll play it however Max says, but it seems to me if you don't have control of the card anymore, you can't return it. You're not a very good friend if you steal my rifle and then throw it in the river as soon as you see a zombie horde coming.


I'm in agreement here. You'll notice my post above in this thread:

bootylactin wrote:
Max, I saw your "secret" before you edited it. No one is trying that because I doubt anyone would think that play was legal. I could see the other players at the table questioning an attempt like that. I've not played it with my gaming group yet but I could see them crying foul.

Well I finally did try it with my gaming group, and the game itself was very well received. However in our second game, 'A Good Friend' was in play. When I explained how it could be used when we were setting up, my description didn't "sit well" with the group (just like it isn't sitting well with Ruval and franklincobb). I had to keep reassuring them that I had in fact gotten the ruling straight from game designer. Your comments about "control" of the card and whether you could move it from one pile to another are the very same questions I had to field from my game group.

And just for the purposes of full disclosure, here's what Max wrote in his "trade secrets" which he later edited out:

jiblet wrote:
pisssss... I don't like giving away any of the secret strategies in Ebz! but no one ever seems to figure this one out no matter how many times they play the game... You may target any 'card' not just Swag and if you choose to return that 'card' to the Survivor's discard, you don't have to be in control of it you just have to make sure it ends up their... even if they or someone else where to have killed that 'card' you can still pull it out of their discard and place it into the Survivor's discard... haha try it it will blow there minds when you first try it!

So for example, you can pull a Zombie from player A's discard, slap it on player B's horde, and after player B is done (regardless of whether he fought or fled, and whether he was successful or not), you take the zombie from whatever pile it ended up in and move it back to Player A's discard, and you get to keep "A Good Friend".

The whole notion of "control" and "ownership" of the card has no bearing at all, which as Ruval said is quite non-intuitive. It's the very reason I stated that no one would ever think to try this. I guarantee you that my group would not have allowed anything like this to take place if I decided to "try" it in a game without explaining it was possible first. And even after the explanation--which came straight from the game designer--they still thought it was "stretching the rules" to allow this.
 
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Jeff Burgess
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bootylactin wrote:
jiblet wrote:
pisssss... I don't like giving away any of the secret strategies in Ebz! but no one ever seems to figure this one out no matter how many times they play the game... You may target any 'card' not just Swag and if you choose to return that 'card' to the Survivor's discard, you don't have to be in control of it you just have to make sure it ends up their... even if they or someone else where to have killed that 'card' you can still pull it out of their discard and place it into the Survivor's discard... haha try it it will blow there minds when you first try it!

So for example, you can pull a Zombie from player A's discard, slap it on player B's horde, and after player B is done (regardless of whether he fought or fled, and whether he was successful or not), you take the zombie from whatever pile it ended up in and move it back to Player A's discard, and you get to keep "A Good Friend".

The whole notion of "control" and "ownership" of the card has no bearing at all, which as Ruval said is quite non-intuitive. It's the very reason I stated that no one would ever think to try this. I guarantee you that my group would not have allowed anything like this to take place if I decided to "try" it in a game without explaining it was possible first. And even after the explanation--which came straight from the game designer--they still thought it was "stretching the rules" to allow this.



Thanks for posting the hidden text - but - What the *expletive*?

No one would ever think of trying this in the same way no one ever thinks of just plain robbing the bank in Monopoly (I know, your little brother probably did. Bear with me...). That money is out of play. I wouldn't think I can use it unless I'm explicitly told to (passing Go, told I can now 'buy swag cards', etc).

If no one can figure out the super secret trick, it's much more likely that the rules are unclear than that every single person who ever played the game is overlooking it.

I'll admit that AGF can target zombies and you can use that to add to another persons horde is 'a good trick'. It's my oversight that AGF says 'target card' not 'target swag card'. By this reading, when it's player A's turn, I can take a zombie he just killed last turn out of his discard, make him fight it again, return it to him...and we're still considered 'good friends' because the zombie returns from his discard pile...to his own discard pile.

My head hurts.
 
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Cameron Chien
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We just play it as if it says "swag card" and it works fine.

Cameron
 
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Jeff Burgess
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Zeede wrote:
We just play it as if it says "swag card" and it works fine.

Cameron


I'm actually fine with being 'a card'.

I just dislike being able to return/affect cards that have left your control.

I'm personally going to housefule it that if you don't control (in your hand/discard/played cards area) the card you took with AGF cannot be returned and you must lose AGF.

The whole concept of being able to return something you've lost is silly.
 
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Cameron Chien
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I agree.

Cameron
 
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David Smullens
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Once a card is played (and goes into your discard) it is 'out of your control' until you draw it again. Whats the difference between that swag card that is out of your control (because of being in your discard) and a swag card that is out of your control (because of being in the middle) and a zombie that is out of your control?
 
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Ian Luxmoore
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My problem is that thematically your deck/discard represents your safe house, your hand represents what you are carrying, and the swag piles represent stuff outside the safe house. It doesn't seem right to "borrow" a card from a friend, drop it while fleeing outside, then somehow return it to your friend afterwards despite having lost it. You aren't a good friend if you lose what you borrow...

Also one thing I like about this game is the lack of "tricks" in it - the feel of the game is much cleaner/rawer than that, and benefits from being that way. This trick feels counter to the nature of the game.
 
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Ernie Barrett
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Eaten by Zombies! » Forums » Rules
Re: "A Good Friend" usage?
So does "anytime" really mean "anytime" in regards to exactly when you can play this? For example if a person is about to shuffle their discard pile to create there deck, can i choose to play this before they do so? Can I play this immediately after i "find" it? Or are there certain "phases" when this must be played?

We have been playing anytime means anytime but just wanted clarification to make sure, especially in the instances noted above.
 
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Jeff Burgess
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Narninian wrote:
Once a card is played (and goes into your discard) it is 'out of your control' until you draw it again. Whats the difference between that swag card that is out of your control (because of being in your discard) and a swag card that is out of your control (because of being in the middle) and a zombie that is out of your control?


A card in the discard is still 'my card'. I still own it. I can still lose it to attritrion. It's still thematically my swag in my safe house - a card owned by me as a player. Mechanics wise, it's really not uncommon for card effects to act on the discard pile, but every knows who owns/controls those cards. Control doesn't mean you can play them freely, however.

Cards in the swag are not owned by anyone. Hence why it is not in my control.



 
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Jeff Burgess
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ErnieB wrote:
So does "anytime" really mean "anytime" in regards to exactly when you can play this? For example if a person is about to shuffle their discard pile to create there deck, can i choose to play this before they do so? Can I play this immediately after i "find" it? Or are there certain "phases" when this must be played?

We have been playing anytime means anytime but just wanted clarification to make sure, especially in the instances noted above.


It seems to. It makes AGF pretty much the single most flexible card in the set:.

Per this ruling, I could take a zombie you killed last turn from your own discard pile, add it to the horde you have to fight and make you fight it again - then return it to you from wherever it ends up. We're still good friends.

I could take the single highest value fight/flight card from any discard and use it to win fights/flights. Return it, and we're still good friends. Or I can keep your card, effectively costing you a 'hit point' and lose AGF.

Worst case, it can always be used to effectively make a loss -1 attrition (so long as at least one person has 1 swag card in their discard). Even from successful fleeing attrition loss. I remember you could, theoretically do it but at half effectiveness (fleeing a 2 attrition zombie IRY has no effect, AGF would reduce the loss to zero). This is by doing the 'I borrow your card, lose it to attrition, and return it to you' trick above.

Assuming if you have multiple "A end of turn" events you get to choose the sequence in which they occur (a typical ruling), this is possible as well.
- I play "I saw it first". At end of turn, I'll need to lose ISIF.
- I clean up my cards (this is not 'End of Turn' as steps occur after it). ISIF is now in my discard.
- I target myself with AGF and take ISIF into my hand. I cannot play it, however as I'm past my clean up step.
- I resolve ISIF's 'end of turn' effect, losing it.
- I now resolve AGF's 'end of turn' effect, returning it to my discard.

Either this is legal or we need clarification on what sequence ultiple 'end of turn' effects resolve in.

I may need to go through my cards and see what other kind of crazy tricks this ruling creates.
 
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David Smullens
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AGF is a nice card - but gameplay wise I wouldn't say its overpowered.

The 2 situations you mentioned (using AGF to keep "I saw it first", and to lower attrition cost by 1 on a successful flee) have a pretty big opportunity cost, as it takes up a space in your hand and you dont get any +fight or +flee with AGF in those cases. In addition if its used for the other non-obvious use ('using' a zombie against another player) then thats also a hand slot taken up which doesn't provide the basic defenses against zombies (+fight or +flee)

Finally, if its used in the 'accepted' way - simply to grab a card from somebody's discard to help with your fight or flee; This will only be a possible option sometimes, or at the very least it will only be useful sometimes as people dont always have good cards in their discard due to having reshuffled.
 
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Jeff Burgess
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As this is the rules forum, I apologize for dragging us into 'power' discussions. I've edited my post to drop that point. My point on ISIF was not that it's powerful - it's probably the weakest use of it listed - but that this ruling (cards still resolve effects applied to them regardless of where they end up, even in areas traditionally considered 'out of play') has some very far reaching effects.

In particular I'm concerned this may have on card interaction in the future. My point with the ISIF example is that any card that says "Do something powerful, then lose this card and end of turn" can have the "lose this card at end of turn" effect completely negated by playing AGF.

As written, the card can be used to really screw your opponents (add a zombie to their horde, which can take them from a 'win' to 'lose' and lose 4 more attrition to that loss), to borrow a card to get a win in a clutch situation, to outright steal that card, in addtion to very unique tricks like the ones listed.
 
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Alexander Mont
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Here's another scenario:

I use AGF on an opponent's discard pile to borrow a Hunting Rifle. I then use the Hunting Rifle in combat but I fail to kill all the zombies and have to lose cards to attrition. I choose to lose cards from the top of my deck, and in the process I run out of cards in my deck and have to shuffle the discard pile (including the Hunting Rifle I just borrowed) into my deck.

- Suppose I don't flip the Hunting Rifle for attrition. Do I get to look through my deck to find the Hunting Rifle to return? If so, do I need to shuffle my deck afterwards?

- Suppose I do flip a Hunting Rifle for attrition, but there was a second Hunting Rifle in my deck from before. Do I have to determine if the Hunting Rifle I flipped was the same one as the one I borrowed? If so, how? (I guess flip a coin?)

===

Also:

Suppose I use AGF on an opponent's card on his turn, and he turns into a Zombie Player on his turn. Can I still return the card I borrowed, and if so, what happens to it? (Does it just stay in front of the Zombie Player with no effect? Can it be borrowed later by other players playing AGF?)

Suppose that on my opponent's turn, he plays a card with a Draw effect which will cause him to reshuffle. Can I "respond" by playing AGF to take a card out of his discard pile before the reshuffle? If not, let's say he has one card in his draw pile, he plays a "draw one card" card, and I think he has another "draw" card. Can I tell him he has to stop before he plays the second card? In general, do you have to pause after every card to give other players a chance to play "any time" cards, like in Magic: The Gathering?

(Don't get me wrong; I play Magic a lot and I like it. But Magic-style timing tricks just seem out of place in this game.)

 
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