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Subject: PLEASE IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO HELP ME rss

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Justin Tackett
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I think there should be more than one copy of some cards in the "base" box. Having only one copy of each card is not going to allow people to make very reliable decks, as it will be fairly unlikely they'll get to that one copy of any given card.

Going off of my limited LCG experience (Lord of the Rings), the base game had three copies of *most* cards, and then two copies of some and one copies of others. In the expansion packs, there were three copies of each card. I think the best course of action if you don't want to (or can't) put three copies of each card in the "base" set would be to put multiple copies of some cards and maybe only one or two copies of some of the more powerful cards. If you do go this route, you could offer a supplemental "expansion" that had the extra copies of those cards to get everything up to three. I and many other people out there don't want to feel the need to buy three copies of a game in order to get a "complete" experience.

And I echo someone else's earlier suggestion that you partner up with someone in the US to get this put on Kickstarter. That's been a huge help for many individuals (and smaller board/card game companies) in getting funding for their product. Just recently, D-Day Dice became the best-funded game on the service (currently at over $113K). That kind of exposure is essential for something like this, I would think.
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Justin Tackett
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wormhole surfer wrote:
Did you alerady played NR ?
If so you know how playable it is in sealed games, with only "highlander decks" i can play a thousand of times... don't be feared about the playability of the game right out this box


I have played it many times when it was first out, but it's been at least 10 years now, so my memory of how many copies of cards needed might be a little shaky.

If people in general agree that only one copy of each card are needed to play and enjoy the game and it's not going to cause all of the more devoted/hardcore audience to have to buy three "core" sets to get the decks they want, then I don't see a problem with it.

It ultimately comes down to what is financially viable. You're setting up this venture because you love the game, but you also don't want to lose money in getting this thing printed.

I don't have any experience on the business end, and only as a consumer. I know I didn't mind only getting one copy of some cards in my LOTR:LCG box at first, as I didn't see the power of some cards, or just didn't realize it. After getting deeper into the game, it kinda irked me that I didn't have multiple copies of some cards (and they weren't restricted to one per deck). I finally caved in and bought a second set, but would've much preferred if there was another option, because now I've got 3 extra copies of all of the "common" cards that I have no use for. I think I ended up only being able to use about 50ish cards out of that second set (to get all my two copy cards to three, and my one copy cards to two). If I had to buy a third set, I believe I'd only be using about 13 cards, which isn't really worth the money, I don't think.

Back to your product though.. Yes, buying three copies of your "base" set to get three copies of every card would be much cheaper than acquiring those via the CCG model, but if you're trying to move away from the CCG style of distribution, I don't think they can be compared.

In the end, all of us want the most bang for our buck, and it's going to take a lot of research and input to figure out what works best for everyone involved.
 
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Sean Ahern
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From your post:

Quote:
1 create a little icons on cards showing that is a "memorial" set and/or
make all the cards ( or the old rares one) FOILS and/or
make all the cards or some of them ( rares? ) with some alternative art

or maybe a good mix of this .. what do you think ? could it be attractive ? if the production cost are expansive for a such thing will you buy it even if the cards are exactly the same ? ( i need to have beginner and expert advise ...)

2what could be the ideal price for a such box ?
i though about 40 to 100 $ i know it is a huge gap but production costs will be balanced with all the things i suggests upper and also with quantity printed .

3 will you buy it ? ( expert and / or beginner)

4 will you buy it only when released or are you able to support NR and help us to preorder the box before the released ?


1. I have no interest what so ever as a collector so FOIL cards hold no interest for me. In fact, it's probably just annoying. A little icon to differentiate it from the original would be fine. Alternate art would be fine as long as it's good.

2. Cheaper the better, but it would have to be easily playable. I would probably go as high as $80 for all the cards + dupes for playing. Set up like the LCG of Fantasy Flight Games, I'd say $60 is my max.

3. Yes. I haven't played since it came out, so beginner.

4. That really depends. This may sound a little harsh but if it was coming from an experienced publisher I'd pre-order it in a heartbeat. Coming from a passionate fan who has no experience in publishing games, I'd wait to see if I thought they could handle the job.

(Harshness alert)
I'd suggest taking some more time on your posts, spelling out all your words, and using punctuation. You being French, I understand your less than perfect English but don't use internet shorthand. If you're going to be asking people to send you money, be as professional as possible.
(End harshness alert)
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Drew Dallas
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XShagrath wrote:

Going off of my limited LCG experience (Lord of the Rings), the base game had three copies of *most* cards, and then two copies of some and one copies of others. In the expansion packs, there were three copies of each card. I think the best course of action if you don't want to (or can't) put three copies of each card in the "base" set would be to put multiple copies of some cards and maybe only one or two copies of some of the more powerful cards. If you do go this route, you could offer a supplemental "expansion" that had the extra copies of those cards to get everything up to three. I and many other people out there don't want to feel the need to buy three copies of a game in order to get a "complete" experience.


Just an FYI but this is pretty much the most complained about thing with the LotR LCG. Of course that is because you can only have 3 of any one card in a deck so that means if you buy a 2nd core set any cards which came 3x are wasted. IMO there needs to be the same number of every card in the box so when you buy a 2nd box you don't have 10x of one card and 2x of another.

Quote:
i'am pretty sure that many stores/lurker will buy the box, open it and sell singles cards so that you can just complete your decks without buying the bix box .

I would say given that this type of distribution has been done before with all the LCGs that you are very wrong. I follow the LCGs very closely and there are virtually no secondary markets for those games. In order to break down core sets secondary sellers have to make the cards people buy most often extremely expensive. And when you are paying $15 for a card but can buy another full core set for $30 it makes more sense to buy the full core set.
Dont' worry about the secondary market. You are going to kill them with this product and it isn't your responsibility to keep them alive. It is your responsiblity to provide a fun game for your customers. LCGs do not support secondary markets or much trading so if I were you I would concentrate on what your goal is and that is to get Netrunner back in print.

 
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darksurtur
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I don't think I am alone if I say this: I probably won't buy this if it is geared around preserving the CCG rarity scheme and/or a secondary market. There are many LCGs that are thriving, and not by chance; follow those models, learn from their mistakes, and offer playsets instead of individual cards. I don't mind if this means the game rules become limited to a 3X max model.
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Jens Kreutzer
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Quote:
1 - No foils, ok with the icon.
2 - $60
3 - Base set for sure.
4 - Support as soon as I know what's inside the box.


+ 2

You should stay away from including multiples of cards in your set. Netrunner is not Magic, fortunately. The aim for the box should be to enable highlander/(simulated) Sealed play, and that is enough fun to be had for $60 or so. Sure, if you want to build a Clown deck or an ice destruction deck, you'll need multiples. Well then, buy multiple copies of the box. It will still be a lot cheaper than acquiring the cards elsewhere.
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* Follow the Dominion model.

* Two of each card. That way, casual players will have a wide variety of cards to try out. Hardcore types will buy two sets without extra or wasted cards. Casual players will also have the option to buy a second set if they wanted to.
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Luc VC
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1. I'm not crazy about foils, but I could live with an icon.
Some updated artwork might be nice.
2. I'd pay around $50-60
3. The base set I would surely get. Then see what the LCG format add, but I'll probably get those too.
4. I'd pre-order/kickstart(and the likes) as soon as I know what I'd get.

Tx for working at this .
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Kenneth Rasch
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1. New Icon would be enough. No foils. Maybe some special tokens included in the box?
2. 50-60 $.
3. I would probably buy 2 sets to begin with. Maybe a 3rd later, to have 3 of each card
4. I would preorder the box before release!

I really hope this is going to happen!
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darksurtur
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wormhole surfer wrote:
darksurtur wrote:
I don't think I am alone if I say this: I probably won't buy this if it is geared around preserving the CCG rarity scheme and/or a secondary market. There are many LCGs that are thriving, and not by chance; follow those models, learn from their mistakes, and offer playsets instead of individual cards. I don't mind if this means the game rules become limited to a 3X max model.


Hi again, i don't follow you...

who said that the rarity will still be ?
who said that the box will be created for singles cards seller ?

that was just a suposition of me...if i were a beginner and if i would build a trc decks with 18 TRC so maybe yes i could buy singles cards to complete my TRC set instead of buying 18 boxes...In that cases, it is players who creates the second market not the editors ...

all cards in a box doesn't make rarity to me...
if you speak about the fact that rarity could still be indicated in a checklist inside or written on cards so yes i vote for, because we will need it to generate starter/boosters and emulate sealed games

Why do you speak about a limitation of 3 ? 3 copies doesn't make a playset in Netrunner, there is no limitation, no standard.NR is a very free game, where people have their own way to play.
A such limitation ,in NR, doesn't make any sense.
you say that i think because you know FFG games which are often limited in 3 or 4 copy and so you would play seriously NR right out the box ...

I understand you and agree with that. but you should admit that it is impossible to release a box of 1122 cards for the price of 220 ... do you agree with that ?

oh yes we could ... the box would cost around 150-200 $ .. who will buy it ? nobody...
it is better to set up a cheapest thing in order to play the simpliest way ( but not the worst way)and if you want you buy more ... the total price will be the same anyway ...



Of course I don't think releasing 1122-card sets is a good idea. I do think releasing smaller sets with 3x of each card is. And I think it might be useful to at least consider that, if the game is changing its business model, it might be necessary to change some of the rules. A 3x of the same card rule might be one of those things. It's just an idea, and one that is uninformed, since I have never actually had a chance to play Netrunner.
 
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Drew Dallas
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Netrunner » Forums » News
Re: PLEASE IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO HELP ME
One thing I think would be a good idea is to split this up into a base set with an expansion. If the full set of NR is 370 cards then I'd pick 200 of them that will make the best play experience in a initial set and then add the additional 170 in some form of expansions.

Although I will also echo the thought that some kind lower per card deck limit is likely a good idea (coming from someone who has never played though).
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Drew Dallas
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wormhole surfer wrote:


yes i though about that (see upper), but it will "break" the "memorial aspect"

So? If your goal is to get this to see print and continue with eventually new cards and a reinvigorated game I think getting new players into the game is more important than releasing the full set intact just to memorialize the original canceled game. Now if you really just want to reprint the original cards and stop there then releasing them all at once is preferable.

wormhole surfer wrote:
one thing that i can't understand with your comments ( but i thank you to comment ! ) is that you seems to not take into account that netrunner has no rules of limitations, no standard
the game is also playable in highlander than any other format
we can't sell more than needed card for most of players who don't want to ...meaning we can't sell boxes with 2, 3, 4 or any number if it rise up the price ( and in any manner it will rise up the price, even if we divided the base set)

When I suggested cutting down to 200 cards I'm not suggesting it so you can release duplicates. I'm suggesting it so you can get the pricepoint lower. Yes fans of the original game might be willing to plunk down $60 but looking at this from the point of view of a new player who has a choice between this and a $40 LCG core set and most are going to choose the cheaper option.

One thing the existing LCGs do is they don't just dump cards in the box. They are providing a board game like experience by giving the buyer 4ish decks they can play out of the box with little need for deckbuilding. This has obviously been a successful strategy for FFG and the LCG type games not produced by FFG do similar things. Which is why I think reducing your card count to 200 to provide 4 50 card pre built highlander decks is your best move. It gives you a lower price point and it allows you to provide a board game like experience for people to try out your game. Then if they like it you can release the expansions for them to buy to customize their decks (and reprint the other 170 cards)

I do realize that from what has been said here that netrunner has no per card limit but I think that is going to hurt this game and again from a new player perspective it is a huge turnoff. When I look at a LCG and get people interested in them it is largly by explaining to them that "suitcase" players are now obsolete for the most part. It is easy to keep everyone on a level playing field. If you can truly run 18 copies of a single card though and that means that whoever is crazy enough to buy 18 copies of the core set is going to be at an advantage.


wormhole surfer wrote:
But i have to admit that i can understand you because we know many games and many games are played with multiples copies .

Netrunner is a briliant games, in all of his aspects and of of its ( that provokes his death partially) that it was very very very playable in sealed /highlander games)

Is there some disadvantage then to running multiple copies of a card? Because if there isn't then I don't see the point in saying it is playable highlander. Magic can be played highlander but few do it and few highlander decks would do well against a constructed deck.

wormhole surfer wrote:
you'll see, becoming more experienced that NR doesn't any limitations because many archetypes of decks could only exists by letting players playing sometimes 6, 9 or more times a card ...

I'm just saying it might be something to consider that it could be beneficial to limit the number of cards in a deck to 3 or 4 for the health of the game in this new format. Sure some deck types might get killed, but at the same time it would open up new deck types as the meta evoloved. Obviously I'm not the only one to see this as a potential problem as darksurtur is saying he can see it being an issue also.

wormhole surfer wrote:
it ias very hard to explain by text, most of it is liek discovering a treasure , it takes time to find and understand, only many many many games will teach You that
we ( old NR players) will always be with you to teach you


Thats the thing though, how many won't see because the first event they go to they get beat by someone with 15 of card X and they realize that to compete on a level playing field they would have to buy 15 copies of your game. Most players I know would just quit the game right there and move onto something more reasonable.

I'm not trying to naysay but hopefully a view from outside from a person who has played 40+ different CCGs and who closely follows and collects all of FFG's LCG games getting many new players and former ccgers hooked on the distribution format can highlight where you might run into issues.
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darksurtur
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Darksbane wrote:

I'm just saying it might be something to consider that it could be beneficial to limit the number of cards in a deck to 3 or 4 for the health of the game in this new format. Sure some deck types might get killed, but at the same time it would open up new deck types as the meta evoloved. Obviously I'm not the only one to see this as a potential problem as darksurtur is saying he can see it being an issue also.
...

Thats the thing though, how many won't see because the first event they go to they get beat by someone with 15 of card X and they realize that to compete on a level playing field they would have to buy 15 copies of your game. Most players I know would just quit the game right there and move onto something more reasonable.

I'm not trying to naysay but hopefully a view from outside from a person who has played 40+ different CCGs and who closely follows and collects all of FFG's LCG games getting many new players and former ccgers hooked on the distribution format can highlight where you might run into issues.


Thank you for backing me up. I firmly believe that rules need to be looked over when the distribution model changes. The distribution model seems to have greatly influenced the first iteration of NR; their is no reason it should not influence the second one. Slavish faithfulness is a mistake.
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Brandon M
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darksurtur wrote:
I don't think I am alone if I say this: I probably won't buy this if it is geared around preserving the CCG rarity scheme and/or a secondary market. There are many LCGs that are thriving, and not by chance; follow those models, learn from their mistakes, and offer playsets instead of individual cards. I don't mind if this means the game rules become limited to a 3X max model.


Agree with this. Even FFG tried to have some less common cards in their LCGs, and they realized that was a mistake. I believe they include full playsets in all new products except their base games now (and a lot of people get annoyed when base games don't have 3 of each card).

I can live with buying a second copy of a base game, because I understand that having a variety of cards is important when introducing a game to new players. But if you tell me I should buy 3 copies of everything that comes out, that diminishes one of the biggest advantages of selling a card game in fixed sets.

Ludovic, you're planning on publishing this yourself? Do you have any experience with publishing games?
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Josh Morgan
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First a reply to your questions:

1. Icons
2. $40-60 USD
3. Yes I would buy it. I've never played the game but am very interested to try it.
4. I would likely preorder, but can't say for certain without seeing what the content of the game is.

Another thought that I don't believe has been mentioned is to split this initial release into separate Runner and Corporation products. Maybe do two copies of every card for each faction. This would seemingly satisfy those demanding multiple copies in a box, while maintaining your need to profit/produce the game for a reasonable cost. In addition to the cards, perhaps a play mat of some sort could be added as well. I think I've seen some playmats used to track the various currencies/points/whatever in the game as well as outline turn flow, tips, etc here on the geek. This would help some of us *cough* me *cough* who are completely unfamiliar with the game and present it as more of a "board game," which it actually sounds closer to than a CCG.

Of course I'm saying this as someone with zero experience with the game, so I could be completely off base here. Regardless, best of luck with this project and hope you can actually pull this off!
 
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Jonathan Harrison
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rhoubhe wrote:
Another thought that I don't believe has been mentioned is to split this initial release into separate Runner and Corporation products. Maybe do two copies of every card for each faction. This would seemingly satisfy those demanding multiple copies in a box, while maintaining your need to profit/produce the game for a reasonable cost. In addition to the cards, perhaps a play mat of some sort could be added as well. I think I've seen some playmats used to track the various currencies/points/whatever in the game as well as outline turn flow, tips, etc here on the geek. This would help some of us *cough* me *cough* who are completely unfamiliar with the game and present it as more of a "board game," which it actually sounds closer to than a CCG.

Of course I'm saying this as someone with zero experience with the game, so I could be completely off base here. Regardless, best of luck with this project and hope you can actually pull this off!

Absolutely no offense intended, but this would be like selling the black and white chess pieces separately, or, even more accurately, the board and the chits separately. You must have one set (whatever that set is like) of each to play.
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Maankin, Gent.
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1. new icon, no foils
2. 40-50€
3. the base set for sure, maybe 2 (beginner, only played it a few times)
4. need to know the quality of the card stock/printing. Then possibly pre-order..

One of each card would be nice.
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In my humble opinion, I don't not like just getting one of each card.

Gaming has changed drastically in the 15 years since Netrunners original released and something things may have to change if you want a chance at success.

The main goal is to sell the full Netrunner experience as a cost effective price point. If a new player that has never played Netrunner before plays decks with only 1 of each, that's not giving a fair representation of Netrunner and it will probably not earn new followers. I feel that multiple copies, lets say 3 for argument sake following a 1 per 15 ratio with a 45 card deck, enables players to build solid decks functional decks without the reliance of lucky draw when you only have 1 of each. You can print 3 copies of 80 unique corp and 80 unique runner cards for 480 cards total. They other cards might have to wait for future releases.

Unfortunately some sacrifices might have to be made. Some formats might have to have variants and some cards might have to be dropped in order to get a wider appeal and the right price point.

Most deck building games come with around 500 cards. LCG, which is purely a Fantasy Flight Games invention, comes with less cards at a high price point.

My earlier suggestions about multiple copies and/or preconstructed decks are to make game the game more accessible and more adoptable hence earning new followers.

Just a reprint of 1 of each is just a re-release and doesn't do much to further the future of Netrunner and I don't think it will fair any better on the marketplace than it's original release. You have to format and reinstall Netrunner, not just reboot the system. Sell the Netrunner game and not just resell Netrunner cards.
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In Addition, if the set only contains 1 of each card, a player who only bought one copy has a significantly inferior deck to somebody who has bought multiple copies. That's difference from a CCG and LCG/Deckbuilding.

No player should have an advantage over another based on how much a player spent and multiple copies shouldn't need to be purchased to get the real/full experience.
 
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HuginnGreiling wrote:
rhoubhe wrote:
Another thought that I don't believe has been mentioned is to split this initial release into separate Runner and Corporation products. Maybe do two copies of every card for each faction. This would seemingly satisfy those demanding multiple copies in a box, while maintaining your need to profit/produce the game for a reasonable cost. In addition to the cards, perhaps a play mat of some sort could be added as well. I think I've seen some playmats used to track the various currencies/points/whatever in the game as well as outline turn flow, tips, etc here on the geek. This would help some of us *cough* me *cough* who are completely unfamiliar with the game and present it as more of a "board game," which it actually sounds closer to than a CCG.

Of course I'm saying this as someone with zero experience with the game, so I could be completely off base here. Regardless, best of luck with this project and hope you can actually pull this off!

Absolutely no offense intended, but this would be like selling the black and white chess pieces separately, or, even more accurately, the board and the chits separately. You must have one set (whatever that set is like) of each to play.


No offense at all! Like I said I'm a complete newb when it comes to this game. Forgive my ignorance whistle
 
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If you want to keep the price point low, you could ask a subquestion, targetted at people who never played NetRunner, concerning the need (or not) to update the current artwork. Art comissions are a HUGE money sinker in CCGs creation, and I bet discovering that potential customers quite like the aesthesics of the current cards will quicken a lot your negociations.
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Current artwork is just fine by me. I'm most interested in playing a great game I've never had the chance to try.
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Very interested, no need of foils.

Kickstarter would be the way to go...

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Justin Tackett
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If you have the rights to go with the original artwork, I would do that to cut down on costs. Artwork can be *very* expensive, so contracting out to artists for 400ish cards would be a ton of money! I'm perfectly happy with the old artwork if it is available.
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I'm in.
 
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