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Subject: PLEASE IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO HELP ME rss

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1 Use new icons for this set, good idea. I hate foils, they warp and ar ugly. Who invented these foils anyway? Alternate art is a must, use new fresh updated art.

2 Not more than 40,-Euro's.

3 No, I own the base set and decks.

4 I would only buy when released.

Wish you all the best with this project. Good idea. You're driven, go on with it. Meet your goal.
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Jon W
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dragonstout wrote:
I know about the breakdown...but does 11 completely random runner vitals really guarantee you a breaker of each type and a tag-avoider and I-forget-what-else-is-vital? I don't think so.

It doesn't. I had never sorted this out before, but an interesting question. It's actually 15 vitals for Runner, with 4/4/4/3 guaranteed sentry/code gate/wall/tag cards (from a set of 6/5/5/6 vitals, respectively). So it's possible to not get a base link, but never possible to not get a particular type of breaker. (I don't think the Corp had similar "sub-sorting" restrictions on its vitals, so some starter decks were a little heavy/light on agenda points, but I'm not sure.)

Anyway, hence my issue with seeing the same cards too often (not that they're bad cards; in some cases they're a little too essential). That's all fine in a world where you buy a starter or two and then all boosters after that, but less so in a new "fixed" model.
 
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I've played quite a few CCGs back in the day, had never played Netrunner before, but heard quite a lot of good praise for it, so I am definitively interested.

Reading though this thread I can feel that Ludovic and others love NR a lot, and I think everybody else is really more qualified than me to say whats "the best way" to play Netrunner.

I've noticed that the main point of conflict is on how many copies of each card should be included in the box. From a newbie that never played before, I'd say that it is totally a moot point for me. I just want open the box and play a game!! You see, I don't know enough to care if there is one or 15 copies of a card in there, I just want to play the legendary game that is called Netrunner.


But then again, maybe I'm not your target customer. Sorry to tell you this, but I don't think a big box of 375 different cards attracts me or other causal gamers that never played before. Of course it is possible to play any CCG by randomly pulling 45~75 cards in a deck, but how can you promise me a satisfying experience of playing Netrunner that way?

I feel that some jerk will get a bad experience from just a few plays, and complain that this big box is just a method of forcing bunch of overpriced cards down my throat. But I also agree that it is very probable that I will come to the same conclusion as you, and think it is best to play sealed or highlander by buying your big box. But then again, since I've never played before, I have no idea what I am talking about.

Actually, I just hope you experts can come up with a few packages that can best lure & hook me in to buy Netrunner, and meanwhile teach me to play it your way, and have a good game all the time.


And now, to the poll questions...

1. Since I never played before, I can't comment on the artwork, but I think that Icons should be small enough to put in a non distracting corner, and can be used as rarity symbols by changing colors. Foil cards are just a bad idea, but I'm actually fine if its only just a cool promo version of an existing normal card.

2. $20~$30 for a starter set, and hopefully under $70~$100 for a full box set

3&4. I would like to buy a few preconstructed deck to try out the game quickly, but still have the option of obtaining a full set relatively easily if the urge comes up. (yes, I know that is probably too much to ask for)


Sorry for the long post, sort of just felt like typing it out...
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wormhole surfer wrote:
I am just a player, a fan, maybe the biggest in terms of quantity of rares, times spend, games played ( sorry if you find me “showoff” don’t know the “good word” in English for that but I played over than a thousand times and yes I am crazy of it)
But I want to do something
I WON’T NEVER republish the game by myself so don’t be feared about giving money to me , or quality of reprint or questions about that.
A such reprint will be done by professional of this market
May goal here is just to gather informations, giving them to people caring aboug them and engaged a dialog I am more a linker than the person who will do it…
...
The risk for me doing that is that nothing will happen and I will have spend a lot of time for nothing, ok no problems I accept it.
The risk is also that Wotc or another company rerelease the game using all the work I did without considering me … ok I accept

MY ONLY GOAL IS TO SEE NETRUNNER ALIVE, THAT’S ALL.

Not to find opponent because I have many, not to get cards because I have ( except for tournaments where my stock decrease …) But just because I consider NR as my baby and just to push it “under the light” and make people realize again how it is good .


I really appreciate this post and am starting to come around on some of your points.

On the other hand, while I agree that something of this ambition requires some publisher experience, I very sincerely believe that if this happens think you deserve to share in many of the rewards, financial as well as intangible. This is largely driven by your efforts and knowledge, and you are clearly putting in many hours on this. Don't sell yourself short (literally).
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Netrunner » Forums » News
Re: PLEASE IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO HELP ME
I am so happy that you are undertaking this endeavour; Netrunner was a huge part of my teenage years and I would easily spring for an LCG/ Big Box venture of original cards

Over the years I've lost, gifted and sold my collection of CCG's, and when I thought back on it, the only game I really missed was Netrunner. I've been reduced to playing with proxy cards since I started playing again, but I know 4 other friends that I play with regularly- and this is the generation that never saw the game the first time around. And they adore it.

I think there's definite scope for marketing a non-CCG model here. Please keep us informed!

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David Boeren
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I currently play the Call of Cthulhu LCG and wanted to bring up their model and how players perceive it.

They sell a Core set with 1 copy apiece of 165 cards (plus rulebook and accessories). No duplicates of any cards.

The good part about doing 1 copy per card is that players get to see more cards. The job of the Core set is to get people interested in the game as well as to be a fun game with sufficient variety "out of the box". From that standpoint the Core set works well.

The downside for serious players is that you need to buy three copies of the Core set to get a full set of cards. This is made significantly more expensive than it should be because you're also buying three copies of all the accessories. Many players have complained about this and wish that Fantasy Flight would offer an expansion with 2 copies of all the Core cards (just cards, nothing else) they could buy to fill in their collection. If you decide to go with 1 copy per card I would urge you to look at this expansion idea. It reuses the same cards you're already packing in the Core so it should be fairly easy to do as there is no separate printing outside of a different smaller box.

I agree with others that you should do as many cards as you can fit for a reasonable price. $50 seems like a reasonable target. I'd personally pay $60, some folks may only be willing to go $40.

I would prefer to see expansions be in the 3-copy format (is that the max number you can take, it's been so long since I played that I'm not sure?). Once you've decided you like the game enough to expand it, I think you an safely assume the player wants a full playset, that he is serious.

I think the LCG model is fantastic, much better than CCG for many players and absolutely the right way to go with the reprint. If you can successfully get the rights and rerelease this I'll be lined up to buy a copy and any expansions that come out. Good luck, all of our hopes go with you!
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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The problem with an LCG model for Netrunner is that it has no card limits. You could theoretically need 20 copies of a card. Even worse, the utility of a given quantity of a card varies wildly. There are some you would rarely need more than one of, and others you frequently use 8-12 of. It's a packaging nightmare, because of course not everyone agrees on what reasonable quantities are. You are pretty much guaranteed to have too many or not enough to please everyone.
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sdiberar wrote:
The problem with an LCG model for Netrunner is that it has no card limits. You could theoretically need 20 copies of a card. Even worse, the utility of a given quantity of a card varies wildly. There are some you would rarely need more than one of, and others you frequently use 8-12 of. It's a packaging nightmare, because of course not everyone agrees on what reasonable quantities are. You are pretty much guaranteed to have too many or not enough to please everyone.


Or maybe the rules could change to accommodate the new format. That remains my preferred solution (just print differently named cards with the same function in expansions if 6 or more are really needed).
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wormhole surfer wrote:
darksurtur wrote:
sdiberar wrote:
The problem with an LCG model for Netrunner is that it has no card limits. You could theoretically need 20 copies of a card. Even worse, the utility of a given quantity of a card varies wildly. There are some you would rarely need more than one of, and others you frequently use 8-12 of. It's a packaging nightmare, because of course not everyone agrees on what reasonable quantities are. You are pretty much guaranteed to have too many or not enough to please everyone.


Or maybe the rules could change to accommodate the new format. That remains my preferred solution (just print differently named cards with the same function in expansions if 6 or more are really needed).


no sorry but that is an impossible thing.

Changing that is changing Netrunner too far from its concept, if you change that then building and construction will means nothing.
I like 1/15 but is is far away from the liberty of building we encounter in No limit .

maybe you should try to run NRO and print proxy and try to get deeper into the game to relize that by yourself ...

I keep repeating myslef without make you realize that ... and i can't with words .. ah if only you were near Paris


I wish I were in Paris myself ... I'll defer to you but, with my complete lack of experience with the game, the 3X idea is intuitively appealing.
 
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Here is my idea from the "BIG BOX Reprint" thread, which speaks directly to the problems stemming from the no-limit format that Scott articulated very well:

Quote:
Here are my assumptions:

- The original NR starters were (are!) great for newbies.
- No card limits is a unique feature that should be preserved.

Here are my ideas for the initial "core" product:

1. Go with 1 copy each of a set of X (300?).

2. Select cards across published sets, maybe 10% new ones (reboot the game, don't just reprint it).

3. Use icons to group cards by type for easy breakout for "standard" play (the new equivalent of sealed).

4. Steal Race for the Galaxy's starting deck idea for beginners (mark sets of cards with tiny "alpha", "beta", "gamma", etc., so you can quickly form workable decks with simple complementary cards).

5. Add 120 "proxy" cards, no artwork, marked "A" through "J" x 6 cards each (so 60 for Runner, 60 for Corp). Call them something thematic (e.g., "Clone Card A" or "Initialize Variable C", whatever).

6. Have a double-sided playmat; "Basic" side with helpful stuff for newbs, "Advanced" side with "slots" to hold the proxied cards for easy reference.

7. Sell proxy sets independent of the core set. More A-J sets and maybe a K-T set for those wanting more than 6 of a given card or to replace worn cards. Of course, for many decks, you could use A & B to get 12x a given card, and so forth.

8. Release expansions along the same lines, just smaller sets (150 cards?).

I realize that the proxy idea could make for a clunky experience, but I think a clearly marked reference area will go a long way to making it easy. Constructed is for more experienced players anyway, and this accommodates them and newbies, who can just ignore all that and build their clearly marked sets after each match. This way there are no redundant cards and you have a ton of deckbuilding flexibility right out of the box.

Standard/sealed play would be fairly easy, too: just use the icon sets to break out stacks, shuffle each stack, draw a subset of each to guarantee a valid deck, and play.
 
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Answers to the questions from NRO

1. I don't care too much about the symbols. I would buy a box set starter if there was some commitment from FFG (or whoever) to a number of expansions that would include new content. I really like the art, so hopefully that wouldn't change too much. I think foil cards are silly, but that could just be me.

2. $40 =/- $5 seems about right.

3. See 1.

4. If FFG (or whoever) would commit to enough expansions with new content, I would happily pre-order.


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1) Symbols to denote it is an LCG/Non-collectible version of the game is perfect. It allows the collectors to retain a product that is unique and very difficult to find while renewing interest in the game's collectibility.

2) $40-60 MSRP sounds very reasonable for such a great game

3) Indeed I will purchase this.

4) I would Kickstart/pre-order this game for sure. Netrunner is still the most fun I've had playing a card game.
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Mark crane
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wormhole surfer wrote:
i've looked @kickstarter .. it requires to be a permanent resident of the USA ... :(

i've found that :
http://babeldoor.com/

it is the same but for French people ;)


Follow the money.
 
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Chris Gerber
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1. I think the set icons are a good idea. I know some people like foils but, at least to me, they raise the price for no real gain, aside from being shiny. Not to mention foil cards physically warp sometimes. Myself, I'd rather see my money go towards there being more cards in the set rather than foils.

2. I think $60 would be ideal. Obviously the cheaper the better (especially for those of us who are considering buying more than one set), but from what I hear, it sounds like $60 is fair.

3. I would definitely buy it if I had the chance. My only concern about a limited run would be that it would sell out before I had a chance to get everything I wanted (especially with the likelihood of people buying more than one set).

4. I'd be happy to pre-order. Hopefully, though, there will be enough to go around that people who didn't pre-order still get a chance to buy (or people that want to buy multiple sets don't necessarily have to do so all at once).
 
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David Boeren
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darksurtur wrote:
sdiberar wrote:
The problem with an LCG model for Netrunner is that it has no card limits. You could theoretically need 20 copies of a card. Even worse, the utility of a given quantity of a card varies wildly. There are some you would rarely need more than one of, and others you frequently use 8-12 of. It's a packaging nightmare, because of course not everyone agrees on what reasonable quantities are. You are pretty much guaranteed to have too many or not enough to please everyone.


Or maybe the rules could change to accommodate the new format. That remains my preferred solution (just print differently named cards with the same function in expansions if 6 or more are really needed).


Yes, changing the format to put a reasonable card limit (no more than 4, preferably 3) seems like it would almost be a necessity. Without it, it becomes prohibitively expensive to collect a full set of cards which many players will see as desirable to do.

The other option is to package extra copies of some cards and fewer of others, but that runs into several problems:
1. Still has a perception that you might want more copies of the ones that only pack a few
2. Depends on someone deciding for every individual card how many copies people need, it's extra work and some players will disagree and feel they're forced to buy more anyway
3. When they do buy more they'll feel they wasted money getting massive duplicates of cards they DIDN'T want more of

It just seems like a train-wreck all around and will drive people aware who aren't Netrunner veterans because they're the only ones who will probably understand WHY at a glance. I'd much rather have a nice neat model where you can take X of any given card and X-many come in the box. As darksurtur pointed out, you can still pack extras of some cards by giving them different names and maybe slight differences in functionality.

Frankly, unlimited copies of cards would make the game a harder sell to new players and that's the last thing we need if we want to resurrect it.
 
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Ludovic schmidt
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dboeren wrote:
darksurtur wrote:
sdiberar wrote:
The problem with an LCG model for Netrunner is that it has no card limits. You could theoretically need 20 copies of a card. Even worse, the utility of a given quantity of a card varies wildly. There are some you would rarely need more than one of, and others you frequently use 8-12 of. It's a packaging nightmare, because of course not everyone agrees on what reasonable quantities are. You are pretty much guaranteed to have too many or not enough to please everyone.


Or maybe the rules could change to accommodate the new format. That remains my preferred solution (just print differently named cards with the same function in expansions if 6 or more are really needed).


Yes, changing the format to put a reasonable card limit (no more than 4, preferably 3) seems like it would almost be a necessity. Without it, it becomes prohibitively expensive to collect a full set of cards which many players will see as desirable to do.

The other option is to package extra copies of some cards and fewer of others, but that runs into several problems:
1. Still has a perception that you might want more copies of the ones that only pack a few
2. Depends on someone deciding for every individual card how many copies people need, it's extra work and some players will disagree and feel they're forced to buy more anyway
3. When they do buy more they'll feel they wasted money getting massive duplicates of cards they DIDN'T want more of

It just seems like a train-wreck all around and will drive people aware who aren't Netrunner veterans because they're the only ones who will probably understand WHY at a glance. I'd much rather have a nice neat model where you can take X of any given card and X-many come in the box. As darksurtur pointed out, you can still pack extras of some cards by giving them different names and maybe slight differences in functionality.

Frankly, unlimited copies of cards would make the game a harder sell to new players and that's the last thing we need if we want to resurrect it.


no changing that will change all the core of building which will become uninteresting .if you change that then deck building is almost dead, if you change that then it won't be NR anymore and if it is not NR anymore, no reason to reprint it.
i don"'t knpw where is the problem by letting people playing 20 cards if they want...
1 that's why it needs to be sold in 1 copie. or even number
2 i is exactly the same whatever the number of cards in a pack ...
3 that's why i talked about store opening the box and sell for single the cards ...

why unlim copies will discourage new players ?
do you think i started the game will all the cards i have ?
 
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Ludovic schmidt
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i don' know why people don't want to trust expert players of NR telling that 3 copies means nothing and restrict the game too far ( it is not uninteresting but quite ...)
no limit allow 1000 % more deck than 1/15
stop thinking lcg think how to play netrunner
why waiting for a reprint since all cards are on NRO go there print cards and play, just discover the game by yourself... you'll see we are right
 
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dboeren wrote:
Yes, changing the format to put a reasonable card limit (no more than 4, preferably 3) seems like it would almost be a necessity. Without it, it becomes prohibitively expensive to collect a full set of cards which many players will see as desirable to do.

Please see my proposal about using formal proxy cards.

Quote:
Frankly, unlimited copies of cards would make the game a harder sell to new players and that's the last thing we need if we want to resurrect it.

New players won't need to be doing much deck building. "Sealed" play is very good in NR, better than in any other CCG, and even many NR veterans prefer that format.

Again, I refer you back to my post on using proxy cards. You could have a full base set (374 cards), marked with simple icons and/or "starting deck" markers to help beginning players and anyone wanting to play a randomized setup. Then off to the side, an "advanced" game using formal proxies to stand in for multiples of a given card if you want to build decks.

The hard sell, to me, would be truncating the card set and diluting it so much out of the gate with unnecessary multiples (making it less variable and harder to do randomized setup) that beginners have a "meh" experience.
 
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wormhole surfer wrote:
i don' know why people don't want to trust expert players of NR telling that 3 copies means nothing and restrict the game too far ( it is not uninteresting but quite ...)
no limit allow 1000 % more deck than 1/15
stop thinking lcg think how to play netrunner
why waiting for a reprint since all cards are on NRO go there print cards and play, just discover the game by yourself... you'll see we are right


Where do I go for that? I don't think I could find them there when I was surfing it last night, I know big error on my part but I was looking.

Also where do I send you my address?
 
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Jake Fernandez
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Goodness! Godspeed to you Mr. Schmidt. I'm telling you know, you already have my money if you are able to bring this back in a serviceable package. I think this is very hard to screw up. That being said, I think if you can get new art for this, that would be great.

1. Make all cards with alternative art
2. I'd pay 100USD for it, but it needs to be amazing. Otherwise, put it at 75USD.
3. BUY IT YES! (beginner). 1 copy only. I don't want this to be the kind of product where I need multiple copies.
4. Sorry probably buying it when released only since I live in Philippines and shipping from publisher is expensive.
 
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Sometime in the future I'd love to read a 'publisher diary' blog entry about how you got this project off the ground.
 
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Drew Dallas
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wormhole surfer wrote:
1 that's why it needs to be sold in 1 copie. or even number
2 i is exactly the same whatever the number of cards in a pack ...
3 that's why i talked about store opening the box and sell for single the cards ...


i don' know why people don't want to trust expert players of NR telling that 3 copies means nothing and restrict the game too far ( it is not uninteresting but quite ...)
no limit allow 1000 % more deck than 1/15
stop thinking lcg think how to play netrunner
why waiting for a reprint since all cards are on NRO go there print cards and play, just discover the game by yourself... you'll see we are right


It isn't that people don't trust you. But that doesn't change the fact that it is a hard sell for new players with those types of deckbuilding rules.

Since this is strictly a play format issue why not at least consider adding a new tournament type/play format? You can have your classic where you can have unlimited number of cards, sealed, draft, and a new restricted format of 3x each card. Still sell the base set with only 1 of each and then support both formats in official tournaments.
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David Boeren
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I'm not sure how to feel about how this is going...

The boardgamers (in which group I count myself) tend to keep saying that the game needs to fit the model that new players want to buy.

The Netrunner veterans tend to keep saying that changing it to a form people will find appealing to buy would ruin the game.

So are we agreed then that the project is doomed to be a total failure for everyone except veteran players who are just looking to round out their existing CCG collections and will toss the rest of the game?

The proxy solution will work from a mechanical point of view, but I still don't think players will take to it. If so, why not just write everything on some slips of normal paper and skip the re-release altogether?


I have taken to heart that sealed play is very good, as I have heard this said many times over many years by many different people. Perhaps we should deemphasize the open deck building and concentrate on precon? Offer sets of pre-constructed decks with a limited number of open card slots to use for customization where you can add/replace existing cards. This is very roughly similar to how Blue Moon works.

Then we would have a natural product to offer - a core set containing 4 Corp and 4 Runner preconstructed decks, plus some number of miscellaneous cards to use for customization. You can have your own copies, or draft them, or whatever you like. Offer an optional gameplay model of open deck building but with modified pre-con as the default for out of the box play. Call the open version "advanced" or whatever if it makes you feel better. Over time, you can release more preconstructed decks with new cards and themes, which give you more base decks to customize but also give open players a greater cardpool.

I think most players will want to do at least some customization if they like the game at all. Telling them they need to buy enough sets to get 20 of each card is unreasonable. Nor is expecting new players to know how many of each card they need, or follow arcane ways of getting the right number of each one if they aren't sold that way to begin with. Some sort of restricted format is necessary that allows people to feel like they have a full collection for a reasonable amount of money while still offering enough room to play with deck designs to keep the game interesting. Figuring out how to offer this is I believe the key to making the reprint successful to gamers at large and not just Netrunner veterans.
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dboeren wrote:
I'm not sure how to feel about how this is going...


I agree that a proxy solution is not a good idea. Aesthetically and mechanically, it goes against everything that we have learned from the last 15 years of board game design in order to appeal to a small contingent of existing players, many of whom already have all the cards they want.

In general, I understand why some players want to keep the "no limit" aspect. But to say that a 3x limit will make the game "uninteresting" seems to clash with the idea that it ALSO thrives in a sealed format.

Likewise, the idea that the game is perfect as it was published all those years ago seems self-contradictory, considering that that A) led to commercial failure, and B) CCGs themselves revolve around the notion of organically and regularly changing and evolving.
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darksurtur wrote:
Likewise, the idea that the game is perfect as it was published all those years ago seems self-contradictory, considering that that A) led to commercial failure, and B) CCGs themselves revolve around the notion of organically and regularly changing and evolving.

This I wholeheartedly agree with. I love NR. I would probably call it my favorite game (out of...I don't know...600ish games played/owned in my life). But I don't think it's perfect. There are some cards that are just too commonly used, some never used, some errata to incorporate, swaths of under-explored functions because expansions stopped. I'd love to see Garfield get the license sorted and partner with a good publisher and make this all happen in an LCG sort of model.

Also, I'm not entirely sold on "no limit". I like it, mostly because it's a unique (unprecedented?) idea. It also permeates the design, in that a few basic functions would have to be spread over many new cards if you put in a 3x restriction (one-shot bit gainers leap to mind, but there are a number of other ways in which the game as is wouldn't function well in constructed with a 3x limit). My response to that is: fine, add new cards, update old ones, and make it work. But I'm not getting the impression from the OP that structural changes, or even much in the way of new/updated cards, is in the works. So that colors my earlier recommendations.
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