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Subject: New BGG Page for Second Edition rss

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Some Donkus
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Hey guys, just a reminder that Second Edition updates have moved here.

It's a little unusual, but the new Flash Duel has so much new stuff (5 new game modes, support for 1-5 players, 10 new characters) that it's really a whole new game.

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Christian T. Petersen
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David,

I don't see Reiner's name anywhere on here, but I assume (or rather hope) this is a license of En Garde.

Christian
FFG
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David Hoffman
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Wow. Zing.
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Kevin Heckman
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Knizia is thanked in the rulebook as the inspiration for the game. However there are enough differences in the ruleset that even if you removed the characters, the base game is not En Garde. Some people think it is too similar, although I don't.

The different play modes in 2e have zero counterpart in EG.
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Ian McCarthy
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Flightmaster wrote:
David,

I don't see Reiner's name anywhere on here, but I assume (or rather hope) this is a license of En Garde.

Christian
FFG


I think this kind of determination would have to be made by Dr. Knizia or his publishers. I believe Knizia has sold the core mechanics to this game several times to different publishers, with only small changes.

Now I really want to play X-Wing, so I can judge for myself how it compares to Wings of War and whether that's more incestuous than Flash Duel and En Garde.
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David Sirlin
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Christian, I don't know about the CEO of another game company posting literally immediately after the announcement of someone else's new game with what sounds like some accusation of wrongdoing. I will hope that was not your intent, but I don't know how else to interpret it. It's also off-base.

For reference, Dominion has 25 different abilities in the box. Flash Duel's 20 characters(!) have 60 different abilities. So more than double the number of effects in Dominion, or alternatively, more than Dominion plus an expansion. I only mention Dominion as a frame of reference to show just many abilities there really are. Anyway, these 20 characters with 60 abilities who have 210 different 1v1 matchups are hard to even compare to En Garde's 0 abilities, 0 characters, and 0 matchups. Flash Duel also has a cooperative dragon raid mode for 5 players, a 2v2 team battle, and a solo mode. Even if you were to set aside all those many things (and why would you?), there's still the base mechanics we could talk about. Flash Duel takes place on a different sized board with different discard rules, different timing rules, mechanics of "push" and "dashing block" not found in En Garde, a differently functioning dashing strike, and so on. After all this, one might ask what IS the same in the two games? Well, the idea that a card with a 5 on it can move a piece on a board 5 spaces or attack something 5 spaces away. So...yeah.

Luckily for us all, the idea that a card with a 5 on it can both move a piece 5 spaces and attack a distance of 5 is not something that anyone has a monopoly on. Fortunately, this simple, almost *twenty year* old mechanic is not something that only one game can ever use. Imagine if only one game could have lands tapping for mana, or if only one game could use deckbuilding mechanics.

Anyway, it's not really fair to derail a thread about a new game with such things. I think it's more interesting to talk about the substance of the design itself, so if anyone has questions or comments on that, I encourage it!

For example, there were quite some challenges in making 20 different characters all fair against each other and all express the personalities they are supposed to express, especially when they can be played in several entirely different game modes. There challenges in making the interactions more clear than they were in the earlier edition. There's also the attempt at advancing the art of cooperative games in general with the specific way the traitor mechanics of the dragon raid mode attempt to solve dominant-player-problem that almost all co-op games suffer from. Or there's the unexpected bonuses of the portable version of the game included for free, or that the game contains what were originally going to be base game + two expansions, all in one box for the same price as the previous base game. Or that there's even a way to play two simultaneous games of 1v1 with the components included, because we went the extra mile to try to include that perk. Or we could talk about whether the inclusion of video game-style achievements for the 1p mode is something people are interested in or not.

There's so much fertile ground about design, balance, and flavor that we could cover that I think that's a better direction for the thread to take.
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Steve Rogers
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Flightmaster wrote:
David,

I don't see Reiner's name anywhere on here, but I assume (or rather hope) this is a license of En Garde.

Christian
FFG


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Walter Greer
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Flightmaster wrote:
David,

I don't see Reiner's name anywhere on here, but I assume (or rather hope) this is a license of En Garde.

Christian
FFG


lol For a CEO of a major game publishing company you are very passive aggressive and bit petty. Wow. Is the big corporate guy trying to beat up on the small upstart? Maybe there is some jealousy? Who knows.
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Some Donkus
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I appreciate that you guys want to defend Sirlin, but let's let this lie, okay? I'm going to assume that everyone in this discussion had the best of intentions. Christian saw the picture and voiced a concern, to which Sirlin has responded.
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darksurtur
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I thought board game mechanics couldn't be patented anyways, so what does it matter? There is no IP to protect or lose if the game has new art, a new rulebook, and new terminology.
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Ian McCarthy
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darksurtur wrote:
I thought board game mechanics couldn't be patented anyways, so what does it matter? There is no IP to protect or lose if the game has new art, a new rulebook, and new terminology.


Right, until it gets tested in court, it's the law of gentlefolk and not burning bridges with potential business partners.
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Walter Greer
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ChampChunge wrote:
I appreciate that you guys want to defend Sirlin, but let's let this lie, okay? I'm going to assume that everyone in this discussion had the best of intentions. Christian saw the picture and voiced a concern, to which Sirlin has responded.


No worries. But when I see a snarky comment meant to disparage the individual's credibility in a public way rather than present a valid critque of his work on its own, I get a little annoyed. Especially coming from someone in a highly respected position in the gaming community.

Basically this whole question should have been handled in a private email, instead of in a public forum. Sirlin had the class to answer his critic. Peterson could have shown the same by contacting him directly.

Mr. Peterson by his actions has shown little in the way of "best intentions". His comment was a veiled attempt to call Sirlin a plagiarist. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Christian T. Petersen
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Sirlin wrote:
Christian, I don't know about the CEO of another game company posting literally immediately after the announcement of someone else's new game with what sounds like some accusation of wrongdoing. I will hope that was not your intent, but I don't know how else to interpret it. It's also off-base.

For reference, Dominion has 25 different abilities in the box. Flash Duel's 20 characters(!) have 60 different abilities. So more than double the number of effects in Dominion, or alternatively, more than Dominion plus an expansion. I only mention Dominion as a frame of reference to show just many abilities there really are. Anyway, these 20 characters with 60 abilities who have 210 different 1v1 matchups are hard to even compare to En Garde's 0 abilities, 0 characters, and 0 matchups. Flash Duel also has a cooperative dragon raid mode for 5 players, a 2v2 team battle, and a solo mode. Even if you were to set aside all those many things (and why would you?), there's still the base mechanics we could talk about. Flash Duel takes place on a different sized board with different discard rules, different timing rules, mechanics of "push" and "dashing block" not found in En Garde, a differently functioning dashing strike, and so on. After all this, one might ask what IS the same in the two games? Well, the idea that a card with a 5 on it can move a piece on a board 5 spaces or attack something 5 spaces away. So...yeah.

Luckily for us all, the idea that a card with a 5 on it can both move a piece 5 spaces and attack a distance of 5 is not something that anyone has a monopoly on. Fortunately, this simple, almost *twenty year* old mechanic is not something that only one game can ever use. Imagine if only one game could have lands tapping for mana, or if only one game could use deckbuilding mechanics.

Anyway, it's not really fair to derail a thread about a new game with such things. I think it's more interesting to talk about the substance of the design itself, so if anyone has questions or comments on that, I encourage it!

For example, there were quite some challenges in making 20 different characters all fair against each other and all express the personalities they are supposed to express, especially when they can be played in several entirely different game modes. There challenges in making the interactions more clear than they were in the earlier edition. There's also the attempt at advancing the art of cooperative games in general with the specific way the traitor mechanics of the dragon raid mode attempt to solve dominant-player-problem that almost all co-op games suffer from. Or there's the unexpected bonuses of the portable version of the game included for free, or that the game contains what were originally going to be base game + two expansions, all in one box for the same price as the previous base game. Or that there's even a way to play two simultaneous games of 1v1 with the components included, because we went the extra mile to try to include that perk. Or we could talk about whether the inclusion of video game-style achievements for the 1p mode is something people are interested in or not.

There's so much fertile ground about design, balance, and flavor that we could cover that I think that's a better direction for the thread to take.


David,

I strongly suggest that you discuss this with Reiner, I just had an exchange with him.

cP
FFG

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M. S.
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Hello kettle, meet pot... anyone else find this thread a bit ironic?
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Brian Gee
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Flash Duel » Forums » News
Re: New BGG Page for Second Edition
Flightmaster wrote:


David,

I strongly suggest that you discuss this with Reiner, I just had an exchange with him.

cP
FFG



Wow. At first I thought this was just some drive-by snarky comment, but it seems it's a full on assault. Where were all these amazing designer contacting skills when you were licensing and making changes to Merchant of Venus without talking to Richard Hamblen? Shouldn't you clean up the mess in your own backyard before inventing this one? Why have you not been so forward in posting publicly about that legal issue? Does your team of lawyers have a muzzle on you?

Having played both Flash Duel and En Garde, I agree fully with David Sirlin's comments that Flash Duel takes no more than a mechanic from En Garde, and adds a whole ton of stuff to that mechanic. To me, Flash Duel's use of the "fighting with number cards on a 2-d plane" mechanic is no different than Acension's use of Dominion's "deckbuilding" mechanic. Same mechanic, different game. I don't believe there is any substance to your complaint about Flash Duel, but even if there is, I personally feel it is in poor taste for you to make a public stink about another publisher's legal issues until the public knows the whole story about what happened with Merchant of Venus.
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Kevin Heckman
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downstream wrote:
I personally feel it is in poor taste for you to make a public stink about another publisher's legal issues until the public knows the whole story about what happened with Merchant of Venus.


I don't want to see a public stink between publishers even if one or both of them has zero issues. Like any other users, they should take it PM or STFU.
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M. S.
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dysjunct wrote:
downstream wrote:
I personally feel it is in poor taste for you to make a public stink about another publisher's legal issues until the public knows the whole story about what happened with Merchant of Venus.


I don't want to see a public stink between publishers even if one or both of them has zero issues. Like any other users, they should take it PM or STFU.


I wouldn't even take it to PM. Question is, why does FFG care? If they intended to produce a similar game and went through the trouble of acquiring the rights to retheme En Garde, or whatever the legal sticky point is... then why not formally contact Sirlin Games; ie a letter or phone call.
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Dan Gillette
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FFG were probably getting ready to announce their own version of En Guarde set in Terinoth.
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Flightmaster wrote:
David,

I don't see Reiner's name anywhere on here, but I assume (or rather hope) this is a license of En Garde.

Christian
FFG

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Christian T. Petersen
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KenToad wrote:
[q="Flightmaster"]

Now I really want to play X-Wing, so I can judge for myself how it compares to Wings of War and whether that's more incestuous than Flash Duel and En Garde.


Ken,

First, I recommend you check out Wreckage, a game that FFG published before WoW was released, and something we developed for several years in the late 90's. Further, I would very much invite you to play X-Wing when released, as I find the notion of "incest" vis-a-vis WoW to be baseless. The two games share a genre (dog-fighting miniatures), to which I hope you agree there is no proprietary claim. Similarly, we do not claim "Eclipse" is an infringement of our "Twilight Imperium" on the basis that the two share a common concept and theme (great game, Eclipse, BTW, and a great addition to the genre).

I, and FFG, hold designers and their proprietary ideas in the highest regard, and we have decades long relationships with dozens of the finest designers in the world. I think they're important, and I will speak to defend them.

On the matter of this game, I consider Reiner a friend, and I personally think there's an issue here, so I will speak out when he cannot (due to the obvious bias). I think you'll agree these are not merely two games sharing the "fencing genre".

In this case, it is my opinion that both the publisher of En Garde (Gryphon) and Reiner is injured. I think it is in interest of the gaming public to understand that, even if some may disagree with me.

If I create special powers for Monopoly tokens, I would argue that I've made an expansion (or a variant) to an existing product, not that I made a new game.

From the response here, I think it is clear a license was not taken on En Garde. I would submit that this was, and remains, the correct thing to do. There is no reason why this shouldn't be a win-win for the parties, and it is not too late.

Disclaimer: I have no stake in En Garde, Gryphon, or Reiner Knizia's financial upsides or downsides. I express this as a personal opinion.

cP
FFG


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Jason Obermeyer
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Flightmaster wrote:
KenToad wrote:
[q="Flightmaster"]

Now I really want to play X-Wing, so I can judge for myself how it compares to Wings of War and whether that's more incestuous than Flash Duel and En Garde.


Ken,

First, I recommend you check out Wreckage, a game that FFG published before WoW was released, and something we developed for several years in the late 90's. Further, I would very much invite you to play X-Wing when released, as I find the notion of "incest" vis-a-vis WoW to be baseless. The two games share a genre (dog-fighting miniatures), to which I hope you agree there is no proprietary claim. Similarly, we do not claim "Eclipse" is an infringement of our "Twilight Imperium" on the basis that the two share a common concept and theme (great game, Eclipse, BTW, and a great addition to the genre).

I, and FFG, hold designers and their proprietary ideas in the highest regard, and we have decades long relationships with dozens of the finest designers in the world. I think they're important, and I will speak to defend them.

On the matter of this game, I consider Reiner a friend, and I personally think there's an issue here, so I will speak out when he cannot (due to the obvious bias). I think you'll agree these are not merely two games sharing the "fencing genre".

In this case, it is my opinion that both the publisher of En Garde (Gryphon) and Reiner is injured. I think it is in interest of the gaming public to understand that, even if some may disagree with me.

If I create special powers for Monopoly tokens, I would argue that I've made an expansion (or a variant) to an existing product, not that I made a new game.

From the response here, I think it is clear a license was not taken on En Garde. I would submit that this was, and remains, the correct thing to do. There is no reason why this shouldn't be a win-win for the parties, and it is not too late.

Disclaimer: I have no stake in En Garde, Gryphon, or Reiner Knizia's financial upsides or downsides. I express this as a personal opinion.

cP
FFG




Well said, and BTW, i agree with you 100%
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Dan Gillette
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Flightmaster wrote:
KenToad wrote:
[q="Flightmaster"]

Now I really want to play X-Wing, so I can judge for myself how it compares to Wings of War and whether that's more incestuous than Flash Duel and En Garde.


Ken,

First, I recommend you check out Wreckage, a game that FFG published before WoW was released, and something we developed for several years in the late 90's. Further, I would very much invite you to play X-Wing when released, as I find the notion of "incest" vis-a-vis WoW to be baseless. The two games share a genre (dog-fighting miniatures), to which I hope you agree there is no proprietary claim. Similarly, we do not claim "Eclipse" is an infringement of our "Twilight Imperium" on the basis that the two share a common concept and theme (great game, Eclipse, BTW, and a great addition to the genre).

I, and FFG, hold designers and their proprietary ideas in the highest regard, and we have decades long relationships with dozens of the finest designers in the world. I think they're important, and I will speak to defend them.

On the matter of this game, I consider Reiner a friend, and I personally think there's an issue here, so I will speak out when he cannot (due to the obvious bias). I think you'll agree these are not merely two games sharing the "fencing genre".

In this case, it is my opinion that both the publisher of En Garde (Gryphon) and Reiner is injured. I think it is in interest of the gaming public to understand that, even if some may disagree with me.

If I create special powers for Monopoly tokens, I would argue that I've made an expansion (or a variant) to an existing product, not that I made a new game.

From the response here, I think it is clear a license was not taken on En Garde. I would submit that this was, and remains, the correct thing to do. There is no reason why this shouldn't be a win-win for the parties, and it is not too late.

Disclaimer: I have no stake in En Garde, Gryphon, or Reiner Knizia's financial upsides or downsides. I express this as a personal opinion.

cP
FFG




This is a much more reasoned response (not saying I agree though). Honestly, your first post was a bit crass.

One question though, and I mean this in an entirely serious and nonjudgmental way. Given the bold [emphasis mine] passage above, why didn't FFG contact Hamblin when you decided to remake Merchants of Venus? It seems that this would have been the prudent thing to do even if there was no reason to believe that another company was working on the same game.
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Flightmaster wrote:
In this case, it is my opinion that both the publisher of En Garde (Gryphon) and Reiner is injured. I think it is in interest of the gaming public to understand that, even if some may disagree with me.


Then why not directly address Sirlin's points:

Sirlin wrote:
Anyway, these 20 characters with 60 abilities who have 210 different 1v1 matchups are hard to even compare to En Garde's 0 abilities, 0 characters, and 0 matchups. Flash Duel also has a cooperative dragon raid mode for 5 players, a 2v2 team battle, and a solo mode. Even if you were to set aside all those many things (and why would you?), there's still the base mechanics we could talk about. Flash Duel takes place on a different sized board with different discard rules, different timing rules, mechanics of "push" and "dashing block" not found in En Garde, a differently functioning dashing strike, and so on. After all this, one might ask what IS the same in the two games? Well, the idea that a card with a 5 on it can move a piece on a board 5 spaces or attack something 5 spaces away. So...yeah.


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This looks excellent, David. Another homerun in the making, in terms of game quality.
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The Fallen wrote:
Flightmaster wrote:
KenToad wrote:
[q="Flightmaster"]

Now I really want to play X-Wing, so I can judge for myself how it compares to Wings of War and whether that's more incestuous than Flash Duel and En Garde.


Ken,

First, I recommend you check out Wreckage, a game that FFG published before WoW was released, and something we developed for several years in the late 90's. Further, I would very much invite you to play X-Wing when released, as I find the notion of "incest" vis-a-vis WoW to be baseless. The two games share a genre (dog-fighting miniatures), to which I hope you agree there is no proprietary claim. Similarly, we do not claim "Eclipse" is an infringement of our "Twilight Imperium" on the basis that the two share a common concept and theme (great game, Eclipse, BTW, and a great addition to the genre).

I, and FFG, hold designers and their proprietary ideas in the highest regard, and we have decades long relationships with dozens of the finest designers in the world. I think they're important, and I will speak to defend them.

On the matter of this game, I consider Reiner a friend, and I personally think there's an issue here, so I will speak out when he cannot (due to the obvious bias). I think you'll agree these are not merely two games sharing the "fencing genre".

In this case, it is my opinion that both the publisher of En Garde (Gryphon) and Reiner is injured. I think it is in interest of the gaming public to understand that, even if some may disagree with me.

If I create special powers for Monopoly tokens, I would argue that I've made an expansion (or a variant) to an existing product, not that I made a new game.

From the response here, I think it is clear a license was not taken on En Garde. I would submit that this was, and remains, the correct thing to do. There is no reason why this shouldn't be a win-win for the parties, and it is not too late.

Disclaimer: I have no stake in En Garde, Gryphon, or Reiner Knizia's financial upsides or downsides. I express this as a personal opinion.

cP
FFG




This is a much more reasoned response (not saying I agree though). Honestly, your first post was a bit crass.

One question though, and I mean this in an entirely serious and nonjudgmental way. Given the bold [emphasis mine] passage above, why didn't FFG contact Hamblin when you decided to remake Merchants of Venus? It seems that this would have been the prudent thing to do even if there was no reason to believe that another company was working on the same game.


Dude, if you contacted who you thought had the rights, and they said they did indeed have the rights, why would you contact the original designer of the game? If you want to throw out comparisons, why not throw out the Battles of Westeros game? It is NOT that much like battlelore, but they went out and licensed the mechanics, and even put the name on the box (with Richard Borgs name).
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