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Subject: Secrecy question regarding quorum... rss

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Michael
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Are you allowed to reveal quorum cards that you know the president has? For example, due to changing title, Tory's OPG, or Ellen Tigh's OPG. In one of my group's games, Ellen used her OPG to become president at the start of New Caprica. A few turns later, it became obvious that president Baltar was a cylon and Ellen warned everybody that Baltar had an arrest order.

Group debated whether this was breaking secrecy. I wasn't really sure.
 
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Joseph Cochran
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I don't think it is. I think that the same rule of thumb exists for Quorum as exist for Skill cards: you cannot enumerate what is in the hand, but if a specific card is part of the conversation, you can make the claim to have or not have it (or in this case, had or not have had it).
 
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Daniel Loke
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I don't think it breaks secrecy. No one knows if Ellen is lying or not.

In general, though, I would say they follow the same rules as Skill Card secrecy. From the Official FAQ:
Quote:
If a player is hoping that another player has a specific Skill Card ability, he may ask other players.
For example, if a player is thinking of using the “FTL Control” location during his Action step, he may ask if any players have a “Strategic Planning” Skill Card.
Players may admit to having a requested card, but are not required to.
This information should not be abused (for example, a player should not just list off all card abilities in his hand).

 
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Mindy G
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So then I guess the question would be, did someone ask Ellen or did she just choose to blurt it out?
 
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ackmondual
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pkmnrckt wrote:
Are you allowed to reveal quorum cards that you know the president has? For example, due to changing title, Tory's OPG, or Ellen Tigh's OPG. In one of my group's games, Ellen used her OPG to become president at the start of New Caprica. A few turns later, it became obvious that president Baltar was a cylon and Ellen warned everybody that Baltar had an arrest order.

Group debated whether this was breaking secrecy. I wasn't really sure.
It's sort of a gray area, but unless your group has more strict restrictions on secrecy rules, I'd say it's OK.

I hate to kickstart the secrecy "conga discussion line", but it does appear to be in the lines of asking if someone has a specific card, NOT related to skill checks (so asking if someone had an Iron Will would probably be too much in some of my groups).
 
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Colin Sham
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oriecat wrote:
So then I guess the question would be, did someone ask Ellen or did she just choose to blurt it out?


Even if someone asked the question ("Does Baltar have an arrest order?"), the fact that Ellen responded and backed her assertion with the fact that she was previously the president puts this squarely outside the skills rule coverage.

Baltar could state whether or not he has an arrest order when asked. That seems like a straightforward application of the Skill Card secrecy spirit.

However, since one can reveal whatever they want about a loyalty card check (ex. Baltar's OPG / Crisis), I don't see how Ellen broke any secrecy rule.
 
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Evan
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Ridel wrote:
However, since one can reveal whatever they want about a loyalty card check (ex. Baltar's OPG / Crisis), I don't see how Ellen broke any secrecy rule.


You can't, though; you can only reveal whether they're human or cylon.

I do agree that the skill secrecy comparison is inapt, but as I see it, the biggest reason for any given secrecy rule is to keep it from being too easy to catch someone in a lie (or, secondarily, too dependent on one's knowledge of what cards exist), either about what they put into a skill check, what loyalty card they just saw, or what they just scouted.

I was about to claim that this implies that talking about the cards one was holding as President is not a big deal, but, upon reflection, it does seem like it would be a violation of secrecy if, for example, a situation were to arise in which Ellen says "Baltar's been sitting on an ABF all this time, he's a Cylon"
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Daniel Loke
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I think every group needs to carve out their own secrecy rules. Some groups are more liberal with what they say, and others aren't. If it works for your group, then it doesn't matter what the official rules state. In fact, I believe that it recommends to use the Secrecy Clarifications only if there are disagreements on how lenient to be.

Once your group establishes a precedent with that quorum card, then that's how you should play. I wouldn't worry too much about it.
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Robert Stewart
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kobold47 wrote:
I was about to claim that this implies that talking about the cards one was holding as President is not a big deal, but, upon reflection, it does seem like it would be a violation of secrecy if, for example, a situation were to arise in which Ellen says "Baltar's been sitting on an ABF all this time, he's a Cylon"


I think it's probably okay to say "the Quorum hand had some useful cards for this situation when I handed it over" but not to list off all the cards involved (individual play-groups may have different opinions.

How much secrecy is appropriate depends on the playstyle of the individual group - if everyone co-operates like a well-oiled machine, with Cylons revealing at the first opportunity rather than trying to sow distrust and paranoia, and nobody feels that the humans are winning too often, then lax secrecy rules are acceptable. If, on the other hand, no-one wants to be a Cylon because they have no way to sabotage the fleet undetected, and the human machine wins too often, then stricter secrecy rules are probably a good idea.

On the third hand, if people are having more fun playing characters rather than optimising moves, and accusations of being a Cylon are as likely to be levelled at the player who rolls a 1 on a Launch Scout as at the only pilot to play cards into the check that got spiked with a red 5, then secrecy rules are a moot point...

tl;dr: If your playgroup's happy with your current consensus, then those are the right secrecy rules for your group.
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Pieter
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Be that as it may, questions regarding secrecy cannot be discussed during a game as there are two teams with different agenda's. They have to be settled beforehand. If they are not, the rulebook takes precedence. And the rulebook says that you cannot reveal what you know about the Quorum hand. The rulebook allows the President to answer questions about holding a specific card. It does not allow you to use that as an excuse to rattle off all cards. That brings us in a bit of a gray area, that hopefully a play group manages to resolve in an acceptable way. In my groups, it is usually interpreted as "you can ask about a card if you would like the President to play it."
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ackmondual
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Well, I would say in that case for that game then, Ellen should've just mentioned that Baltar is a cylon by virtue of the Qcard hand and strictly that. It'll need to be a group with more lax rules to state, of which some of my groups tend to be in the end
 
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Robert Stewart
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ackmondual wrote:
Well, I would say in that case for that game then, Ellen should've just mentioned that Baltar is a cylon by virtue of the Qcard hand and strictly that. It'll need to be a group with more lax rules to state, of which some of my groups tend to be in the end


The OP was that people believed President Baltar to be a Cylon, and Ellen warned that the Q-hand had Arrest Order.

A more suitably vague warning would have been that the Q-hand had some cards you wouldn't want in a Cylon's hands...
 
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Evan
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Flyboy Connor wrote:
And the rulebook says that you cannot reveal what you know about the Quorum hand.


Where does it say that? I assumed that all this speculation and analogizing to skill cards was precisely because it didn't mention Quorum cards. If I just missed where it says that, then okay cool, she can't reveal anything about them, problem solved. If not, however, then a strict textualist "The Rulebook Takes Precedence Over All" interpretation suggests just the opposite, that the sidebar on p. 20 provides an exhaustive list of the things we can't talk about, and anything else is fair game. (Though personally I find that approach a little too literal.)
 
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Robert Stewart
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Battlestar Galactica » Forums » Rules
Re: Secrecy question regarding quorum...
kobold47 wrote:
Flyboy Connor wrote:
And the rulebook says that you cannot reveal what you know about the Quorum hand.


Where does it say that? I assumed that all this speculation and analogizing to skill cards was precisely because it didn't mention Quorum cards. If I just missed where it says that, then okay cool, she can't reveal anything about them, problem solved. If not, however, then a strict textualist "The Rulebook Takes Precedence Over All" interpretation suggests just the opposite, that the sidebar on p. 20 provides an exhaustive list of the things we can't talk about, and anything else is fair game. (Though personally I find that approach a little too literal.)


p12 says "These cards are kept secret" which either means you can't talk about them at all, or that they fall under the secrecy rules...
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