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Subject: Building a seventh skill card deck rss

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David Turczi
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I had an epiphany today, and this came out of it.

A seventh deck, called Faith. Both Cylons and humans can both use their text, noone has it in their skill set (except maybe an Elosha I'm working on), and by default it is negative in every skill check. The "by default" is the most important thing here.

Everyone starts the game with 1 extra Faith skill card (beside the normal 3)

Everyone (humans, cylons, brigged people, people in space, etc) gain the following ability:
Quote:
Movement: Draw 1 Faith skill card.


The skill deck itself is designed with Treachery in play, so I don't recommend it for Base or Base+Exodus games.

There are total of 35 cards in this deck, to make it the same as any other deck in a Base+Pegasus+Exodus+Opera House game.


Higher Power - Consequence icon - Skill Check Ability: If this skill check is not reckless, all Faith cards in this skill check count as positive strength. Movement or Action: Draw 2 Treachery cards.
Value: 1-2 (8,6)

Guide them to Their Destiny: Play before a Skill Check, to examine the top two cards of the Destiny Deck.
Value: 1-3 (1,1,1)

Touch Their Souls - Movement or Action: Choose any other player. That player discards 2 skill cards. Then that player draws 2 Skill Cards from any color of your choice. Treachery discarded in this way does not add to the Destiny deck. You may then draw another Faith card.
Value: 1-2 (1,1)

(the "don't put it into Destiny" clause is for the often used "Discarded Treachery is shuffled into Destiny" rule. If you don't have that rule, ignore that clause)

Despite Their Differences - Movement or Action: Choose a Human player and a Cylon player. Both players draw 2 Skill Cards (they may be from outside the player's skill set). You may then draw another Faith card. You may not play this card if there are no Cylons in play.
Value: 3-5 (1,1,1)

Godsent - Movement or Action: Move up to 3 raiders in one space sector to an adjacent space sector.
Value: 3-5 (4,2,1)

Blind Faith - Consequence icon - Skill Check Ability: All faith cards in this skill check count as positive strength. If it fails by 4 or more, skip the Prepare for Jump step, if it passes by 4 or more, skip the Cylon Activation step this turn.
Value: 4-5 (1,1)

Prayer heard - Consequence icon - Skill Check Ability: Each player may draw 1 Faith skill card.
Value: 0 (3)

Leap of Faith - Action: Decrease the Jump preparation track by 2 to increase any one resource by 1.
Value: 6 (1)

So, what do you think? Is it pro-cylon? is it pro-human? would you ever want to draw from these? would you ever use any of these?
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Cody Gardner
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I like it although I worry that leap of faith could end a game right as things are getting exciting, although there is only one of them......

Either way you might need new crisis cards to bring these into games.....
Oh wait I see the movement thing now.

P.S. I almost put my baltar banner up before I posted!
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Matt Vollick
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I really like these cards. They look thought out and even if Leap of Faith could kill the humans at the end of the game if a Cylon got it, it is a very rare card.

I like how this deck would interact between Cylons and Humans. The Cylon can try to spike with Faith but if Higher Power shows up they are helping the humans pass the check.

I also like the card that allows the humans or cylons to move 3 raiders to an adjacent spot. The more space combat shenangians.

The only minor criticism would be with Despite Our Differences. I don't see it being used very often for its action. 2 cards for 2 cards isn't appealing to me as a human. As a Cylon I would be giving up on a 4 or 5 card that I could spike with.
 
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David Turczi
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Vollick1979 wrote:
The only minor criticism would be with Despite Our Differences. I don't see it being used very often for its action. 2 cards for 2 cards isn't appealing to me as a human. As a Cylon I would be giving up on a 4 or 5 card that I could spike with.


How about "I draw 2, you draw 1". Is that better?

Is the movement thing enough to bring the cards in, should it be "draw 2 faith", or should I try to introduce more mechanisms to introduce the cards?

EDIT: OOoo I got it! Everyone starts with 1 Faith (in addition to the default 3). Is that good?
 
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ackmondual
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I was thinking that pink could be a cuteness deck. Cally could alternaitvely draw 2of them.. Havent worked out any details beyond that thouy
 
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David Turczi
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Not Pink... It's Magenta

And somehow I don't think cuteness fits with BSG's theme better than Faith does...
 
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Atomic Robo
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Show me the five crisis cards, the super crisis, and the two quorum cards that interact with the Faith deck and I'll be ready to comment on it.
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David Turczi
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LL6869 wrote:
Show me the five crisis cards, the super crisis, and the two quorum cards that interact with the Faith deck and I'll be ready to comment on it.


I don't feel the need, sorry.
THe fact that it can help or hinder in every skill check is a must, so no point in making it positive ever. And it's not really good to make it either a fail or a pass to give out more cards...
But if you have any ideas for either, feel free to share...
 
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Atomic Robo
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It doesn't feel as though it's an integrated part of the game. It seems as though it's an extra... thingy that's been added on. Without crisis cards, Super Crisis cards, quorum cards and such to interact with and bring the deck to the forefront, it runs the risk of being what it looks to become now; the standard Cylon draw. (Yes please, give me a Treachery and a Faith... muahahahaha! My cards are always negative! And d...jerkish!)

Faith should be able to have a super positive effect for the humans, as it was what kept them going. Crisis cards for a day of remembrance (Pass gain morale, Fail everyone discards skill cards), a crisis of faith, a holy day, etc. etc. Quorum cards could either appoint an official religious leader, or allow the building of an official temple, give another player a title card that allows them to discard skill cards to make Faith positive in a check, etc. etc.

How about a Super Crisis that lets the Cylons select a prophet? It could be either an OR crisis or a pass/fail crisis. On one hand Faith becomes permanently negative (ignoring card effects that might make it positive) and the human target draws a Faith card each turn. On the other Faith becomes permanently positive.

Just some ideas. You can't design these things in a vaccuum, it feels too tacked on.
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David Turczi
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My obsessive idea making brain is immediately coming up with
- a religious leader title
- 6 religious leader chooses crisises
- 3 quorum cards to deal with it
but I'm not convinced I need them. Anyone else want to cast their votes?

And besides, Cylons can only dependably spike with Faith, if the humans are ignoring it. All it takes is one little Higher Power to make all the cylons' spike positive...
 
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Jan Itor
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Count me in
 
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David Turczi
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Valen200 wrote:
Count me in

Thanks for the enthusiasm, but this is not (yet) the PBF signup thread


As for ABCoLD's ideas...
Poll
I should add to this Faith idea...
Crisises
New Title Card, with chooses crisises
Quorum Cards
Supercrisis
Something else
Don't add anything!
      17 answers
Poll created by TDaver
 
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Robert Stewart
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My immediate thought is that the card values seem to be a little off.

Aside from Treachery (26 cards, 6 effects, two effects of each value from 1-3, split 8/4, 5/3 and 4/2) all the skill decks have the same skeleton:

0 - skill check ability, Exodus (3)
1-2 - base game (8,6)
1-2 - Pegasus (1,1)
3-5 - base game (4,2,1)
3-5 - Pegasus (1,1,1)
6 - Exodus (1)

Totals of each value:

0 - 3
1 - 9
2 - 7
3 - 5
4 - 3
5 - 2
6 - 1

The proposed Faith deck breaks down as:

0 - 3
1 - 13
2 - 7
3 - 3
4 - 6
5 - 2
6 - 1

That's a total of 35 (5 more than the other decks), with a surplus of 4's, a shortage of 3's, rather more 1's, and the oddity of 3's being the "low" effect rather than the "high" effect.

I'd suggest either tweaking the numbers to match the other decks (which would mean ditching one of the effects) or changing things so that the distribution of values is even less like existing decks...

...

Ah, I missed the Opera House reference - I can't find the Opera House expansion fully described anywhere, but I see the new skill cards from it take the 1-3/4-5 approach and add one of each, making it {3/10/8/6/4/3/1} to your {3/13/7/3/6/2/1}, difference: {0/+3/-1/-3/+2/-1/0}

If it were up to me, I'd associate the individual cards with specific slots in the existing skeleton, and use that to determine card frequencies...
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David Turczi
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Ah, thank you. I so didn't have the will to do this much counting, but now that you've done it, I can use it!

The main reason for so many 1s is that I didn't want too many high valued Higher Powers.

So let's see the slots:
1-2 basegame => That's Higher Power, obviously.
3-4-5 basegame => That'll be Despite our Differences
1-2 pegasus => Touch their Souls
3-4-5 pegasus => Godsent
1-2-3 opera house => Guide them to their Destiny
4-5 opera house => I guess I'll just add to more Godsent, I like that card

The 0 and 6 are obvious.

So the new setup is:
Higher power 1 (8) 2 (6)
Despite our Differences 3 (4) 4 (2) 5 (1)
Touch Their Souls 1 (1) 2 (1)
Godsent 3 (1) 4 (2) 5 (2)
Guide them to Their Destiny 1 (1) 2 (1) 3 (1)
Prayer Heard 0 (3)
Leap of Faith 6 (1)

I'll edit the first post.
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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I don't think it needs titles or crises, but maybe some new characters that have faith draw or abilities related to faith (Elosha, alternate Roslin/Baltar/Six)

Adjusting the Crossroads cards to make some use of Faith (especially some less interesting ones like Opera House) might be good.

As for Leap of Faith, I would add that it can't reduce the lowest resource. Even using it on the second lowest could be devastating.
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Mark L
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Leap of Faith seems extremely pro-Cylon to me... the humans can't safely let any resource drop to 2, which is extremely limiting. It can be very powerful for the humans but in far more situational circumstances. Leap of Faith can, and should, just be held all game. It's even worse than Political Prowess for me.

Other than that, I think the cards are pretty neat. Although it might cause At Any Cost/Jury Rigged and the like to see less play, which is sad for me since I like those cards...

On second look, I'd also like to add that I don't like how Touch Their Souls should never be played by a human on a Cylon... it seems a bit off to me. But that's a very minor criticism, I'm fine with it.
 
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David Turczi
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Leap of Faith has been amended to make it less of a game stopper.

I've added the missing 8th skill card (thanks to my little brother's hopefully great idea), and rearranged the card value distributions accordingly (but kept the slots).

 
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Mark L
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Nice changes to the skill value distributions and Leap of Faith.

I... don't like Will of God? The idea that Faith is negative but could be positive is cool, but adding another card that is still negative even when Faith is positive just seems a little over the top. I don't really like the interrupt, either... seems to cycle through the Faith deck a little too quickly, and is almost always positive, since the chance of drawing no Higher Power is very slim and then you can just dump all your new Faith cards into the check.
 
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TDaver wrote:
Higher Power - Consequence icon - Skill Check Ability: If this skill check is not reckless, Faith counts as positive.
Value: 1 (7), 2 (5), 3 (1)

At first this didn't hit me... I read 'Faith is always positive, unless the check is Reckless'. But, Faith is only positive if this card is in the skill check as well! It's a very interesting twist - I like.

Quote:
Guide them to Their Destiny - Human: Play before a skill check, to immediately reveal the top 2 cards of Destiny. Cylon Movement or Action: Make a human player draw 1 Treachery.
Value: 1 (3), 2 (1), 3 (1)

As a Cylon, I can see an instance when I wish I could use the Human action of this card. I'd make both sides reveal Destiny and remove the Treachery component. I also think the values of these cards are low. This is one of the best actions on a card in the set. The only problem I foresee with this one is that it doesn't play nicely with Guts and Initiative. What happens if both are added as interrupts (namely, if Guide them to Their Destiny is added first)?

Quote:
Touch their souls - Action: Target another player to make him draw two treachery cards or discard up to three treachery cards (don't put it into Destiny) to draw the same amount of skill cards instead of them (from within his skillset)
[i]Value: 1 (3), 2 (1), 3 (1)

Having played a number of games with the 'Treachery goes to the Destiny Deck', there is part of this that gives me a huge sigh of relief. But, exchanging 3 almost-always negative cards for 3 cards of my choice is too good. How about:

Movement: Choose any other player. That player discards 2 skill cards. Then that player draws 2 Skill Cards from a skill set of your choice. Treachery discarded in this way does not add to the Destiny deck.

(I also made the wording consistent with current cards - see Executive Order and Samuel T. Anders)

This makes the card the same for both sides (I love pure duality in a card), and doesn't make it as super powerful for the humans. I also changed it to a Movement action, as cycling cards isn't a fantastic Action.

Quote:
Despite our differences - Movement or Action: Select a player from the other side. Both of you may draw up to 2 skill cards, it may come from outside of both of your skill sets. You may not play this card if there are no cylons in play.
Value: 4 (3), 5 (1)


What about Cylon Leaders? I really dislike the 'other side' wording, so I'd suggest this:

Movement or Action: Choose a Human player and a Cylon player. Each player draws 2 Skill Cards (they may be from outside the player's skill set). You may not play this card if there are no Cylons in play.

This means that an infiltrating Cylon Leader is considered a Human (per the rules).

Quote:
Godsent - Movement or Action: Target a space sector. Move up to 3 raiders in that space sector to a neighboring one.
Value: 4 (3), 5 (1)


Replace 'neighboring one' with 'adjacent space sector' and I think you have a winner.

EDIT: Here's the wording I would use:

Movement or Action: Move up to 3 raiders in one space sector to an adjacent space sector.

Quote:
Prayer Heard - Consequence icon - Skill Check Ability: Everyone must draw one Faith skill card.
Value: 0 (3)


The wording I think you're looking for is: "Each player may draw 1 Faith skill card." (see Support the People)

Quote:
Leap of Faith - Action: Decrease the Jump preparation track by 2 to increase any one resource by 1 or Increase the Jump Preparation track by 1 to decrease any resource by 2. You may not choose the first option if the Jump Preparation track is on the "start" place.
Value: 6 (1)


I think the second part of this is just too much. In the hands of a Cylon, this is an easy game winner. The humans now have to keep all resources at 3 or higher (which is a Herculean task for Fuel in most games). I don't think this card needs the second clause. The first clause can be hurtful enough when played well by the Cylons - there's usually a resource they aren't trying to target that won't matter if it's increased by 1. I'd change it to:

Action: Decrease the Jump Preparation track by 2 to increase any one resource by 1.

My only question with this is how it interacts with a Jump Preparation track that is at START or Red-1. It turns into a free resource for the humans at that point. (Which, thinking about it, might not be that bad).


Final thoughts: I think these are great. I personally hate Magenta (I'm a theatrical lighting designer - magenta doesn't exist in the world of light in any pure form... it's a fake color!). I'd push for the Faith deck being White. (I also like the post below me who suggested Gray. Either of these are better than magenta!)

Thoughts on drawing Faith cards:
-You could tie it in with Trauma - each time a character gains or loses a Trauma, draw a Faith card.
-You could allow character to draw a Faith card instead of one of their standard Skill Cards.
-To take that one step further, Faith could be a Wild Card draw that can be drawn any time any other Skill Card color would be drawn.

Lastly, I'm in for a game moderated using these cards. Once my current games finish, I'd start one with these (but that could be a couple of months at the rate I mod).
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Atomic Robo
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I'm also not a huge fan of Will of God.

What about a 6 power card that dealt with Trauma? It's always bugged me that the skill decks don't do much with Trauma. Possible effects include: Target a character, that character discards two trauma. Or discard this card immediately after a player draws a trauma token, they discard that trauma token and draw another. (To help deal with disasters)
 
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Atomic Robo
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Battlestar Galactica: Exodus Expansion » Forums » Variants
Re: Building a seventh skill card deck
Also, the guy above me is smart. I was holding off on critical review of the cards until I saw some crisis cards and such, but he's pretty much spot on.

Also, what about a nice Grey for Faith? (One of the points of the series is that even matters of faith are rarely black or white.)
 
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Mark L
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LL6869 wrote:
Also, the guy above me is smart. I was holding off on critical review of the cards until I saw some crisis cards and such, but he's pretty much spot on.


I think the guy below me is pretty smart, too.
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Mooseared Ferenczy
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So skimming this thread and most of the posts, Leap of Faith is to powerful. A cylon can use that early on to reduce fuel by two and completely screw over humanity. Bonus if it a cylon admiral.
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Jan Itor
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I like the idea of crisis/q cards/title/new elosha because I am in favor of testing 1 thing but trying to integrate that thing into the game so that it does not feel tacked on.


like crisis cards that allow you to draw faith on a pass (and treachery on a loss) or where faith is positve (even piloting/military is sometimes positive.)

A q card that is a discardable title that interacts with it.


 
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David Turczi
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Okay, so Will of God is not a winner as I hoped Let's reduce it to a "draw 1 faith"... But then this card is completely useless for cylons, so I added the "always negative" bit. If you think that is stupid, help me make it dual.

As for why cylons can't use Guide Them To Their Destiny's interrupt?
Because of the "Cylons don't play interrupts for skill checks" rule of thumb. Not even treachery messed with that, I sure as hell won't.
Since cylons can't use this interrupt, I had to make something up, thus there is the Treachery bit.
EDIT: And why it is low? Because it was originally a 4-5 Politics card (see V7, V8, V12, V14, V15) and I got the feedback that noone would waste a 4-5 card for seeing destiny.

As for Guts & Initiative + GttD? you get to see them, then with G&I you can hold them back until next skill check

I love Ripshawd's ideas on Touch their Souls and Despite their Differences (see, I even renamed it), I'll go with those.
Also, thanks for the "correct wordings", I'll obviously use those too.

As for Leap of Faith: please reread the current version, and comment now.

Also, here is a Q-card:
Quote:
Assign Religious Leader: Action: Draw 2 Faith cards. Target another player, give this card to him. He may draw 2 Faith cards using the movement ability. Discard this card if he's executed or reveals as a Cylon

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