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Blood Bowl: Team Manager – The Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Playing as Dwarves -- Rules Questions. rss

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Really loving this game more and more each time I play it (already dying for the expansion), but every game I seem to have several niggling rules questions (I think because of all the interactions between the abilities) so I want to try to squash them as much as possible.

-Rigorous Training: Card says each time a player uses Guard, I get to draw and discard. But (and this is a more fundamental question about Guard), wouldn't the opponent almost always simply target the player with Guard (especially if Longbeard, and if this card is in play, but seemingly almost always anyway)? If that is the case can that targeted player still "use" Guard? Presume no, in which case this card seems to have almost zero benefit except in the extremely rare circumstance of a player targeting another player instead of the player with Guard at a matchup.

-Bear the Grudge: Says allow a downed player to attempt a tackle using his standing Star Power -- but does the player get to use any of his abilities (e.g., Dauntless)? Presume no since the player would still be "Downed" and thus unable, but wanted to confirm.

-Payout Collection: In what order are payouts collected? I may have missed it but I don't see it in the manual. Do you do winner gets all his payouts (including central first) then loser? In player order? First endzones then central?

-Definition of "Loser": Some cards trigger effects for losses. I presume you have to actually have a card committed in order to "lose," even in a 2P game -- is that correct?

-Coaches: Coaches allow you to use skills. I presume for e.g., tackling coach you can give that to a player who already has tackle(s) for an extra tackle, yes?

-Upgrades: Presume you can have multiple copies of a single upgrade card (e.g., tackling coach)?
 
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Goran M
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I really love the game as well... its simply great.

Bear the Grudge - no, downed players can't use abilities
Payout - We usually collect it Winner first, in order of matches played, first central, then endzone
Loser - yeah, in order to be loser you have to have at least some player there. If your last player gets injured, you don't have presence anymore
Coaches - yeah, its extra tackle
Upgrade - yeah, but the same rule apply - 1 activation after player commited
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Thanks for those. On payouts, do you look and choose one at a time? Or can you collect everything for a matchup and then decide? Example: Can you see what your endzone star player is before deciding on what to pick in central? (Or vice versa.) This is one of the reasons why I think order and method of payout is actually somewhat important.
 
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Sami Liukkonen
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AstroLad wrote:
-Rigorous Training: Card says each time a player uses Guard, I get to draw and discard. But (and this is a more fundamental question about Guard), wouldn't the opponent almost always simply target the player with Guard (especially if Longbeard, and if this card is in play, but seemingly almost always anyway)? If that is the case can that targeted player still "use" Guard? Presume no, in which case this card seems to have almost zero benefit except in the extremely rare circumstance of a player targeting another player instead of the player with Guard at a matchup.


If you go by the rules, it goes just like you said, and is fairly useless. However, we have played it so that a Guard can guard himself if tackled, so this card would see at least some use.
 
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CJ
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NorthSaber wrote:
AstroLad wrote:
-Rigorous Training: Card says each time a player uses Guard, I get to draw and discard. But (and this is a more fundamental question about Guard), wouldn't the opponent almost always simply target the player with Guard (especially if Longbeard, and if this card is in play, but seemingly almost always anyway)? If that is the case can that targeted player still "use" Guard? Presume no, in which case this card seems to have almost zero benefit except in the extremely rare circumstance of a player targeting another player instead of the player with Guard at a matchup.


If you go by the rules, it goes just like you said, and is fairly useless. However, we have played it so that a Guard can guard himself if tackled, so this card would see at least some use.


There's been a fair bit of debate about this on some other threads but I think we're going to see the FAQ quash this possibility. It is certainly of minimal use as a result but thems the shakes, I fear.
 
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brian
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thegrey wrote:
I really love the game as well... its simply great.

Bear the Grudge - no, downed players can't use abilities
Payout - We usually collect it Winner first, in order of matches played, first central, then endzone
Loser - yeah, in order to be loser you have to have at least some player there. If your last player gets injured, you don't have presence anymore
Coaches - yeah, its extra tackle
Upgrade - yeah, but the same rule apply - 1 activation after player commited

Goran is correct, but I wanted to clarify a couple of points.

With the Coaching upgrade, it is an extra tackle icon that can be given to any of your players, whether they have the tackling icon or not. Given how the question and answer were phrased, I wasn't sure if your intended question was answered or if you thought there was a further restriction on this.

On Payouts, we typically do Winning endzone, Central payout, Losing endzone. For us this is easier to handle because it is in a straight line. But whatever convention you use, just be consistent. Furthermore, you take payouts as soon as you resolve the matchup (just keep them in your improvement pile until the end of the turn).

Finally, a couple of these should be addressed on the FAQ. But I can't comment on them yet as FFG still reserves the right to pull an answer from an FAQ and/or change it from when I last saw it.
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Ken H.
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elgin_j wrote:
NorthSaber wrote:
AstroLad wrote:
-Rigorous Training: Card says each time a player uses Guard, I get to draw and discard. But (and this is a more fundamental question about Guard), wouldn't the opponent almost always simply target the player with Guard (especially if Longbeard, and if this card is in play, but seemingly almost always anyway)? If that is the case can that targeted player still "use" Guard? Presume no, in which case this card seems to have almost zero benefit except in the extremely rare circumstance of a player targeting another player instead of the player with Guard at a matchup.


If you go by the rules, it goes just like you said, and is fairly useless. However, we have played it so that a Guard can guard himself if tackled, so this card would see at least some use.


There's been a fair bit of debate about this on some other threads but I think we're going to see the FAQ quash this possibility. It is certainly of minimal use as a result but thems the shakes, I fear.


Seems like a design flaw. It makes me wonder if the mechanics of Guard were changed late in the process, and they just didn't bother fixing this card. Maybe an expansion will add an ability that makes your opponent want to let you use Guard, but otherwise Rigorous Training is a non-ability. I think it should be house-ruled into something useful. What if it was changed to say whenever a player with guard is downed, you get to draw?
 
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Rubric wrote:
Seems like a design flaw. It makes me wonder if the mechanics of Guard were changed late in the process, and they just didn't bother fixing this card. Maybe an expansion will add an ability that makes your opponent want to let you use Guard, but otherwise Rigorous Training is a non-ability. I think it should be house-ruled into something useful. What if it was changed to say whenever a player with guard is downed, you get to draw?


Seems like Guard would work more closely to something useful where you are not able to directly tackle the Guard player. Just thinking off the top of my head -- I'm not much of a house ruler which is why I always come here for confirmation as to what the official-ish rules are from BGG and people like brian. :p
 
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Gary Cormier
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AstroLad wrote:
Rubric wrote:
Seems like a design flaw. It makes me wonder if the mechanics of Guard were changed late in the process, and they just didn't bother fixing this card. Maybe an expansion will add an ability that makes your opponent want to let you use Guard, but otherwise Rigorous Training is a non-ability. I think it should be house-ruled into something useful. What if it was changed to say whenever a player with guard is downed, you get to draw?


Seems like Guard would work more closely to something useful where you are not able to directly tackle the Guard player. Just thinking off the top of my head -- I'm not much of a house ruler which is why I always come here for confirmation as to what the official-ish rules are from BGG and people like brian.


Rigorous Training is indeed weak under the current wording.

We play that if a player with guard is hit and there's another dwarf at the matchup (in other words, the guard did his job, he took the hit instead of the other player) Rigorous Training can be activated.

It makes it similar in power to a sprint coach. The sprint coach's advantage is you can activate it with the first player you put down. Rigorous training's advantage is it could activate more than once per round (assuming after the 3rd or 4th player played you still have cards in your hand that you *want* to discard).
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The_Finn wrote:
We play that if a player with guard is hit and there's another dwarf at the matchup (in other words, the guard did his job, he took the hit instead of the other player) Rigorous Training can be activated.

It makes it similar in power to a sprint coach. The sprint coach's advantage is you can activate it with the first player you put down. Rigorous training's advantage is it could activate more than once per round (assuming after the 3rd or 4th player played you still have cards in your hand that you *want* to discard).

I don't usually like house-ruling but I think this is very reasonable.
 
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Michael Denman
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NorthSaber wrote:
AstroLad wrote:
-Rigorous Training: Card says each time a player uses Guard, I get to draw and discard. But (and this is a more fundamental question about Guard), wouldn't the opponent almost always simply target the player with Guard (especially if Longbeard, and if this card is in play, but seemingly almost always anyway)? If that is the case can that targeted player still "use" Guard? Presume no, in which case this card seems to have almost zero benefit except in the extremely rare circumstance of a player targeting another player instead of the player with Guard at a matchup.


If you go by the rules, it goes just like you said, and is fairly useless. However, we have played it so that a Guard can guard himself if tackled, so this card would see at least some use.


Yeah, this makes sense to me. All this does is allow Rigorous Training to trigger with some frequency which could actually make it useful. Does allowing a Guard to guard himself BREAK anything?
 
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Chris D
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The_Finn wrote:

We play that if a player with guard is hit and there's another dwarf at the matchup (in other words, the guard did his job, he took the hit instead of the other player) Rigorous Training can be activated.


This solution works most of the time but there are situations where you want to target a lineman instead of another player not for the Guard itself, let's say I have a 3 SP player with Block, the opponent has a lineman and a 4 SP player. I don't want to risk a "tackler down" result so I target the lineman, but in this case his Guard ability shoulnd't be triggered, imho.

Another situation is if I have a 4 SP player with Block, and the opponent has a lineman and a 3 SP player. Here generally speaking I want to tackle the 3 SP player and the Guard ability is useful, but as we have seen, the result is that almost always the player with Guard is targeted and thus he can't activate the ability.

Right now I can't think of an elegant solution that solves all these problems, but I'm inclined to do a small house ruling just for the Dwarves so that Rigorous Training is not useless, either Dwarves can guard themselves or what The_Finn said, or players with Guard cannot be targeted if there are other players without Guard at the matchup (this would probably make guard too strong though...)?
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Cesar Gomez
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Hi, first of all my apologies for my english.

About the guard problem, I think you are forgeting some important points.

1. Dwarves have several players with guard, making more than usual to get 2 o more in the same match. So isn't a problem to use this skill.

2. The card gives the team one thing they miss a lot. Sprint, usually 2 or 3 times per turn. I think it's pretty awesome. What you want, 6 Sprints?!

So I think the card isn't useless at all.
 
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Daniel Hammond
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Disculpé mi español. Pero si tiene dos jugadores en un juego, uno fuerte y el otro tiene guardia. Por que tiro el dado contra el jugador fuerte con menos probabilidad cuando Ud. puede tirar dos contra el guardia con el mismo efecto?

If you have 2 players at a match up one strong and one with guard skill, why would you roll less dice trying to knock down the strong one (which will trigger guard and knock the guard down anyway) when you could roll more dice with better odds just trying to knock down the guard and without triggering an effect that helps your opponent?

cgbernardino wrote:
Hi, first of all my apologies for my english.

About the guard problem, I think you are forgeting some important points.

1. Dwarves have several players with guard, making more than usual to get 2 o more in the same match. So isn't a problem to use this skill.

2. The card gives the team one thing they miss a lot. Sprint, usually 2 or 3 times per turn. I think it's pretty awesome. What you want, 6 Sprints?!

So I think the card isn't useless at all.
 
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Blood Bowl: Team Manager – The Card Game » Forums » Rules
Re: Playing as Dwarves -- Rules Questions.
dlhammond wrote:
Disculpé mi español. Pero si tiene dos jugadores en un juego, uno fuerte y el otro tiene guardia. Por que tiro el dado contra el jugador fuerte con menos probabilidad cuando Ud. puede tirar dos contra el guardia con el mismo efecto?

If you have 2 players at a match up one strong and one with guard skill, why would you roll less dice trying to knock down the strong one (which will trigger guard and knock the guard down anyway) when you could roll more dice with better odds just trying to knock down the guard and without triggering an effect that helps your opponent?

cgbernardino wrote:
Hi, first of all my apologies for my english.

About the guard problem, I think you are forgeting some important points.

1. Dwarves have several players with guard, making more than usual to get 2 o more in the same match. So isn't a problem to use this skill.

2. The card gives the team one thing they miss a lot. Sprint, usually 2 or 3 times per turn. I think it's pretty awesome. What you want, 6 Sprints?!

So I think the card isn't useless at all.


he was talking about having 2 players with guard , it sure is hard to trigger : Two dwarves with guard at one match up for one sprint in the late turns .
 
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