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BattleCON: War of Indines» Forums » Rules

Subject: Timing of Ante Effects? rss

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Clinton Paris
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This came up today and I wasn't sure how to rule it:

Are ante effects resolved before cards are revealed? That is, Luc Von Gott has his "Time Stop" ability where he can ante five time tokens to stun an opponent. Is the opponent stunned before revealing cards, or could a character that plays a card with Stun Immunity save himself?

meeple

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Brad Talton
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All ante effects (except Heketch's teleport) take effect during the reveal step. So someone with stun immunity would still get past Luc's Time Stop, and Cadenza can still ante one of his tokens to circumvent it.
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Noah Bogart
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Kyokai wrote:
All ante effects (except Heketch's teleport) take effect during the reveal step. So someone with stun immunity would still get past Luc's Time Stop, and Cadenza can still ante one of his tokens to circumvent it.

What's to stop Cadenza from saying he's not going to ante, and then Luc says he'll ante, and then Cadenza saying, "No, wait, I'll ante."
 
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Clinton Paris
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NoahTheDuke wrote:
What's to stop Cadenza from saying he's not going to ante, and then Luc says he'll ante, and then Cadenza saying, "No, wait, I'll ante."

My understanding is 'nothing', and in fact this is an important distinction for some characters to be effective.

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Noah Bogart
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Hmm, yeah, I guess my proffered situation falls under the "once both players pass" in Magic rules.
 
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Brad Talton
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crparis wrote:
NoahTheDuke wrote:
What's to stop Cadenza from saying he's not going to ante, and then Luc says he'll ante, and then Cadenza saying, "No, wait, I'll ante."

My understanding is 'nothing', and in fact this is an important distinction for some characters to be effective.


That is exactly correct.
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Jay Kiley
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Who antes first? I ask because, even though you can change your mind if you say that you are not anteing, if the other side immediately passes also, then the ante phase ends.

Thus, it could be important to know who is obligated to ante first.
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Brad Talton
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Neither player is obligated to go first. The phase ends when both players decide together that they do not wish to ante further. A player is allowed to say "no wait, I really do want to ante" at any time before the cards are turned over, but once either player reveals their attack, it's too late.
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Jay Kiley
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BattleCON: War of Indines » Forums » Rules
Re: Timing of Ante Effects?
Gotcha. Thanks.
 
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Robert Dane
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I've just been learning this game with a friend. Really enjoyed it but the rules for who antes when as are very confusing. If it really is "I'm waiting to see what you do" then there needs to be some distinction as to turn order.

In the end the way we decided to play was after selecting cards players taken all there ante tokens into there hand and secretly hold out none or some in a fist in front of them. This then made it a simultaneous selection in secret like the card selection. This seemed to make this section of the game playable.
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JW
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Ertikins wrote:
I've just been learning this game with a friend. Really enjoyed it but the rules for who antes when as are very confusing. If it really is "I'm waiting to see what you do" then there needs to be some distinction as to turn order.

In the end the way we decided to play was after selecting cards players taken all there ante tokens into there hand and secretly hold out none or some in a fist in front of them. This then made it a simultaneous selection in secret like the card selection. This seemed to make this section of the game playable.

Although at first it seemed pretty inelegant, in actual case the rule works out fairly well.

If both players are waiting on each other, then the game should just proceed and neither player gets to ante. If someone then goes "Oh wait, if the game is proceeding, I will ante something then", that's fine, and the other guy then gets to choose what to ante and so on.

Some characters usually have to ante first (e.g. Rukyuk), otherwise his attacks won't hit. I guess it's perfectly fine for the opponent to say "I'll wait till you ante your bullet before I choose mine, otherwise, I'm not going to ante and the game proceeds and you don't get to hit me anyway."

Other characters have reactionary antes (e.g. Cadenza), which means you always want to see what other people do first.

Evaluating matchups and understanding who should be the first person to ante is a key skill in this game.

Just as an aside, a friend and I was thinking about how the game would change should the ante phase become a double blind selection procedure. Would it make the game better or worse?
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Jayson Stevens
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Ertikins wrote:
In the end the way we decided to play was after selecting cards players taken all there ante tokens into there hand and secretly hold out none or some in a fist in front of them. This then made it a simultaneous selection in secret like the card selection. This seemed to make this section of the game playable.


It very much depends on the character.

I do the fist thing myself for the initial antes, but follow the rulebook after that point. It's an easy way to get things going.

Honestly, for a lot of characters (Rukyuk, Hepzibah, Hikaru, Vanaah), you are going to be doing an ante regardless of what your opponent does, so dancing around with the "I'm waiting for you" thing is really just being a dick. The fact ism, you already chose your attack, and you probably chose it specifically with your ante in mind.

Other characters, it's necessary for them to wait and see. Cadenza and Cherri are big for this.

Others, you want to react against them. Anyone playing against Heketch needs to ante reactively, for instance.

The rulebook procedure is important. You just have to start recognizing that the character you're playing is most likely NOT hurt by going first, and then stop being silly.
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Noah Bogart
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crushedguava wrote:
Just as an aside, a friend and I was thinking about how the game would change should the ante phase become a double blind selection procedure. Would it make the game better or worse?


I'm not super good at the game, but I would definitely opine that it'd make the game worse. Some of the characters would be straight-up worse if ante-ing was double-blind. Cadenza, Hikaru, and Vanaah are the first couple that come to mind as characters who benefit from seeing if the other person will ante first. Other characters, such as Rukyuk and Luc, don't mind too much by going first, but with Cadenza especially, it's not worth it at all to ante if you don't know for certain that the opponent is going to auto-stun you.

It would be very interesting to test out, though!
 
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Yaron Racah
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Kyokai wrote:
All ante effects (except Heketch's teleport) take effect during the reveal step.


Is Luc's teleport an exception, too? It doesn't explicitly say it takes place in the ante phase (the way Heketch does), but it does say "immediately".
 
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Brad Talton
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Sorry, yes, Luc's teleport is also ante. I forgot about that one for a minute XD
 
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Andrey Trubitsin
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palmerkun wrote:
The fact ism, you already chose your attack, and you probably chose it specifically with your ante in mind.

This is the elephant in the room that I couldn't notice until now. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

And while people are throwing Luc/Heketch questions around, can their teleports be negated by Lixis's Naturalizing? I think they can't.
 
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Brad Talton
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That's correct, Naturalizing doesn't affect teleports, since they happen during the ante step.
 
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