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Subject: ASL Is NOT a Game That Can Be Played Casually. rss

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Robin wrote:
Eurogames ask for quite an effort to be well played too.

Now, there are - in all human groups - psychological profiles of people who will be approximative, not interested in learning, lazy and who, at the same time, want to be rewarded by success.
In the world of gaming, I keep away from such people, because they are not trying to offer an interesting challenge to their opponents and beating them doesn't even feed the motive of being usefull for their progress.

Exactly!
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I understand what you mean. Players need to take an effort. However, you can you fault a person (let's assume they are trying), to have missed the fact about armour assault. I have read the rules a lot, and when I first saw an armour assault, I had no idea what it is. I looked it up afterwards, but I think I am passable player. I play against the likes of Dean McGinley, Marty Snow, Tom Repetti, Tom Lavan and Tom Jazzbutis. However, I am still learning to get the subtleties of TH calculations.

Being surrounded by such good players, also can be a hindrance in some ways. I try to figure out the TH, but I do it slowly when they have in their head.

I think you are right. They need to make an effort, but don't fault them for not knowing all the subtleties of the game. That comes with time and practice.
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What I guess I mean, is don't confuse lack strategy and tatics as always lack of rules. ASL has lots of them, and it is easy to miss them. The really good players get to know them, and try.

You are right. To be good at this game, you need to play it fairly often.

PS. I am tired of losing at FRASL. My day will come someday.
 
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Andy Beaton
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I have a couple of "casual" ASL opponents, and they do fine. We keep the scenarios simple, no night or air power, and I tell them to worry about their tactics and I'll watch the rules. I don't play all hard core against them, and don't spring any rules on them that I haven't allowed them to use against me before. And we have good fun. They're good enough at the tactics that I get an interesting game.
And I don't always win.
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Rousseau Burton
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ASL rules are initially best learned in solo play because your goal is not to win or be social, but to learn the rules. The "game" in solo play is to play a perfect game with no screw up of the rules. It's a nice reward, to become master of the rules. Once it gets boring (ie. you've mastered the game mechanics) then move on to playing live and start learning strategy and tactics. The rewards increase even more.
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Patrick Martin
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I play ASL casually... it's a game for enjoyment not a vocation.
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Martin Vicca
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Rousseau Burton wrote:
ASL rules are initially best learned in solo play because your goal is not to win or be social, but to learn the rules. The "game" in solo play is to play a perfect game with no screw up of the rules. It's a nice reward, to become master of the rules. Once it gets boring (ie. you've mastered the game mechanics) then move on to playing live and start learning strategy and tactics. The rewards increase even more.


I cannot agree with this at all. The RB is dense and very badly written. ASL rules are best learned socially where you can bounce questions off each other. If you have a tutor then all the better. The number of rules we played wrongly because our little group had misread the rules is horrendous.
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Perry Cocke
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aiabx wrote:
I have a couple of "casual" ASL opponents, and they do fine. We keep the scenarios simple, no night or air power, and I tell them to worry about their tactics and I'll watch the rules. I don't play all hard core against them, and don't spring any rules on them that I haven't allowed them to use against me before. And we have good fun. They're good enough at the tactics that I get an interesting game.
And I don't always win.


This sounds great, but some commitment from even "casual" opponents is required (as in most any strategy game). It's OK to spring the 20mm AA gun on the T-34 the first time, but in the next game one must be thinking about TK #s. Sometimes it's best to go over these basics with "casual" opponents before starting, just like a good teacher.
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Andy Beaton
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perrycocke wrote:
aiabx wrote:
I have a couple of "casual" ASL opponents, and they do fine. We keep the scenarios simple, no night or air power, and I tell them to worry about their tactics and I'll watch the rules. I don't play all hard core against them, and don't spring any rules on them that I haven't allowed them to use against me before. And we have good fun. They're good enough at the tactics that I get an interesting game.
And I don't always win.


This sounds great, but some commitment from even "casual" opponents is required (as in most any strategy game). It's OK to spring the 20mm AA gun on the T-34 the first time, but in the next game one must be thinking about TK #s. Sometimes it's best to go over these basics with "casual" opponents before starting, just like a good teacher.


Of course. And they're smart enough to pick up the basics so I don't have to go over the basic sequence of play or the IFT every time. But 30 seconds before the start of play to say "That's the rate of fire, that's the number you need to push it, it breaks on an 11 and your TK number is 6 - you need to roll a -5 to kill on the front of a T-34" and that's enough for someone with common sense to make an intelligent play. They know what an AA gun looks like and what it does.
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Liam Whalen
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I really like ASL as an immersive experience. I have mainly played the Starter Kit, but the few full games I have played add so much extra detail that I know I will enjoy the full system once I am comfortable with it.

However, I'm in school, and do not have the time to read the rule book let alone play that game. I have some very patient teachers in Ottawa, and they are great embassadors for ASL, but I did feel like I was not able to contribute enough effort to the game while I was in Ottawa.

I would play once or twice a month, and I never really progressed passed the infantry portion of the game. As well, I was constantly forgetting about moving in open ground and making the same mistakes. Everyone is very good natured and keen to get new players into the game. But, if I was an experienced player teaching someone the game, I would hope that eventually they would provide a challenging experience.

So, while I continue to buy MMP products, I have put the gaming on the back burner until I can dedicate the time necessary to read the rules and play on a weekly basis. As it is, I still have not unpunched by copy of For King and Country.

I play a lot of Eurogames and co-op games, and I really like them, but there is an immersive almost a narrative like quality to ASL, and I imagine the all encompassing aspect of the game is hindered by someone who is not able to provide a challenge. Being the person responsible for not providing a challenge, I cannot say this for sure. But, I know if I was constantly second guessing my opponents moves it would detract from my experience.
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Martin Vicca
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I'd stick with it. If you are only playing once a month or so, then as long as you are playing people better than you, you will improve.
There is a "hump" you need to clear. Once you have done that, like riding a bike, you will be in a position to just add tweaks.

It takes along time to play well but at its heart it's not a difficult game.

Look at the RB. It is huge but take away the terrain section. Cutout the examples and specialist parts. Remove the detailed explanation of the to hit and to kill charts (most the info is on the divider) and you are left with the SK3 runlebook. This is digestible without too much effort but unfortunately it is so hidden by extraneous detil that you get lost.
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Wasp Factoryman
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Hi,

Since embarking on the ‘great journey’ that is ASL I have had a recurrent dream, well nightmare really. I am presently picking my way gingerly (and solo) through the RB: a multi-verse of multiple interpretations and obscure wording that, to give it credit, once you ‘get it’ makes perfect sense. I admire the complexity and quickly understood that ASL is not a casual game. It’s the right time for me and ASL to get to know each other. A few years earlier I could not have indulged this breadth of time to a hobby, but now, like certain records at first hearing that sound diabolical but later, with differing circumstances, blow you away (I’m thinking Boards of Canada here) I’m attuned cosmically to ASL!

Anyhow, back to my recurrent nightmare: It’s my first face-to-face ASL battle with an actual human being. After years of monastic solitude deciphering the elongated concepts of the RB I’m quietly confident I will not make a fool of myself against this ASL campaign veteran. I make my first move. My opponent turns the colour of red-cabbage, sweat bubbles pop on his brow, he stares intently at me then screams : 'Nien! Nien! Ridiculous! Preposterous! Absurd! Have you even heard of FFMO or FFNAM? You fool, you bloody stupid fool!'

He is a Sturmbann-rules-fuhrer and the next few hours will hurt.

Just a nightmare I have since taking up ASL.

Best regards,
J
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Martí Cabré

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ASLNoob wrote:

Maybe the title of this thread was incorrect. Instead of "ASL is NOT a Game That Can Be Played Casually" it should have been "ASL is NOT a Game that Can be Played Passively".


I agree.
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Spencer Armstrong
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marticabre wrote:
ASLNoob wrote:

Maybe the title of this thread was incorrect. Instead of "ASL is NOT a Game That Can Be Played Casually" it should have been "ASL is NOT a Game that Can be Played Passively".


I agree.


as do I. I stand by what I said up-topic, but "passively" is a better adjective for what you're talking about than "casually."

I still say the more you put into it, the more you'll get out of it.

S
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Gary Fortenberry
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Robin and the other guy....

You two are taking offense where none was intended. The phrases the guy chose were an analogy...in no way was his intent to demean anyone, or bruise any egos.

When offense is taken at relatively innoccuous statements it soon becomes very easy to squelch all speech, then thought.

Lighten up, and toughen up Buttercup.

I play more eurogames than ASL, and I didn't even blink at his apt analogy.
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Robert Wilson
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ASLNoob wrote:


What this adds up to is that a lack of really basic rules knowledge caused him to essential toss away his game. At this point he has about 6 or 8 games of full ASL under his belt so these things should be pretty solid.


I think expecting a new player to be up to full speed after only 6-8 games is asking too much

you might want to step back and go to infantry only scenarios until he gets the base game mechanics down pat , the interaction between AFV/INF/ORD can be EXTREMELY overwhelming to a new player , even on defence

speaking of that, in the first 20 games of SK and ASL I played I HATED being the attacker, so many options literally gave me analysis paralysis and Im an Air traffic Controller, I was more nervous playing a boardgame than talking to aircraft that were getting close!

I dont know how you teach, but a brief overview of the TH/TK chances and the benefits of HIP might have helped your opponent before the game , but I think 1 step back to go 2 steps forward would be your best bet
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Robert Wilson
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ASLNoob wrote:


My frustration with my particular noob is not his lack of knowledge, it's his lack of initiative. He often doesn't bring his own RB or charts. He almost never looks at a chart during play. When announcing a shot he does not look at the To-Hit table and start running the numbers, instead he just goes "Ummmm, let's see..." while looking at me with sheepish eyes and expecting me to do it.

Maybe the title of this thread was incorrect. Instead of "ASL is NOT a Game That Can Be Played Casually" it should have been "ASL is NOT a Game that Can be Played Passively".


Maybe next game ask him to look up the TH/IFT/IIFT numbers for himself, thats what I would do .
 
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Jakob Schneider
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I think the "break in period" for ASL is about 4-5 games.
Asking for TH procedures in your 6th game is a bit much, but I'd be a bit more lenient with stuff like sewer movement.
That said, ASL is a game that requires some dedication. If you can't muster that dedication: GTFO!
 
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Jim F
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Runes wrote:

That said, ASL is a game that requires some dedication. If you can't muster that dedication: GTFO!


Sturmbann-rules-fuhrer is that you? (wakes in a cold sweat)
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Perhaps it is time for a new opponent? I hope he is not your only one. Or time to confront him and say, "can you take a bit more effort?" It is harsh, but if he is not invested in learning the game at all, it will not be fun for either of you.

ASLNoob wrote:
dude163 wrote:
I think expecting a new player to be up to full speed after only 6-8 games is asking too much

Like I've said before it's a question of attitude not knowledge. I sure don't expect him to up to full speed. Heck, I'm not up to full speed on ASL after 40 or 50 games.

His 6-8 games of ASL is on top of 5-6 games of SK1 and SK2. At this point I would absolutely expect a player to be holding his To-Hit and To-Kill charts in hand and be able to at least make a decent attempt at running the numbers. I was doing this eagerly with my first game of ASL!

"Let's see, you're 8 hexes away, so base to-hit of 9, +2 DRM because you're In Motion, -1 DRM because you're a Large Target and so forth..." Most of this is really basic and was covered repeatedly in SK2. If he did this much and then let me fill in the nuances I'd be thrilled.

And, believe me, I've prompted him a dozen times. When I do he fumbles for the charts and doesn't seem to clearly even know where to look. Then the next time he takes a shot he just looks at me with big passive eyes and waits....so I have to prompt him again or do it myself.

At some point in the process a player has to show a little drive, willingness and initiative. Which brings me back to the essential point that ASL is not a game that can be played and absorbed passively.
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Robert Wilson
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cscottk wrote:
Perhaps it is time for a new opponent? I hope he is not your only one. Or time to confront him and say, "can you take a bit more effort?" It is harsh, but if he is not invested in learning the game at all, it will not be fun for either of you.

ASLNoob wrote:
dude163 wrote:
I think expecting a new player to be up to full speed after only 6-8 games is asking too much

Like I've said before it's a question of attitude not knowledge. I sure don't expect him to up to full speed. Heck, I'm not up to full speed on ASL after 40 or 50 games.

His 6-8 games of ASL is on top of 5-6 games of SK1 and SK2. At this point I would absolutely expect a player to be holding his To-Hit and To-Kill charts in hand and be able to at least make a decent attempt at running the numbers. I was doing this eagerly with my first game of ASL!

"Let's see, you're 8 hexes away, so base to-hit of 9, +2 DRM because you're In Motion, -1 DRM because you're a Large Target and so forth..." Most of this is really basic and was covered repeatedly in SK2. If he did this much and then let me fill in the nuances I'd be thrilled.

And, believe me, I've prompted him a dozen times. When I do he fumbles for the charts and doesn't seem to clearly even know where to look. Then the next time he takes a shot he just looks at me with big passive eyes and waits....so I have to prompt him again or do it myself.

At some point in the process a player has to show a little drive, willingness and initiative. Which brings me back to the essential point that ASL is not a game that can be played and absorbed passively.


I agree with the above poster

if playing ASL is like pulling teeth with this guy , its time to get a new opponent I think
 
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Jeffrey D Myers
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Advanced Squad Leader » Forums » General
Re: ASL Is NOT a Game That Can Be Played Casually.
At least you get a scream once in a while when pulling teeth....
 
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Jakob Schneider
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Ashiefan wrote:
Runes wrote:

That said, ASL is a game that requires some dedication. If you can't muster that dedication: GTFO!


Sturmbann-rules-fuhrer is that you? (wakes in a cold sweat)


In no way.
It's just that I taught myself the game on my own and won my first two games.
The third was a campaign (Achtung! Panzer!) which my side won, too.

I just think, that the early period in any players career lets you tell if ASL is for him or not.

Anyways, most germans (me included) don't react too well to random SS jokes. Just sayin'.
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Andy Beaton
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Runes wrote:
Ashiefan wrote:
Runes wrote:

That said, ASL is a game that requires some dedication. If you can't muster that dedication: GTFO!


Sturmbann-rules-fuhrer is that you? (wakes in a cold sweat)


In no way.
It's just that I taught myself the game on my own and won my first two games.
The third was a campaign (Achtung! Panzer!) which my side won, too.

I just think, that the early period in any players career lets you tell if ASL is for him or not.

Anyways, most germans (me included) don't react too well to random SS jokes. Just sayin'.


Good man! That's how we did it in the bad old days!
 
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