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Dominion: Seaside» Forums » Rules

Subject: Playing Embargo rss

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Thayne Weston
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The die has been cast- Julius Caesar
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I couldn't find this answered in the forum or rule book, so I thought I would ask. For embargo, do you get the 2 coin and the trashing the card for a token or do you choose one. The followup depending on the answer is do you have to trash embargo if you play it or is that optional. My guess would be if played you get the cash and the trash and both are mandatory if played. Just wanted clarification. Thanks!
 
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Drew Spencer
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All steps on a card are mandatory and done in order unless otherwise specified. So when you play Embargo, you get $2, then you trash the Embargo, then you add an Embargo token to a supply pile. You have to do each step.
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DC
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The universal Dominion rule applies: Read the card one item at a time, from the beginning, executing each item if you can and ignoring it if you can't. So:

+$2: You now have $2 to use in this turn's buy phase
Trash this card: Trash it (regardless of anything else that you have done).
Put an Embargo token on top of a Supply pile (you must do this).

(below the line specifies what happens with the coins)

So, there are no choices or options about which one of these to do -- do them all, in order.
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Roberta Yang
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That which is not explicitly optional is mandatory.
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Kenneth Stuart
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Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you still do everything when you King's Court or Throne Room the Embargo. You'll only trash the card once, but you will get multiple +$2 and can place multiple embargo tokens.

Again, please correct me if that is incorrect. Isentropic plays this way and I've only ever noticed one rule they've gotten wrong.
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S. Fakhouri
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wizcreations wrote:
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you still do everything when you King's Court or Throne Room the Embargo. You'll only trash the card once, but you will get multiple +$2 and can place multiple embargo tokens.

Again, please correct me if that is incorrect. Isentropic plays this way and I've only ever noticed one rule they've gotten wrong.


You are still correct. Look at the language on the card. None of the things you do are dependent on each other. As such, when you play King's Court or Throne Room with embargo, you can do everything on it minus the trashing of the card twice or thrice, respectively.

Contrast this with a card like Mining Village; which gives you +1 card and +2 actions and the following:

"You may trash this card immediately. If you do, +2 coins."

See the difference? The "If you do" statement is extremely important here, since it means you only gain the benefit if you trash the card. As such, if you were to play Throne Room or King's Court, you can gain the +1 card and +2 actions two times or three times, BUT you can only gain the +2 coins ONCE, since you can only trash the Mining Village ONCE!
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Roberta Yang
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Notably, you still attempt to trash the card. It's just that doing so has no effect.
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Tables
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wizcreations wrote:
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you still do everything when you King's Court or Throne Room the Embargo. You'll only trash the card once, but you will get multiple +$2 and can place multiple embargo tokens.

Again, please correct me if that is incorrect. Isentropic plays this way and I've only ever noticed one rule they've gotten wrong.


I'm interested in the rule you think Isotropic gets wrong. To the best of my knowledge there's only really two things Isotropic does wrong (ironically, one involves embargo):
1) You can only reveal reactions up to ~4 times. But this is intentional, because there's no reason to reveal a reaction more than about twice currently anyway.
2) If you Embargo a card X times, then try to buy that card with a trader in hand when there are less than X curses in the supply, you can only gain as many silvers as there are curses. This can actually matter, as you might get messed out of a few silvers you were planning to grab. But it's such a corner case I doubt it'll ever matter. (Note the same thing can happen with Cache and an almost empty Copper pile, or other such multi-gain events I've missed)
 
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Kenneth Stuart
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I Eat Tables wrote:
wizcreations wrote:
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you still do everything when you King's Court or Throne Room the Embargo. You'll only trash the card once, but you will get multiple +$2 and can place multiple embargo tokens.

Again, please correct me if that is incorrect. Isentropic plays this way and I've only ever noticed one rule they've gotten wrong.


I'm interested in the rule you think Isotropic gets wrong. To the best of my knowledge there's only really two things Isotropic does wrong (ironically, one involves embargo):
1) You can only reveal reactions up to ~4 times. But this is intentional, because there's no reason to reveal a reaction more than about twice currently anyway.
2) If you Embargo a card X times, then try to buy that card with a trader in hand when there are less than X curses in the supply, you can only gain as many silvers as there are curses. This can actually matter, as you might get messed out of a few silvers you were planning to grab. But it's such a corner case I doubt it'll ever matter. (Note the same thing can happen with Cache and an almost empty Copper pile, or other such multi-gain events I've missed)


I remember being able to reveal reactions more than 4 times... that got annoying with the n00bs. I like the fix they've done now.

I've not noticed that #2 item, though that is pretty upsetting. You should be able to gain as many silvers as embargo tokens!

What I've noticed is wrong is the Inn. The Inn specifically says "look through your discard pile" when you gain it. Isentropic only shows you the actions in your discard pile, but I want to see (and am entitled to see) EVERYTHING! The Inn can be a good strategy card to let you know what may be coming up in your deck and what you've already played. We should be allowed to take full advantage of the card.
 
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Whitney Barnes

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wizcreations wrote:
I've not noticed that #2 item, though that is pretty upsetting. You should be able to gain as many silvers as embargo tokens!


No, Trader doens't trigger unless you are actually gaining a curse. If there are none to give you, Trader can't trigger.

Quote:
What I've noticed is wrong is the Inn. The Inn specifically says "look through your discard pile" when you gain it. Isentropic only shows you the actions in your discard pile, but I want to see (and am entitled to see) EVERYTHING! The Inn can be a good strategy card to let you know what may be coming up in your deck and what you've already played. We should be allowed to take full advantage of the card.


That's true. Philosopher's Stone is the same, you are supposed to be able to examine your discard when you play it.
 
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Drew Spencer
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swbarnes2 wrote:
wizcreations wrote:
I've not noticed that #2 item, though that is pretty upsetting. You should be able to gain as many silvers as embargo tokens!


No, Trader doens't trigger unless you are actually gaining a curse. If there are none to give you, Trader can't trigger.


So there are four Embargo tokens on a card (let's say Gold) and three Curses. You buy a Gold, but you have a Trader in hand. What result?

The way Isotropic seems to do it, is it says "gain four Curses," but there are only three so you would only gain three, so you can reveal Trader to gain three Silvers instead.

However, we know that that's not how either Trader or Dominion in general work. Things happen one at a time. Thus when you go to buy a Gold, you would gain one curse for the first Embargo token, but you reveal Trader to get a Silver instead, then you repeat for the other three tokens. Because no Curses actually leave the supply, you should be able to reveal Trader for all four Embargo tokens and wind up gaining four Silvers.

Trader only speaks in the singular; it does not contemplate gaining multiple cards at a time. Plus we have a statement from Donald X. somewhere that specifically says when multiple stuff should happen at the same time it actually happens one thing at a time. I agree that Isotropic is getting it wrong here.
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The Compulsive Completist
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Dominion: Seaside » Forums » Rules
Re: Playing Embargo
Concerning Throne Room and Embargo:

The conclusions everyone has about getting multiple coins is how I have played but reading this thread has me rethinking it.

How can you play a card twice that gets trashed the first time? This may be stated in the rules which is why it has never been a concern before, but reading this away from my game has me second guessing.
 
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Drew Spencer
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Hockey Mask wrote:
The conclusions everyone has about getting multiple coins is how I have played but reading this thread has me rethinking it.


Why is this thread making you rethink that when everyone on this thread agrees that you do get the +$2 and the token twice? The fact that the card is trashed is no more impediment to its being played twice than the fact that any other card is no longer in your hand. Throne Room doesn't require the card to be any particular place to have its instructions followed, and the trash pile isn't some sort of black hole from which no information can escape.

In fact, even playing Embargo once, the Embargo token instruction comes after the "trash this card" instruction, so how can you continue following instructions on a card that has been trashed?
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The Compulsive Completist
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That is what I would have thought but...

Darthcaboose wrote:
wizcreations wrote:
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you still do everything when you King's Court or Throne Room the Embargo. You'll only trash the card once, but you will get multiple +$2 and can place multiple embargo tokens.

Again, please correct me if that is incorrect. Isentropic plays this way and I've only ever noticed one rule they've gotten wrong.


You are still correct. Look at the language on the card. None of the things you do are dependent on each other. As such, when you play King's Court or Throne Room with embargo, you can do everything on it minus the trashing of the card twice or thrice, respectively.
 
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Kenneth Stuart
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swbarnes2 wrote:
wizcreations wrote:
I've not noticed that #2 item, though that is pretty upsetting. You should be able to gain as many silvers as embargo tokens!


No, Trader doens't trigger unless you are actually gaining a curse. If there are none to give you, Trader can't trigger.

Quote:
What I've noticed is wrong is the Inn. The Inn specifically says "look through your discard pile" when you gain it. Isentropic only shows you the actions in your discard pile, but I want to see (and am entitled to see) EVERYTHING! The Inn can be a good strategy card to let you know what may be coming up in your deck and what you've already played. We should be allowed to take full advantage of the card.


That's true. Philosopher's Stone is the same, you are supposed to be able to examine your discard when you play it.


Trader specifically says you gain a silver INSTEAD. So if there were 10 embargo tokens and only 5 curses in the supply, you would still gain 10 silvers because the curses never ran out. You never gained a single curse so the supply count never dropped.
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Dennison Milenkaya
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I notice something that Isotropic does horribly wrong:

Whenever someone discards a card for some effect, say using Hamlet to pick up an additional Action or Buy, you can't see what card is discarded in this way. While the Dominion rulebook supports not revealing more than the top card of the discard pile, and thus hiding cards beyond the top when discarding many at once, the discard pile is a face-up pile and everyone is allowed to see the top discard of every pile at all times.

More irritating is not having any meaningful relevance of the bar graphs that display the various deck and discard piles beyond the deck you own and not knowing how many cards are drawn before a reshuffle.
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Robert Crawford
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FlatOnHisFace wrote:
I notice something that Isotropic does horribly wrong:

Whenever someone discards a card for some effect, say using Hamlet to pick up an additional Action or Buy, you can't see what card is discarded in this way. While the Dominion rulebook supports not revealing more than the top card of the discard pile, and thus hiding cards beyond the top when discarding many at once, the discard pile is a face-up pile and everyone is allowed to see the top discard of every pile at all times.

More irritating is not having any meaningful relevance of the bar graphs that display the various deck and discard piles beyond the deck you own and not knowing how many cards are drawn before a reshuffle.


Unless they've fixed it recently, Isotropic also handles the infamous Ironworks/Trader (and Ironworks/Possession) wrong; by still giving you the Ironworks bonus when you reveal Trader.
 
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