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Subject: Building a seventh skill card deck rss

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David Turczi
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Sorry for redundancy, but I hate that I don't have all my cards in one post. It hurts

Faith skill cards
A seventh deck, called Faith. Both Cylons and humans can both use their text, noone has it in their skill set, and by default it is negative in every skill check.

Everyone except the first player starts the game with 1 extra Faith skill card (beside the normal 3)

Everyone (humans, cylons, brigged people, people in space, etc) gain the following ability:
Quote:
Movement: Draw 1 Faith Skill Card.



1-2: 1-2: 1-3: 3-5: 3-5: 4-5: 0: 6:


Destinations


"Prove Faith" Crisis cards
Prove Faith (infinity symbol) wrote:
If the total value of Faith cards reach or exceed 6, each player (Human or Cylon) contributing to the skill check may draw 1 skill card (it may come out of their skill set). Otherwise trigger the effect printed on the card.


And one in the Colony deck:


Super Crises


Quorum Cards
Three new:


Changes in existing cards:
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Robert Stewart
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TDaver wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:
TDaver wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:
A thought for Stand and Fight:

"After resetting the Jump Track, the CAG may activate vipers any number of times. Then advance the Jump Preparation Marker three spaces and the Pursuit Marker to Auto Attack."

Rather than a preset Cylon attack wave, you face whatever Cylon pursuit you've built up, but the CAG gets to deploy all surviving Vipers as he chooses, and escort away as many civvies as he wants before the Cylons appear.

If you don't have the CFB in play, you shouldn't have the CAG either, so if someone's using the destination anyway, it's their problem...


The problem with "any number of times" is you can shoot and escort with any number... And this destination should sting even if you just nuked and ran, which it won't do with CFB.


The point of the timing (after the Cylons get cleared but before forcing the attack) is that you've got nothing to shoot - you can clear the civilians and arrange the vipers, but you can't touch the Cylons (they're over on their own board).

My thought is that, since you're choosing to confront the enemy, you can arrange the human military ships as you choose ready for the enemy fleet to catch up...


Yeah but you can still clear ALL the civilians...


If you clear ALL the civilians, you're asking to get mauled by Raiders.

Thematically, I prefer the idea of facing the Cylon Fleet you've built up over the game rather than a random one that happens to appear.

I also like the idea of being able to arrange your Vipers to suit (or at least launch all the birds you have left) rather than launching one viper and escorting away 3 civvies (in addition to the two the card clears) from the pack outside the launch tubes...

I'm just not seeing an argument for launching more than 1 unmanned viper with your version, which, while it may reflect strong gameplay, is thematically lousy...
 
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David Turczi
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Anybody else want to chime in on what should Stay and Fight do with the civs?
 
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Daniel Loke
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Quote:
Thematically, I prefer the idea of facing the Cylon Fleet you've built up over the game rather than a random one that happens to appear.

I also like the idea of being able to arrange your Vipers to suit (or at least launch all the birds you have left) rather than launching one viper and escorting away 3 civvies (in addition to the two the card clears) from the pack outside the launch tubes...


This. For a card called "Stand and Fight", space shouldn't rearrange itself.

Something like "Don't rearrange space. Then, if there are no basestars in play, place one somewhere."

Also,


PLEASE??
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David Turczi
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Laugh as much as you'd like, but we used this card for the destination template
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Daniel Loke
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I'm actually semi-serious, it would go great in funny games like LOLCATS in Space. But it would be too anti-thematic for a regular game. All you'd have to do is make it -3 Fuel and I think it'd be playable.
 
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Matt Vollick
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2 distance for 3 fuel is really tough. There are some situations you could pull it off but if you've taken the destinations that add fuel you haven't traveled very far so you're looking at more jumps to finish the game.
 
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Daniel Loke
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I'm compensating for the gain 2 morale, which is a pretty big boon. What about:

Puppy Planet: -2 Fuel, 2 Distance

Admiral Chooses:
+2 Morale, -1 Food (gotta feed the puppies) OR
-1 Morale, +1 Food
 
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Here are my thoughts on the cards and mechanics presented. I'm breaking them up into multiple posts, as my response is rather long.

Faith skill cards
My first note is how they are dealt out at the beginning of the game. I think it seems odd to change starting hands like this – the first player now only gets 1 more card than the rest. The second player, by contrast, gets dealt 9 cards in the first two turns of the game; almost two full hands. What is your reasoning behind not allowing the first player to draw a faith card?

Higher Power
I find this one to be a bit odd, as it has 2 abilities on it. I realize that the second ability is for the Cylons, as that is the only way to make this card reliably useful – normally, it’s a guaranteed positive. I just find it clunky.

Random idea: What if this card, as its secondary action, drew the top card of the Destiny deck? That’d be rather ‘faith-based’ and it lets people muck around with card counting (which is always a personal pet peeve of mine). Granted, this idea does nothing about the double ability of the card, just wanted to throw out an idea.

If I get a good idea how to eliminate the double-action on this card while still making it useful for Cylons, I’ll let you know.

Touch Their Souls
Title issue: ‘Their’ should be capitalized. Only conjunctions and prepositions aren’t capitalized – ‘their’ is a pronoun. Also, I think the proper wording should be:

Movement or Action: Choose any other player. He discards 2 Skill Cards and then draws 2 Skill Cards of your choice. They may be from outside his skill set. Treachery cards discarded is not added to the Destiny deck.

(Pronoun use on these cards always defers to ‘He’ rather than ‘That player’. I know, it’s not gender neutral… but it’s at least consistent.)

I don’t know why this card also allows you to draw another faith card. I don’t think it needs it. If you want it, I’d give it its own hard return. You should have room with the above text modifications.

Guide Them to Their Destiny
Title issue: The only word not capitalized is ‘to’. The wording should be:

“Play before cards are added to a Skill check. Look at the top two cards of the Destiny deck.”

(See Investigative Committee skill card and Consult the Oracle quorum card)

Despite Their Differences
Title issue: Capitalize ‘Their’.

Movement or Action: Choose both a Human and a Cylon player. Both players draw 2 Skill cards. They may come from outside their skill sets. You may then draw another faith card. You may not play this card if there are no Cylons in play.

The restriction should maybe just be a note in the rules, if it doesn’t fit on the card.

Godsent
Love it. Keep it. Don’t ever change.

Blind Faith
This one’s my least favorite, simply because it’s a redux of Higher Power. The trigger powers are too-easily reached, IMHO. Fail by 4 is thrown into any check that is flat-out tanked. Pass by 4 means that you need to pass the check without this card.

How about another version of Declare Emergency?

“Play after strength is totaled in a skill check to play the top card of the faith deck into the skill check; that card counts as positive strength. Limit of 1 “Blind Faith” card used per skill check.”

OR

“Play after strength is totaled in a skill check to play a faith card from your hand into the skill check; that card counts as positive strength. Limit of 1 “Blind Faith” card used per skill check.”

As a side note, what happens if you have a Red Tape and your original 5-Blind Faith in the same skill check?

Prayer Heard
I don’t have any problems with this one, but take out the ‘may’ part – drawing Skill cards doesn’t need to be optional.

Leap of Faith
I know I talked you down to this version earlier, but now the title and picture seem in contrary to the game text. I feel it should be:

“Decrease all resources by 1 to increase the Jump Preparation track by 2.”

I don’t have a problem with the current card as is, it just seems backwards to me.
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Destinations
I’ll start out by admitting I’m not a huge fan of this set of cards. Here’s my take on them:

Site of a Battle
I hate this title. It sounds so generic. And, the text should be:

“Lose 1 fuel, gain 1 morale, and destroy 1 raptor.”

Looking at the other 1-distance jumps, I think this one may be significantly worse than those. I don’t think you need the raptor destruction to balance it out.

Home of the Thirteenth
By contract, I love this title! The text is missing an ‘and’. It should be:

“Lose 2 fuel, 1 food, and 1 morale. Every player draws 2 faith Skill cards.”

Comet at a Gas Giant
Gas Giant is already a title, and a comet isn’t really a destination (as it’s moving). The shuffle-into-Destiny is interesting… but I don’t really know what I’d add. It really just depletes a card from my hand into the Destiny deck where I’d assume it would be negative later. To be honest, I’m not a huge fan of this one, but I have no arguments against it.

Stay and Fight
I see what you’re trying to do with this one, but it seems rather messy. How about:

“Do not remove ships from the main game board and decrease the Jump Preparation track by 1."

The only issue with this is that it circumvents the rules’ order of Jumping the Fleet (base, p13). But, this basically negates the jump, forcing the fleet to endure at least one more turn with the current board position.

The Hub
Ugh. No more Super Crisis cards? Seems too harsh. How about:

- Cylons cannot play Super Crisis cards until the fleet jumps.
- Cylons cannot play Super Crisis cards unless there is a basestar on the main game board.
- The Admiral may look at the top card of the Super Crisis deck and place it on the top or the bottom.

I like the third one best, as it doesn’t create an ongoing effect on a destination. Normally, we bury the destinations under the Objective card, only displaying the distance traveled.
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"Prove Faith" Crisis cards
Again, the mechanic seems a bit forced – if it was me playing with these, I’d hoard as many faith cards as I could for these Crisis cards. Seems a bit contrary to the goal of adding a new deck – to play with the cards! There are only 5 Consequence crisis cards in the printed game, and their effects are:

- The current player chooses another player to send to “Sickbay.” (Divisive Behavior & In the Ring)
- The current player gives any Title Cards he has to the player (aside from himself) highest on the Line of Succession. (Haunted by the Past)
- Damage Galactica once. (Power Failure)
- Basestars Fire (Threat of Super Nova)

None of these deal with resources (except Power Failure in a secondary way).

I’m also not set on the threshold for the trigger – perhaps the threshold is set for each crisis separately? Just add it as a number on the icon.

Lastly, I wonder if what is printed shouldn’t be the reward for playing faith into the check, rather than the penalty for not playing faith into the check.

I started to review these, but I’m going to wait as I’m just not convinced this is a good mechanic. It seems to penalize players for playing their faith in other skill checks which I don’t think is your actual intent.

Super Crises Cards
Facing the Impossible
This is a very intriguing idea, but it forces the check to only Blue, Brown, and Gray (provided you play the correct cards). I go back and forth with the difficulty of this one. I want it lower, but it is a Super Crisis card. I could see a set of humans with no response to it, simply because they do not have one of the 7 Scientific Research cards, one of the 2 At Any Cost cards, and one of the many Higher Power cards to make this check possible.

Frak Earth
I love this one too. I have no suggestions outside of the “Prove Faith” mechanic, which I discussed above.
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Quorum Cards
Legislate Abortions
The text should read as follows:

Action: Draw 1 leadership and 1 treachery card. Then either lose 1 population and gain 1 morale OR lose 1 morale and gain 1 population. Remove this card from the game.”

Note that ‘leadership’ and ‘treachery’ should be lowercase.

Master Your Own Fate
Title: Capitalize “Your”
This one ends up being just an early-game Political Prowess or late-game Scout for Fuel dig. Not a huge fan of this one, as it does escalate the President’s power (especially with Political Prowess).

Endorse Religious Leader
The text should read as follows:

Action: Draw 2 faith cards and give this card to any other player.

Keep this card in play. Whenever this player draws a faith card during his Movement phase, he may draw 2 (instead of 1).”

No need for the ‘Discard this card if…’ part. That’s always done for Quorum cards that attach themselves.
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Atomic Robo
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For the love of god could we please change the name to Legislate Social Decisions. It's current name is highly offensive to some people. (Myself included.)
 
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Daniel Loke
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What other names are there for abortions? It's not a bad term at all. Just because the issue is controversial doesn't mean the name is.
 
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LL6869 wrote:
For the love of god could we please change the name to Legislate Social Decisions. It's current name is highly offensive to some people. (Myself included.)
I didn't directly comment on this, as I really have no stake in this issue. It is a topic directly addressed in the show on two separate occasions (once with Boomer and once with Roslin), using the word 'Abortion' both times. I think the card captures a very central topic in a few episodes of early BSG in a clean and elegant manner.

How about "Reevaluate Rights"? I think the BSG quote on the card can continue to convey the connection to the series without "Abortion" in the title.
 
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Jan Itor
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schmloof wrote:
What other names are there for abortions? It's not a bad term at all. Just because the issue is controversial doesn't mean the name is.


It may be different overseas/abroad, however in America it is a highly charged word. If you utter it aloud there is a high chance of controversy ensuing. It is not exactly a part of our culture I am overly fond of, but it is on the list of topics/words that provoke such a response. Now in a very international setting , such as bgg, it may be possible to actually carry on a civil conversation on the matter. I wouldn't try myself but it might be possible in theory.

It was a theme of the show, but I am not opposed to rewording it. Think of this: once Tdaver's unoffical modifications are compiled into a set and others start to use it on occasion, isn't it possible it might work it's way into a crowd of people that is not know here. I think it should be worded as if the intended user was an unknown individual and not a bgg regular that might appreciate the flavor.
 
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David Turczi
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I've heard LL6869's request earlier that it was controversial, discussed it with girlfriend when designing the card, and we came up with a regarding why it would be controversial. I didn't take into consideration, the so called "american conservative" view, reading the news I can see how that would be a problem there. If it is really bad, I'm willing to change the card title, but I specifically want to keep the effect, and possibly the quote - and as Ripshawd said it - the show DID touch the issue. I like "Reevaluate Rights" quite so much, I'll fly with that if we can agree...
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David Turczi
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On another note what are other people's thoughts regarding Ripshawd's opinion on the "Prove Faith" thingie?
Ripshawd wrote:
...
None of these deal with resources (except Power Failure in a secondary way).

I’m also not set on the threshold for the trigger – perhaps the threshold is set for each crisis separately? Just add it as a number on the icon.

Lastly, I wonder if what is printed shouldn’t be the reward for playing faith into the check, rather than the penalty for not playing faith into the check.
 
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Jan Itor
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TDaver wrote:
I've heard LL6869's request earlier that it was controversial, discussed it with girlfriend when designing the card, and we came up with a regarding why it would be controversial. I didn't take into consideration, the so called "american conservative" view, reading the news I can see how that would be a problem there. If it is really bad, I'm willing to change the card title, but I specifically want to keep the effect, and possibly the quote - and as Ripshawd said it - the show DID touch the issue. I like "Reevaluate Rights" quite so much, I'll fly with that if we can agree...




I think the quote and effect are fine. The name is only going to be an issue in some spheres. It depends on who your target audience is. There have been a few controversy's here lately, but i don't know that they would get distributed on the major international new sites, or at least i doubt they would get distributed with the same gusto.

There is an old custom here to never talk about religion or politics in areas where you want to be civil. I suspect the reason that abortion is such an intense issue is because it involves both.
 
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David Turczi
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Valen200 wrote:
TDaver wrote:
I've heard LL6869's request earlier that it was controversial, discussed it with girlfriend when designing the card, and we came up with a regarding why it would be controversial. I didn't take into consideration, the so called "american conservative" view, reading the news I can see how that would be a problem there. If it is really bad, I'm willing to change the card title, but I specifically want to keep the effect, and possibly the quote - and as Ripshawd said it - the show DID touch the issue. I like "Reevaluate Rights" quite so much, I'll fly with that if we can agree...




I think the quote and effect are fine. The name is only going to be an issue in some spheres. It depends on who your target audience is. There have been a few controversy's here lately, but i don't know that they would get distributed on the major international new sites, or at least i doubt they would get distributed with the same gusto.

There is an old custom here to never talk about religion or politics in areas where you want to be civil. I suspect the reason that abortion is such an intense issue is because it involves both.


See, that's the problem. For me it involves neither Consider the title changed.

(yeah I bolded...)
 
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Daniel Loke
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Sorry for keeping on this but just to be clear is the term itself controversial? Or the underlying issue?

I know it's still a big deal in the States but I didn't think just mentioning it would cause harm.

If the term itself isn't the source of controversy, I'd prefer "Legislate Abortions". It's what they use on the show, and what most of the world uses. Giving it a euphemism won't change its meaning. And the card doesn't say "ban" or "allow" abortions. It's actually quite neutral.

I guess if it causes genuine distress among people I could live with "Reevaluate Rights". But that's really vague and I don't feel is true to the show.
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Jan Itor
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schmloof wrote:
Sorry for keeping on this but just to be clear is the term itself controversial? Or the underlying issue?

I know it's still a big deal in the States but I didn't think just mentioning it would cause harm.

If the term itself isn't the source of controversy, I'd prefer "Legislate Abortions". It's what they use on the show, and what most of the world uses. Giving it a euphemism won't change its meaning. And the card doesn't say "ban" or "allow" abortions. It's actually quite neutral.

I guess if it causes genuine distress among people I could live with "Reevaluate Rights". But that's really vague and I don't feel is true to the show.


Separating the meaning of a word and the reaction the word provokes is difficult. If I say the word "cold" is your reaction based on the dictionary definition or do you picture something cold as part of your reaction to the word. And things can get further complicated by different frames of references. The concept of "cold" in a jungle, a desert, a temperate forest, and a glacier may be very different. The meaning evokes a reaction based on your past experiences. Here, the word "abortion" is not one that inspires civility. We have decades of ongoing (and contentious) legal and religious battles. I can actually recall when I was 11-2ish and I first sat and really thought on the issue. Do people in other countries really have the same experiences to the subject if their culture and history or different. The word may simply have a different meaning here, but I can't say that I am well enough versed on international abortion debates to know exactly how it is viewed around the world.

I can see the argument that a rewording does not capture the essence of the show, however i think a lot fo the cards have generic names that only really hint at the real flavor.
 
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Daniel Loke
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Question:

Do you think there are atheists or agnostics that are currently playing with Faith? There are at least 15 people currently involved in Faith, and undoubtedly there are some who do not believe in a higher power.

Faith is such a big part of the show, too. If these people can put aside their thoughts and play the game that's thematically based on the show, then I think there's no reason for a small subset of the community to do the same for a single card.

My main point is: this game is based on theme, and we should understand that by playing this game, we are immersing ourselves in this theme. We don't have to agree with everything in said theme, but to play the game is to play in its principles.

So if mentioning religion and politics is such a big deal, why can we have an entire Faith deck, an entire Politics deck, suicide, capital punishment, terrorism, religious extremism, prophets, murderers, genocide, military coups, and so on and so on, BUT we can't have a single mention of the word "Abortions"?
 
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Battlestar Galactica: Exodus Expansion » Forums » Variants
Re: Building a seventh skill card deck
schmloof wrote:
Question:

Do you think there are atheists or agnostics that are currently playing with Faith? There are at least 15 people currently involved in Faith, and undoubtedly there are some who do not believe in a higher power.

Faith is such a big part of the show, too. If these people can put aside their thoughts and play the game that's thematically based on the show, then I think there's no reason for a small subset of the community to do the same for a single card.

My main point is: this game is based on theme, and we should understand that by playing this game, we are immersing ourselves in this theme. We don't have to agree with everything in said theme, but to play the game is to play in its principles.

So if mentioning religion and politics is such a big deal, why can we have an entire Faith deck, an entire Politics deck, suicide, capital punishment, terrorism, religious extremism, prophets, murderers, genocide, military coups, and so on and so on, BUT we can't have a single mention of the word "Abortions"?



I would be one of those people in a faith game that isn't particularly religious. I don't particularly dwell on any of the issues that the game touches on. It's just a game, and has no particular connotation to me. I am not even particularly offended by the word abortion, I simply see how it is an issue that can be divisive. I am more put off by the shows handling of some of the mentioned issues than the boardgame's. handling of the subject matter.

Also, the board game tries to balance theme, mechanics, and overall play experience. This is something that different localizations of the game might handle differently. The American card might read with the revised rulings and other countries might have titles closer to legislate abortions. I would rather the game be mechanically sound first, fun second, and thematic third. My particular concern is that ,yes, because of the idiosyncrasies of my culture you might offend people with he word "abortion" and have virtually no reaction to the other things you listed.

My advice is based on the fact that Tdaver has expressed an interest in collect it and distributing it as a fan set. If he wants a better chance at it clicking with americans I think it would be wise to tone down the card. If he doesn't really care who the audience is in particular, or would prefer an international following, he can keep it as is.

If you would rather focus on theme when making variants, there is nothing wrong with that. I just think that one of the reasons that some of the themes are mentioned obliquely in the game is due to this reason.


 
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Just to weigh in again with a little extra perspective. As an example, several states in America have passed or are trying to pass 'personhood' laws. These laws define any egg that has been fertilized as legally being a person. Therefor anything that terminates that life at any stage is considered murder.

This is an end run around Roe v Wade. On a personal level, this deeply offends me, as it directly contradicts established law and my own personal feelings on the matter. When I see the word Abortion, these are the things that go through my mind right now. They fill me with something very close to rage, as it's a horrible issue that I've had to face myself in the past and had to make very personal choices about.

However, for other Americans (and I'm sure other people abroad) they can see that word and be enraged that people are legally allowed to kill babies. There is little room within either camp for positive or indifferent feelings whenever you see this word.

I also am completely fine with the text and flavor text. That places it within a context within the show.

And also, all but the most hardened Atheists or Fundamentalists will accept Faith cards. For one thing, Faith is a terribly personal matter, it's caused problems in the past but it's listed as 'Faith' not 'Religion.' And in the context of the show itself the religion is not only completely fabricated, but within the world of the story it's quite real, important and in fact based on some sort of fact itself.

But that's just my view.
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