Recommend
21 
 Thumb up
 Hide
36 Posts
Prev «  1 , 2  | 

Wargames» Forums » General

Subject: Strategic Command & Control Complexities and the Crop of Ost Front Games rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Bill Lawson
United States
Rutland
Vermont
flag msg tools
New England Patriots
badge
http://thegamebox.gamesontables.com/index.php
mbmbmb
Cleitus the Black wrote:
bentlarsen wrote:
I remember reading--not Osprey, what was it?--a book on the Barbarossa campaign back in the 1970's which mentioned the indecision.


Alan Clark's Barbarossa?




I've read just about everything there is to read on the Eastfront and Alan Clark's has to be the absolute worst!
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Dorosh
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Tactical Wargamer's Journal
mbmbmbmbmb
bentlarsen wrote:
Gadzooks! The series of books I remember was published by Ballantine books. Do you remember those? Like Geoffrey Jukes, "Stalingrad: the turning point," and "Barbarossa: invasion of Russia, 1941," by John Keegan.

The Keegan book is the one, if I remember correctly (and given my memory difficulties in pulling up the file on Ballantine, all bets are off) that referred to the infighting among the German generals over the direction of the campaign.

The Ballantine series was an affordable option for the wargamer who could only afford the likes of AH's Battle of the Bulge, Afrika Korps and their kin. People like me.

goo



I'm still trying to fill out my collection of Ballantine books. The maps are ok, if one knows enough to correct the inaccuracies.

Alan Clark's books, like the Ballantyne series, were written before the Soviet archives opened up, and some of the really early books (like Clark's) were written before historians knew about ENIGMA.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Severus Snape
Canada
flag msg tools
"So teach us to number our days, that we may get us an heart of wisdom." Psalm 90:12 RV
badge
"I'm not allowed to say how many planes joined the raid, but I counted them all out and I counted them all back." Brian Hanrahan
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, it is not a surprise that we went from games to a "book talk." Any more ideas on the original question? How do you imagine it abstracted into your Ost front gaming experiences?

goo

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Severus Snape
Canada
flag msg tools
"So teach us to number our days, that we may get us an heart of wisdom." Psalm 90:12 RV
badge
"I'm not allowed to say how many planes joined the raid, but I counted them all out and I counted them all back." Brian Hanrahan
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
I've read just about everything there is to read on the Eastfront and Alan Clark's has to be the absolute worst!


I agree with you, but it was one of the few things published in English a long time back. And they still reprint this toilet paper! gulp

goo
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt D
United States
Mountain View
California
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
bentlarsen wrote:
Quote:
I've read just about everything there is to read on the Eastfront and Alan Clark's has to be the absolute worst!


I agree with you, but it was one of the few things published in English a long time back. And they still reprint this toilet paper! :gulp:

:goo:


I'm curious (it's on my shelf but never read, just acquired during one of my fits of historical purchasing) why is it the worst?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cpl. Fields
South Africa
Hopelessly Surrounded
Isandlwana, Zululand
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
adorablerocket wrote:
bentlarsen wrote:
Quote:
I've read just about everything there is to read on the Eastfront and Alan Clark's has to be the absolute worst!


I agree with you, but it was one of the few things published in English a long time back. And they still reprint this toilet paper! gulp

goo


I'm curious (it's on my shelf but never read, just acquired ruing one of my fits of historical purchasing) why is it the worst?


I'm curious as well, having read and enjoyed it. Yes, it's hopelessly dated and some of its assumptions are clearly wrong (given what we know now), but I don't know that I'd go so far as to call it "the worst" or "toilet paper". Now, Paul Carrell's Hitler Moves East, on the other hand...
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Wesley
Nepal
Aberdeen
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
mb
__greentrainmeeple__ Leave "it" unto 'moi' and the "Beaver" to bring this BACH! upon 'track' as that's the 'fact' JACK! Europe at War presents you with a wide, assorted, and varied abilities for Leaders and Commanders, with many having specialized functions pertaining to their background. That even gives you the flexibility where these can appear for wherever they hadn't before historically, depending upon your 'strategy' pursued. I dare state that this might become more "Advanced" with the proper procedures instituted as such within it overall.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Severus Snape
Canada
flag msg tools
"So teach us to number our days, that we may get us an heart of wisdom." Psalm 90:12 RV
badge
"I'm not allowed to say how many planes joined the raid, but I counted them all out and I counted them all back." Brian Hanrahan
mbmbmbmbmb
Alan Clark is--was--first and foremost a politician who served in the British government. He was not a professional historian and it shows. His Barbarossa shows his weaknesses and the books age. It is primarily a one-sided approach with, as I remember, a too thin bibliography.

His WWI book, The Donkeys, explores the premise that British leadership--Haig and company--were asses who led millions of men to death in trench warfare. It helped to establish his reputation, and it was a book much in keeping with the spirit of the times with its negative view of how Britain conducted the fighting (average soldier is the lion led by the donkeys like Haig).

I am not a fan of Haig, and I find the recent tomes that attempt to rehabilitate his reputation to be propaganda. But Winter's attack on Haig is like Clark on steroids. Writers like Clark are not interested in exploring complicated issues of truth and falsehood, right and wrong, and the thin gray lines between hero and goat; they are interested in selling books and pushing agendas.

For The Donkeys, go to:

http://www.amazon.com/Donkeys-Alan-Clark/dp/0712650350/ref=s...

goo
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Severus Snape
Canada
flag msg tools
"So teach us to number our days, that we may get us an heart of wisdom." Psalm 90:12 RV
badge
"I'm not allowed to say how many planes joined the raid, but I counted them all out and I counted them all back." Brian Hanrahan
mbmbmbmbmb
Wargames » Forums » General
Re: Strategic Command & Control Complexities and the Crop of Ost Front Games
Quote:
Now, Paul Carrell's Hitler Moves East, on the other hand...


This book and Scorched Earth are undeniably one-sided pieces of propaganda. Clark's book and Carell's titles came out during the Cold War, which perhaps explains some of their enduring popularity.

Carrell strikes me as a 19th century Romantic (I am thinking of the movement and philosophy) writing a history of the Ost Front, complete with a Richard Wagner soundtrack.

I must confess, however, that as a teenager, not knowing any better, I loved the Carell books.

Now I know better, but a lingering nostalgia remains. Ignorance was bliss, and with all the water under the bridge came and went lives lived and lives lost.

goo
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cpl. Fields
South Africa
Hopelessly Surrounded
Isandlwana, Zululand
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
bentlarsen wrote:
Quote:
Now, Paul Carrell's Hitler Moves East, on the other hand...

Carrell strikes me as a 19th century Romantic (I am thinking of the movement and philosophy) writing a history of the Ost Front, complete with a Richard Wagner soundtrack.


I'm not sure about the Romanticism - Carrell's real name was Schmidt, and he was an SS Obersturmbannführer - but you're bang-on with the Wagner.

Quote:
I must confess, however, that as a teenager, not knowing any better, I loved the Carell books.


Me too. They're good reads.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Severus Snape
Canada
flag msg tools
"So teach us to number our days, that we may get us an heart of wisdom." Psalm 90:12 RV
badge
"I'm not allowed to say how many planes joined the raid, but I counted them all out and I counted them all back." Brian Hanrahan
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
Those books were great, and sold for $1 each! These were some of the first 'real' history books I ever read, and I still own my original collection, and have even added to it, via eBay, in recent years. I still read these!


Leo, you have them all?! All of them??!

Might I give you the appropriate information so that you would include me in your will? meeple

goo

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Prev «  1 , 2  | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.