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Subject: Kickstarter question rss

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Jacob Lee
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Does anyone know what will happen with Edo if it doesn't make its goal? Has Queen said if they're going to produce it anyway at a later date? I'd like to get this game, but it hasn't raced to its goal like other kickstarter projects so I'm not sure if it's going to make its $10,000 mark.
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Mathue Faulk
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My complete guess is that it will still be produced...
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Sylvester Stachovicz
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What if I buy the game (may 2012) and the expansion (eta Essen 2012): should I pay twice the shipping costs or they both will be shipped once in october?
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Joe F.
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I wish they would say what is in the expansion, kickstarter has no info on the contents...
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Stefan Malz
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Current plan for the first expansion expected in September:
- Material for the 5th player
- 3 expansion modules

All those expansion modules are currently in their final tests and you'll love them!

Best regards
Stefan Malz
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Jonathan
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I'd be very surprised if this game doesn't get made, regardless of whether it reaches its Kickstarter goal. After all, it's advertised on the publisher's site for a May release.

Rather, I think Queen Games are simply using Kickstarter to maximise their profits (via increased visibility, cutting out retail, and getting us rabid geeks to buy into those lovely bonus pledges). They're not the first and, if the current trend of using Kickstarter in this manner is anything to go by, they won't be the last.
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Evan Stegman
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JJWonderboy wrote:
I'd be very surprised if this game doesn't get made, regardless of whether it reaches its Kickstarter goal. After all, it's advertised on the publisher's site for a May release.

Rather, I think Queen Games are simply using Kickstarter to maximise their profits (via increased visibility, cutting out retail, and getting us rabid geeks to buy into those lovely bonus pledges). They're not the first and, if the current trend of using Kickstarter in this manner is anything to go by, they won't be the last.


I don't even think it's that.

It appears Queen is going to be releasing the game in Europe and it is totally unrelated to the Kickstarter project.

It looks to me like the Kickstarter project has nothing at all to do with the development or production of the game but is just some people down in Dallas looking to get funding to independently distribute the game. Whether or not they are successful wouldn't affect Queen's development or production of the game, it just means it won't be directly distributed in the US via those folks in Dallas. That would mean either it wouldn't get a US distribution or it will have to go a more traditional distribution route (which it probably is going to do anyway).

I could be wrong but that sure is what it looks like from where I am sitting. I am not sure it is quite in the spirit of what Kickstarter was meant to be (i.e., they are not creating anything just offering a pre-order system) but I doubt they are violating any rules.
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Mathue Faulk
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EvanMinn wrote:

It appears Queen is going to be releasing the game in Europe and it is totally unrelated to the Kickstarter project.

It looks to me like the Kickstarter project has nothing at all to do with the development or production of the game but is just some people down in Dallas looking to get funding to independently distribute the game. Whether or not they are successful wouldn't affect Queen's development or production of the game, it just means it won't be directly distributed in the US via those folks in Dallas. That would mean either it wouldn't get a US distribution or it will have to go a more traditional distribution route (which it probably is going to do anyway).

I don't think they would be able to offer some of the pledging bonuses unless it was actually Queen Games (i.e. 2 week guaranteed early release vs street date, plus various other games by Queen Games...)
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Evan Stegman
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mfaulk80 wrote:
EvanMinn wrote:

It appears Queen is going to be releasing the game in Europe and it is totally unrelated to the Kickstarter project.

It looks to me like the Kickstarter project has nothing at all to do with the development or production of the game but is just some people down in Dallas looking to get funding to independently distribute the game. Whether or not they are successful wouldn't affect Queen's development or production of the game, it just means it won't be directly distributed in the US via those folks in Dallas. That would mean either it wouldn't get a US distribution or it will have to go a more traditional distribution route (which it probably is going to do anyway).

I don't think they would be able to offer some of the pledging bonuses unless it was actually Queen Games (i.e. 2 week guaranteed early release vs street date, plus various other games by Queen Games...)


Right. That's what I am saying. That they have some sort of deal with Queen to take pre-orders and give out promos but even if the Kickstarter failed, the game would still be produced by Queen and would still be available through normal channels. It's just a pre-order system. I.e., it is not related to the creative or production side of things not that it is not related to Queen at all.

The fact that it is availabe to pre-order at online sites would seem to bear this out:

http://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/Board%20Games/Edo+Board+Game#E... Board Game

http://www.boardsandbits.com/product_info.php?products_id=24...

This is not like other Kickstarter projects where they are trying to get money to produce the game and if it fails, it won't be produced. This game would be available regardless of whether the project succeeds or fails (which is what the OP was asking about).
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Markus Benz
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They would rather have published this sooner in order to meet the appropiate time limit for the nominations "Kennerspiel des Jahres". That would have raised the profits even more than funding via kickstarter. Probably they now will miss the time limit to be nominated. Bad strategy unfortunately. After reading the rules I got the impression it would have been worth this award.....Greetings bpsyc
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Sylvester Stachovicz
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Mr. Malz, can you answer my question from a few days ago?
What if I kickstart two-pack: the game and the expansion: should I pay twice the shipping costs or they both will be shipped once in september?
Thank you
Sylvester
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Bruce Murphy
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A point you might have overlooking is that Kickstarter is currently only available to US entities, which means Queen would be forced to create one in order to do this. That's a plausible source for 'the games guys in Dallas'. Note also that Queen just signed a US distribution deal.

Given how badly Queen's production schedule was messed up by the Scheer mess (we're only just now seeing games delayed from 2010!), the idea that kickstarter funding gives them the up-front capital they need to get games out faster seems completely reasonable.

B>
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Stefan Malz
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Hello Sylvester,

Unfortunately I cannot answer your question since I am "only" the auther of Edo and not involved in Queen Games' distribution and marketing.

I will, however, forward your question to my contact at Queen Games and get back to you when I receive an answer.

(From the wording of the Kickstarter texts I would assume that you only have to pay those 15$ once for still getting them separately, but like I said: I don't know for sure.)

Best regards
Stefan Malz
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Michael Klein
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You do know who "those folks in Dallas" are?

I can give you a hint: If you back the project, your money goes to

"Authorization summary:
---------------------
Recipient: Kickstarter, BoardGameGeek, LLC"


mfaulk80 wrote:
EvanMinn wrote:

It appears Queen is going to be releasing the game in Europe and it is totally unrelated to the Kickstarter project.

It looks to me like the Kickstarter project has nothing at all to do with the development or production of the game but is just some people down in Dallas looking to get funding to independently distribute the game. Whether or not they are successful wouldn't affect Queen's development or production of the game, it just means it won't be directly distributed in the US via those folks in Dallas. That would mean either it wouldn't get a US distribution or it will have to go a more traditional distribution route (which it probably is going to do anyway).

I don't think they would be able to offer some of the pledging bonuses unless it was actually Queen Games (i.e. 2 week guaranteed early release vs street date, plus various other games by Queen Games...)
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Jonathan
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ogrim wrote:
You do know who "those folks in Dallas" are?

I can give you a hint: If you back the project, your money goes to

"Authorization summary:
---------------------
Recipient: Kickstarter, BoardGameGeek, LLC"


Hmmm... If that's the case then I'm not very impressed. I was always under the impression that BGG was an impartial site. Having a financial interest in the success of one or more specific games seem... I don't know... disingenuous? Surely this site's integrity should be paramount?

Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of Queen Games, like the look of Edo and obviously a massive BGG addict, but this just seems off.
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Bruce Murphy
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Or, they're helpfully providing the US presence that Kickstarter requires. As to the success of specific games, have you forgotten the BGG game already?

B>
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Evan Stegman
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thepackrat wrote:
..
Given how badly Queen's production schedule was messed up by the Scheer mess (we're only just now seeing games delayed from 2010!), the idea that kickstarter funding gives them the up-front capital they need to get games out faster seems completely reasonable. ...


I don't see any evidence that the money has anything to do with making it come faster. It is coming in April/May regardless of what happens with this Kickstarter project. If that's the schedule, all the orders have already been made at the printers and this is not capital to place orders or get them made faster.

It appears to be just a pre-order system for a game that is coming out regardless of Kickstarter in direct competition with games that actually need the money or they won't get made.
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Evan Stegman
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ogrim wrote:
You do know who "those folks in Dallas" are?

I can give you a hint: If you back the project, your money goes to

"Authorization summary:
---------------------
Recipient: Kickstarter, BoardGameGeek, LLC"



If it is BGG behind this, someone was blinded by the dollars to be made and didn't think it through.

Those online stores are BGG's ad space customers and if I were one of them, I would not be happy that the entity I am buying ads from is not only in direct competition with my sales but gets all the most expensive ads possibly for free (or at least low risk).

And it is in direct competition with other Kickstarter projects that are trying to get games made and buy ads.
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Bruce Murphy
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EvanMinn wrote:
thepackrat wrote:
..
Given how badly Queen's production schedule was messed up by the Scheer mess (we're only just now seeing games delayed from 2010!), the idea that kickstarter funding gives them the up-front capital they need to get games out faster seems completely reasonable. ...


I don't see any evidence that the money has anything to do with making it come faster. It is coming in April/May regardless of what happens with this Kickstarter project. If that's the schedule, all the orders have already been made at the printers and this is not capital to place orders or get them made faster.

It appears to be just a pre-order system for a game that is coming out regardless of Kickstarter in direct competition with games that actually need the money or they won't get made.


Except that Queen have finite amounts of cash and getting a chunk of their production costs up front for Edo mean that they don't need wait for lots of copies of Edo to be sold before they can go onto their next game. They're still catching up on previously announced games, so this looks to be a good thing.


B>
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Evan Stegman
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thepackrat wrote:
EvanMinn wrote:
thepackrat wrote:
..
Given how badly Queen's production schedule was messed up by the Scheer mess (we're only just now seeing games delayed from 2010!), the idea that kickstarter funding gives them the up-front capital they need to get games out faster seems completely reasonable. ...


I don't see any evidence that the money has anything to do with making it come faster. It is coming in April/May regardless of what happens with this Kickstarter project. If that's the schedule, all the orders have already been made at the printers and this is not capital to place orders or get them made faster.

It appears to be just a pre-order system for a game that is coming out regardless of Kickstarter in direct competition with games that actually need the money or they won't get made.


Except that Queen have finite amounts of cash and getting a chunk of their production costs up front for Edo mean that they don't need wait for lots of copies of Edo to be sold before they can go onto their next game. They're still catching up on previously announced games, so this looks to be a good thing.


B>


You are missing the point: there is no evidence they are getting the money any faster than from any other distributer/reseller preselling the game. I am not sure where you are getting that from. Note that although it has the Queen name on it, the money goes to a different company first. It does NOT go directly to Queen.

Given the game's schedule for release and the end time of the project, it doesn't really seem possible that Queen is getting money from this Kickstarter project any sooner than they are from any other distributers/resellers offering preorders.
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Jonathan
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Edo » Forums » General
Re: Kickstarter question
thepackrat wrote:
Or, they're helpfully providing the US presence that Kickstarter requires. As to the success of specific games, have you forgotten the BGG game already?

B>


True, that could be the case.

With regards to the BGG game, I'd say it's pretty obvious that they were behind it, no more so than it's available on the BGG Store and has their name on it.
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Bruce Murphy
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JJWonderboy wrote:
thepackrat wrote:
Or, they're helpfully providing the US presence that Kickstarter requires. As to the success of specific games, have you forgotten the BGG game already?

B>


True, that could be the case.

With regards to the BGG game, I'd say it's pretty obvious that they were behind it, no more so than it's available on the BGG Store and has their name on it.


So what did you mean by "Having a financial interest in the success of one or more specific games seem... I don't know... disingenuous? Surely this site's integrity should be paramount?"

Perhaps someone who is on speaking terms with the people who run BGG could go digging. This is either BGG doing some shady fundraising, or doing Queen a favour to get access to US-only kickstarter. We can't really tell at this point.

B>
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Bruce Murphy
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EvanMinn wrote:

You are missing the point: there is no evidence they are getting the money any faster than from any other distributer/reseller preselling the game.


Oh? Kickstarter coughs up the money about a week after close date. Game stores that order copies of the game are going to be paying up... perhaps 30 days after the games are delivered. That's a big difference. Further, sales through normal distribution channels leak money to all the tiers, direct Kickstarter gives you 90+% of the money, so it's more efficient, too.

In addition, (and I suspect this is the motivation) if you happen to stumble across one of the kickstarter goldmines, you can hit your funding goal many times over (3x so far for escape), and once you pass your basic production costs, the rest is profit.

Quote:

I am not sure where you are getting that from. Note that although it has the Queen name on it, the money goes to a different company first. It does NOT go directly to Queen.

As I've pointed out three times, only US entities can use Kickstarter, although there are promises from them that they'll be launching internationally any day now (It could possibly be a function of the new IRS regulations that require an SSN to keep an amazon payments account)

As such, what is your basis for the belief that something nefarious is going on here?
Quote:

Given the game's schedule for release and the end time of the project, it doesn't really seem possible that Queen is getting money from this Kickstarter project any sooner than they are from any other distributers/resellers offering preorders.


Project ends APril 23rd, money paid perhaps on the 30th. Sales through distribution channels (assuming they make the end-of-june date) would trickle back to Queen months after Kickstarter would with far higher margins. You also suggest that there would be lots of preordering of Queen titles. I don't see them having such a wide US distribution right now (although this might change with the new distribution partnership)

B>
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Evan Stegman
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thepackrat wrote:
EvanMinn wrote:

You are missing the point: there is no evidence they are getting the money any faster than from any other distributer/reseller preselling the game.


Oh? Kickstarter coughs up the money about a week after close date.


But it is not giving it directly to Queen. You have no way of knowing how long the BGG LLC will hold onto the money before they send dime one to Queen. Maybe its right away, maybe its the same as other distributors: when their order is officially placed. There is no way to know anything except that Queen will not be getting the money directly from Kickstarter.

Quote:
Game stores that order copies of the game are going to be paying up... perhaps 30 days after the games are delivered. That's a big difference. Further, sales through normal distribution channels leak money to all the tiers, direct Kickstarter gives you 90+% of the money, so it's more efficient, too.


Are you seriously suggesting the people behind the project are not going to get a cut? That they're simply doing this out of the kindess of their heart and are not going to be making any money off of it? That's pretty naive.

Quote:
In addition, (and I suspect this is the motivation) if you happen to stumble across one of the kickstarter goldmines, you can hit your funding goal many times over (3x so far for escape), and once you pass your basic production costs, the rest is profit.


True of any preorders; Kickstarter or not. It is just leveraging the Kickstarter name and model.

Quote:
Quote:

I am not sure where you are getting that from. Note that although it has the Queen name on it, the money goes to a different company first. It does NOT go directly to Queen.

As I've pointed out three times, only US entities can use Kickstarter, although there are promises from them that they'll be launching internationally any day now (It could possibly be a function of the new IRS regulations that require an SSN to keep an amazon payments account)

As such, what is your basis for the belief that something nefarious is going on here?


Nothing nefarious just realistic: it looks like someone worked out a favorably distribution deal with Queen and is selling preorders. That's it. It is not money going directly to Queen and it is not money that needs to be raised otherwise the game won't be produced (like other Kickstarter projects).

It is not nefarious just not quite what Kickstarter was meant for. It is not someone trying to raise funds for a game that wouldn't be produced otherwise and is, in fact, directly competing with those types of projects for Kickstarter supporters' dollars.

That's not nefarious so much as just questionable as it appears to be BoardGameGeek LLC running the project and they are directly competing with the people they sell ads too. Not something most ad buyers like to see.

Quote:
Quote:

Given the game's schedule for release and the end time of the project, it doesn't really seem possible that Queen is getting money from this Kickstarter project any sooner than they are from any other distributers/resellers offering preorders.


Project ends APril 23rd, money paid perhaps on the 30th. Sales through distribution channels (assuming they make the end-of-june date) would trickle back to Queen months after Kickstarter would with far higher margins.


You don't know that. You have know way of knowing when Queen will see the money nor how much BGG LLC's cut will be. For all you know, Queen will see the money at the same time as other distributor's and have the same sort of margin built in.

Quote:
You also suggest that there would be lots of preordering of Queen titles. I don't see them having such a wide US distribution right now (although this might change with the new distribution partnership)



I am not suggesting any such thing. I am just pointing out that this project directly competes with the same people BGG sells ads to: other Kickstarter projects and online merchants who are also currently offering preorder sales.

The bottom line is there is no way to really know what deal has been made.

Maybe you are right and everyone behind the Kickstarter project is donating their time and effort for nothing and will immediately turn the money over to Queen without taking a cut beyond Kickstarter's cut.

But maybe not. Maybe this is just someone who worked out a deal with Queen to use their name and the Kickstarter name and model to make a buck in direct competition with they people they sell ads to.

There is no way to know for sure but appearances matter. And the appearance of this raises some questions that I don't claim to have all the answers to but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be asked.
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Jonathan
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thepackrat wrote:


So what did you mean by "Having a financial interest in the success of one or more specific games seem... I don't know... disingenuous? Surely this site's integrity should be paramount?"


I'm sorry but surely I'm not the only one that sees the difference between the funding and subsequent selling of a game call "The BGG game" by BGG and the more discrete and indirect promotion, funding and distribution of a game from a separate publisher (if that is in fact the case).

Like you say, I could be wrong and it could simply be an act of helping Queen Games out. Being an American company would allow them to submit the game to Kickstarter on Queen's behalf. A noble gesture to a publisher in need.

Either way, to me, the key here should be the transparent communication with the community. Something that is extremely important and something that BGG is normally very good at.
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