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Subject: Rebalancing the Investigators and creating some new ones rss

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Mansions of Madness » Forums » Variants
Rebalancing the Investigators and creating some new ones
I've had this idea in my head for some time now, but the massive power-outage caused by the July Dereco gave me the free time I needed to work it out.

When I first opened my Mansions set, I immediately noticed that the investigators were a bit different from their Arkham counterparts. For example, why was Gloria's health so low? In Arkham, Sister Mary had the lower stamina! Things like that.

I set about re-balancing the Mansions characters so they were fair, but also so that I could add in new investigators.

If you want to skip the further background story of how and why I fell upon stats the way I did, then just jump to the download page:

Revised Investigator Stats and 8 Custom Investigators



Here are more details on my stats formulas.
First I gathered up the characters 'Arkham Horror stats. When I refer to a character's stat, I'm talking about the lowest possible position on that slider. That is, each Arkham stat ranges from 0 to 3.

Health
This is double the Arkham investigator's stamina. Since this won't yield odd numbers, I added or subtracted 1 as I saw fit for the character.

Sanity
This is double the Arkham investigator's sanity, again plus or minus 1. Health and Sanity are supposed to add to 20.

Skill Tokens
This is the investigator's Focus plus Clues.

Base Strength
This is the investigator's Stamina plus Fight, minus 1.

Base Marksmanship
This is the investigator's Focus plus Fight, plus 2.

Base Dexterity
This is the investigator's Speed plus Sneak, plus 3.

Base Intellect
This is the investigator's Focus plus Lore, plus half his total Sanity and Clues (round down), minus 1. The reason this came out so complicated is that I wanted both Amanda and Kate to have reasonably high intellect, without skyrocketing Mary's intellect.

Base Willpower
This is twice the investigator's Will, plus 3.

Base Lore
This is twice the investigator's Lore, plus 3.

Base Luck
This is the investigator's Luck, plus 2.

Additionally, I noticed that characters with a larger health/sanity imbalanced tended to be targeted more often (they're an easier "kill" for some objectives). So I considered characters with 12/8 or 8/12 to be "medium," while 14/6 or 6/14 characters were 2 points weaker, and 10/10 investigators were 2 points stronger.

It's important to note that stats in Mansions aren't all made equal: Willpower is used much more commonly than Lore, for example. So I multiplied each stat by a factor based on the stat's importance:

Strength × 1 (no change)
Marksmanship × 1
Dexterity × 1.25
Intellect × 0.75
Willpower × 1.5
Lore × 0.5

Add all these values together, and you'll get a total for each investigator. The target value should be 30. I got this by taking the median value for each stat (5 for the six above stats, with a "medium" health/sanity balance of 12/8). As expected, characters typically fell above or below this goal, often by many points. The next step was to adjust individual stats based on starting stat abilities.

Each investigator has a stat card that gives them an item (what I call "body" cards) and a stat card that gives a one-time special ability (what I call "mind" cards). Starting items were scored from -2 (Pete's Guitar, or Gloria's Bind Monster) to +2 (Michael's Tommy Gun or Harvey's Shrivelling) and the body cards were adjusted accordingly. Likewise, the one-time special abilities were rated from -2 to +2 and the mind cards were adjusted accordingly.

Finally, Luck times the investigator's starting Skill points, divided by 3, adds some number of extra points. The new target point total is 33.

In the end I had a new set of Mansions stats. But, I went the extra step and designed stat cards for eight new investigators:

Agnes Baker
Akachi Onyele
Daisy Walker
Diana Stanley
Rex Murphy
Tommy Muldoon
Tony Morgan
Ursula Downs


Now the male/female dichotomy is in balance, and so is the sanity/stamina bell curve. All I needed to do was print and cut the cards, and order the specific investigators from FFG.

Here is a link to the document I used to work on the stats, for anyone who's interested:

Arkham Characters to Mansions


Edit: there have been complaints about low Willpower characters. The truth of the matter is that there aren't that many with Willpower lower than 5. The one example cited is that Joe gets his choice between 2 or 3 Willpower. Well, I guess I don't have a better way to say this, but: not everybody can be good at everything. Joe's weakness is his tendency to run low on sanity. He makes up for it with his decent starting items, combat stats, many skill points, and decent Intellect.
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Roberta Yang
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You gave Joe Diamond a Willpower score of 2. You do see the problem with giving half the characters Willpower scores below 5, don't you? (Oh but it's okay because you took a bunch of numbers from a different game with similar flavor text and fed them through an arbitrary formula you made up.)

You've based your work here on the fundamental assumption that "if all the numbers add up to the same total for each investigator (with minor modifications to account for starting items and such), that's what balance is". In other words, you assume all points are equal. You have presupposed that a point in Willpower is no more valuable than a point in Lore (for a non-spellcaster), because they're both worth One Point. Between that and trying to force one game's numbers to correspond exactly to another game's numbers that have totally different functions, and it's small wonder that your "rebalanced" investigators are far more poorly designed than the originals.
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Chick Lewis
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Sorry to hear about the power outage, That must have been a serious hassle for everyone.
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Guillaume Zork
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Although I am, in one hand, extremely happy that new characters are available, I am suspicious about the hypothesis that Arkham stats would be more adequate than Mansions ones.

What if the original mansions stats were better than the Arkham ones ??

As pointed by salty, having a Will of 2 implies that this character will be mad by the half of the game, for sure !

Instead of having a formula that assumes that "Arkham is the truth", I suspect that redesigning the new ones (again, great idea) having Mansions in mind could be a better angle.

Anyway, thank you for sharing your work.
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All right, am I alone in thinking that Roberta's comments have recently rolled over from "constructive" into "insulting"?

As a response to everyone with concerns:

I've playtested these characters and they work well, even Joe.

Yeah, Joe has bad Willpower. One solution is to take his "3 Will" card instead of his "2 Will" card. Another is, of course, to take advantage of his 6 starting skill tokens whenever you have a horror check. Yet another is to accept that Joe is vulnerable to sanity loss and avoid monsters with harder horror modifiers, or play a different character altogether. You could take Pete instead, but his Intellect and Luck aren't that great. There's always a trade-off. This just happens to be Joe's weakness, but that's okay: everyone has one.

Thanks for the comments everyone.
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Byron Campbell
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kungfro wrote:
All right, am I alone in thinking that Roberta's comments have recently rolled over from "constructive" into "insulting"?



They are harsh, more harshly worded than I would have done, but (I say this without having played the game or this variant myself) what she says makes fundamental sense. These are two different games with two totally different game systems and should be treated as such. In the same way, a point in one stat IS NOT equivalent to a point in a different stat when their gameplay consequences are being applied to different things.

EDIT: That being said, I do appreciate the effort that went into this, and while I doubt I would be using the rebalanced characters myself, I am definitely going to try out the new investigators. One thing that puts me off from this game is that Fantasy Flight picked just about the most un-Lovecraftian bunch of investigators they could have gone with. Why did all the students, authors and scholars, except for Harvey, get passed over in favor of gangsters and private investigators? Maybe it's more in keeping with the CoC roleplaying game, but those aren't Lovecraftian archetypes in the slightest. So I do appreciate your attempt to add in some characters that FF haven't gotten around to yet, and all of their special abilities seem promising.
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Roberta Yang
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My comments have always been insulting. They're just usually directed at official content rather than fan content. If Corey had created these instead and announced that these were official errata, I'd have been much harsher.

The game is designed on the assumption that almost everyone has high Willpower. 6 or 7 Willpower is most common. A few characters only have 5 Willpower, usually with high Sanity to make up for it; having 5 Willpower without having more than 10 Sanity is considered a drawback (as with Dexter Drake). Out of the 12 official characters, only one (Vincent Lee) has less than 5 Willpower, and that's set up as his big weakness to balance out his amazing Grey's Anatomy starting item. The game expects you to have high Willpower - and it should, because everyone does, in the same sense that nobody has high Luck.

Now, when you take the most tested stat in the game, when every scenario and component is structured on the assumption that that stat will usually be high and where a low score in that stat is seen as a unique crippling weakness, and then you suddenly turn around and make that a dump stat for half the investigators (Joe Diamond, Kate Winthrop, and Dexter Drake don't even have a choice about it like a few of the others do - both of their trait cards have low Willpower) when those investigators also have average at best Sanity scores - surprise, that's a serious change.

It's not a simple matter of "Oh, just avoid horror tests". Willpower is the most tested stat in the game and avoiding testing it is often unavoidable, especially when merely being in the same room as a monster automatically tests it and Mythos cards hit it constantly. Because the game expects everyone to have high Willpower, it also likes putting negative modifiers on Willpower tests. In many scenarios, such as the Fall of House Lynch and Blood Ties, every monster has Horror modifier -1 or worse. That's because when they were written, 6 Willpower was considered mediocre, not above-average.

Even if you were to spend all your Skill Points on them, you'd still go crazy very quickly - for example, Joe Diamond with the stat card with more Willpower spending a Skill Point on a horror test against the monster with the nicest horror modifier in the game is still only testing 6. And have fun telling Dexter Drake, with 2 Skill Points and 1 Luck, that he obviously needs to Skill Point his Horror tests more often and that that will clearly solve his problem. Horror tests are a waste of Skill Points anyhow. If Joe Diamond spends every single Skill Point he has on horror tests, it will over the course of the game save him from taking one measly horror, so it will take only one, maybe two extra horror tests to drive him insane. Skill Points are best when you cannot afford to fail one specific individual test ("I cannot afford to be stunned this turn, I need both my movements to do X"); they're not effective at counteracting general trends like "I fail every horror test I make". Season of the Witch even had an amazing item that basically let you take a horror instead of spending a Skill Point - because Skill Points weren't made for horror tests.

The low Willpower isn't the only problem with these investigators, but it's the most obvious symptom of why it's a bad idea to design characters with zero regard for the actual rules of the game they're in.

There were existing problems with the investigators, but this did nothing to fix them. That's because it wasn't intended to actually fix anything - it was intended to shove the square peg of Arkham Horror stats in to the round hole of Mansions attributes.
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Clwe
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I don't mean to rag on the OP here (I'll make this brief), but I also agree with pretty much all of Rob's points. In particular, this paragraph (bold emphasis mine):

salty53 wrote:
You've based your work here on the fundamental assumption that "if all the numbers add up to the same total for each investigator (with minor modifications to account for starting items and such), that's what balance is". In other words, you assume all points are equal. You have presupposed that a point in Willpower is no more valuable than a point in Lore (for a non-spellcaster), because they're both worth One Point. Between that and trying to force one game's numbers to correspond exactly to another game's numbers that have totally different functions, and it's small wonder that your "rebalanced" investigators are far more poorly designed than the originals.


This really is something of a 'game design 101' kind of mistake right here. Character stats and abilities should always be balanced around the game and not a set point total/limit. It doesn't really matter if, say, one character has four special abilities while another only has two - The real question is, are they both balanced within the framework of the game? Ditto for the stats.
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I do admit that putting Lore on the level with all the other stats was a bit of a mistake. But in the end it doesn't appear to really change things. Just about every scenario has a Tome or two hidden away, and once you get your hands on a spell, a high Lore is very, very nice.

Again, my tests with the "new" investigators have worked quite well. Certainly, they played out better than any previous scenario with the official versions of Mary or Gloria. Consider that, in general, going insane is preferable to dying outright, so even the official characters have scenarios in which they're just at a huge disadvantage.

I appreciate the criticisms, and understand the amount of effort it might take players to print and cut these, so trying them out isn't as simple as just telling them to "try them out." But for those of you who do, let me know how they worked out.
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Nicola Zee
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kungfro wrote:
I do admit that putting Lore on the level with all the other stats was a bit of a mistake. But in the end it doesn't appear to really change things. Just about every scenario has a Tome or two hidden away, and once you get your hands on a spell, a high Lore is very, very nice.

Again, my tests with the "new" investigators have worked quite well. Certainly, they played out better than any previous scenario with the official versions of Mary or Gloria. Consider that, in general, going insane is preferable to dying outright, so even the official characters have scenarios in which they're just at a huge disadvantage.

I appreciate the criticisms, and understand the amount of effort it might take players to print and cut these, so trying them out isn't as simple as just telling them to "try them out." But for those of you who do, let me know how they worked out.

Thank you for your hard work and for posting these. I will use some of these ideas as a guideline. Roberta's comments can be harsh but are usually sound. It is a known issue that characters with very low sanity go insane very fast in MOM and rapidly can become a liability to the investigators.
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Guillaume Zork
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I will definitely try them. I have cut and glue so many hundreds (thousands ?) of cards/boards/others to customize my games that I do not think it won't be any bother. ^^

Play testing is definitely the best way to get a better grasp on them. I am especially excited by the idea of having new characters. Getting the figures will be easy enough
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amikezor wrote:
Getting the figures will be easy enough

That's what I said, and I'm glad I didn't have to paint them.

In fact, I had to cut out these character cards THREE TIMES because of different printing problems. Consumed my whole weekend, and then some!
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Guillaume Zork
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Ok, it is set ! We will test them on the 14th (along with the brand new scenario from Jacob, who already wrote the All-saint Asylum --one of my favorite fan-made--). I'll post you a feedback then.
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Guillaume Zork
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The Livre d'Ivon is discarded when used, right ? If not, at turn 6 you could have the 5 spells (you known, once used they usually regenerate)... or am I mis-understanding something ?
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Livre is not supposed to be discarded. It is a powerful item, on purpose, and Daisy's stats have been adjusted accordingly. Note that once you obtain those 6 spells, you have used 6 actions and lost 6 sanity, and then the book is worthless unless you manage to burn out a spell. Actions are precious in this game.
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Guillaume Zork
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and what about it gives spells that cannot be replaced (once used, they are necessarily discarded) ?
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For some copies of a spell, the spell is discarded without being replaced if you fail the Lore check. Typically you keep it.

If you discard the spell, then you don't have it anymore, and you can read Livre D'Ivon to get it again.

Side note: right now I'm working on re-re-balancing the investigators, with the goal of weighting the stats differently.
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Roberta Yang
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Giving different weights to different stats is a start, but changing your formula to One Point Willpower = Two Points Intellect or whatever won't be enough on its own. The next obstacle is that stats are nonlinear.

The difference between 6 and 8 points of Lore is huge. When your Lore is that high, you're a spellcaster, and you will be using Lore-based items like Elder Sign, so the value of your Lore stat is critical to decide how good at your job you are. On the other hand, the difference between 1 and 3 points of Lore is fairly minor. You're not going to be throwing spells around anyhow, so you'll rarely test Lore, so it makes little difference what its exact value is. The same is true of Marksmanship; if you have a high score in that stat, you need it to be as high as possible because you'll be a gunslinger, but if your score is low, you'll basically never test it so it doesn't matter how low it is.

And of course, that's not even getting into the interactions between stats. That effect is slightly weaker if you have high Luck (because you could at least Skill Point one critical gunshot you wouldn't normally even attempt) and slightly stronger if you have low Luck. Intellect has two primary uses - solving puzzles and reading Tomes - so if you don't have high Lore, points in Intellect aren't worth as much because that second use doesn't do as much. If you have a good score in one offensive stat, you have a way of hurting things, so points in the other offensive stats aren't worth as much. If your offensive stats are bad and you're more likely to be running than attacking, you'll be making more Evade tests, so each point of Dexterity is more valuable.

Starting items play a role too. If one of the options tests a certain stat, every point in that stat becomes much more important. If one of those options is a good weapon, it also makes the offensive stats it doesn't regularly test less valuable, because you can fight without them. Starting with a good spell makes high Intellect slightly less important than it would be otherwise because you can spellcast from the start without reading anything. Tommy Gun specifically makes Marksmanship extra-valuable because the first shot also determines whether you get a second shot; Warding Statue makes Strength points worth less because defending in combat isn't as vital.

And sometimes scaling gets weird. More points in Willpower have greater and greater returns in terms of how much horror they'll stop you from taking. Assuming for simplicity's sake that every horror test is unmodified, moving from 6 to 7 Willpower protects you from 25% of the horror you would otherwise have taken, but moving from 7 to 8 protects you from 33%. But at the same time, the higher your Willpower, the less likely you are to go insane, so the less you actually care about blocking that horror. Going from 4 Willpower to 5 won't block a high percentage of your horror, but perhaps that reduced percentage is more important because sanity loss is a larger threat. Obviously, the Sanity stat also affects this; the difference between 6 Willpower and 7 is much larger for someone with 8 Sanity than it is for someone with 14. I could say much the same thing about Dexterity and Health.

One Point = One Point isn't how balance works, but some rescaled thing where One Point Stat X = Two Points Stat Y or One Point = One Point (But Willpower Scores Are Increased), while better, still doesn't explain everything.

Here's my question: why do you need any sort of stat point system in the first place?

Point systems are useful for games where the actual gameplay involves letting players build their characters from scratch. It's important when creating my D&D character to know how much it costs me to start with 16 INT so that I can't just throw 18's into all of my stats; it's important when playing a video game RPG to be programmed to give me exactly three stat points to spend each time I gain a level. But in Mansions of Madness, I'm choosing one of several pre-built characters at game setup, and then choosing one of four pre-built options for those characters. Your point system would be limiting the game designers, not the players themselves. What purpose does that serve? You don't need a point system to limit the players because you're handing a list of their options in a box to them.

The only purpose such a point system would serve is to let you congratulate yourself for mathematically "proving" that your characters are perfectly balanced - in a way that, ironically, instead shows that you don't have any idea how balance works.

tl;dr: Make characters so that they work well in the context of the game. Stop making characters so that they match some arbitrary metric you've decided to make up for no apparent reason. Five seconds considering how each individual character would work in gameplay is more valuable than five hours tweaking your point balance weighting scheme.
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salty53 wrote:
The difference between 6 and 8 points of Lore is huge. When your Lore is that high, you're a spellcaster, and you will be using Lore-based items like Elder Sign, so the value of your Lore stat is critical to decide how good at your job you are. On the other hand, the difference between 1 and 3 points of Lore is fairly minor. You're not going to be throwing spells around anyhow, so you'll rarely test Lore, so it makes little difference what its exact value is. The same is true of Marksmanship; if you have a high score in that stat, you need it to be as high as possible because you'll be a gunslinger, but if your score is low, you'll basically never test it so it doesn't matter how low it is.

Nobody goes below 2 of a stat (besides Luck) and then, 2s are rare. A given character won't typically vary more than a point in a given stat. There are character who are good with ranged weapons, and/or melee weapons, and/or spells and artifacts.

Quote:
And of course, that's not even getting into the interactions between stats. That effect is slightly weaker if you have high Luck (because you could at least Skill Point one critical gunshot you wouldn't normally even attempt) and slightly stronger if you have low Luck. Intellect has two primary uses - solving puzzles and reading Tomes - so if you don't have high Lore, points in Intellect aren't worth as much because that second use doesn't do as much. If you have a good score in one offensive stat, you have a way of hurting things, so points in the other offensive stats aren't worth as much. If your offensive stats are bad and you're more likely to be running than attacking, you'll be making more Evade tests, so each point of Dexterity is more valuable.

Characters with low Intellect don't typically have low Lore.


Quote:
Starting items play a role too. If one of the options tests a certain stat, every point in that stat becomes much more important.

I've taken that into account actually.

Quote:
And sometimes scaling gets weird. More points in Willpower have greater and greater returns in terms of how much horror they'll stop you from taking. Assuming for simplicity's sake that every horror test is unmodified, moving from 6 to 7 Willpower protects you from 25% of the horror you would otherwise have taken, but moving from 7 to 8 protects you from 33%.

Percentages don't provide a fair comparison. If you take 20 horror checks, then if your Willpower is 6, you can expect to pass 12 of them. With a Willpower of 7, you can expect to pass 14 of them. This scales linearly.

Quote:
One Point = One Point isn't how balance works, but some rescaled thing where One Point Stat X = Two Points Stat Y or One Point = One Point (But Willpower Scores Are Increased), while better, still doesn't explain everything.

I think you're putting too much complexity in a lot of these elements. Their interplay is part of the fun, and I think I've achieved a good balance with this recent set.

Quote:
Here's my question: why do you need any sort of stat point system in the first place?

Because I don't want a character to be overpowered or underpowered. I don't want one "body" or "mind" card to be patently better than the other, so that it's always chosen by the investigator.

Quote:
Your point system would be limiting the game designers, not the players themselves. What purpose does that serve? You don't need a point system to limit the players because you're handing a list of their options in a box to them.

A points system is a great starting point. From there I can tweak the stats, which I absolutely have.

Quote:
The only purpose such a point system would serve is to let you congratulate yourself for mathematically "proving" that your characters are perfectly balanced - in a way that, ironically, instead shows that you don't have any idea how balance works.

tl;dr: Make characters so that they work well in the context of the game. Stop making characters so that they match some arbitrary metric you've decided to make up for no apparent reason. Five seconds considering how each individual character would work in gameplay is more valuable than five hours tweaking your point balance weighting scheme.

I have done all of these things. I wonder if there's any sense in asking you if you've playtested these characters, or even looked over the updated ones? With them, my players have come very, very close to either winning a given scenario, or losing it. I'd say that speaks volumes about their balance.
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Guillaume Zork
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We play-tested the new scenario from Jacob (In the Dark, Dark Wood, coming soon I guess) with Ursula, Rex (very nice !), Monterey, Amanda and Diana and it went very well. Surprisingly the low Will value did not bother much. We had only 1 insane investigator at the end even though several of them had a Will of 3 or 4.

It was great to have more characters to choose from. Very nice !!!
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Thanks! I have found that low Will and low Sanity has not been a huge burden.

There is a file upload in the works that changes Mandy's stats for starting with Research Materials.

In a future update I plan to change the Bullwhip, the Handcuffs, and the Livre D'Ivon (for reasons I can't discuss right now). I also have a few new investigators in mind.
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Guillaume Zork
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We have been playing half a dozen games with your revised investigators and they work great. The low Will is not an issue and they definitely show more diversity than the regular. Our group is very fond of them. Thank you Tibs for making them. This is very nice to be able to choose from more investigators.
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You're welcome. Upon the release of Call of the Wild, I'll be able to develop these, and other investigators, further.
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