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7 Wonders: Leaders» Forums » Rules

Subject: Roma & Courtesan's Guild & Timing rss

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Thomas Büttner
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What is the timing of the B side of Roma and the Courtesan's Guild?

We had this discussion yesterday:
- Player A plays Courtesan's Guild (and may now "copy" a leader)
- Player B finishes the 2nd Step of Roma (B-Side) (and may now play a leader)

- Does Player B has to choose which leader he plays before he sees/knows, that Player A plays Courtesan's Guild?
- Can Player A put the Courtesan's Guild token on the leader Player B just played with the Wonder?
- There may be situations, in which Player A would choose another leader, if he sees the new leader. There may be Situation, in which Player B would play a new Leader depending on the copied Leader.

Finally: A simultaneous decision is just not possible. So, what happens first? The Guild Token placement or the effect of the Wonder?
 
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I am not sure but I think there is no possibility to delay actions unless it is a special phase like the pillage of war.
Therefore it is determined by the player order.
I just know of Halikarnassos that can be delayed until the end of the round so one could select any card discarded that round, which makes sense.
So I think that the "copy leader" could wait until the end of the round but the "play leader" has to play immediately, but of course he/she knows that the leader would be copied and can play any "miserable" one she sees fit.
 
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Thomas Büttner
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Well, but there is no player order in 7 Wonders.
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PenumbraPenguin
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I would probably play it that you can't choose the leader coming in at the same time, by analogy with how, when you play the yellow building that gives you one coin for each brown building you and your neighbours have, you don't get an extra coin if one of your neighbours plays a brown building at the same time.
 
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PenumbraPenguin wrote:
I would probably play it that you can't choose the leader coming in at the same time, by analogy with how, when you play the yellow building that gives you one coin for each brown building you and your neighbours have, you don't get an extra coin if one of your neighbours plays a brown building at the same time.

Funny how I would have said the exact opposite because the brown buildings played by your neighbours on the same turn actually do count. Here is the description from the rules:
Quote:
the card is worth 1 coin per brown card built in the
player’s city AND in the two neighboring cities.
Clarification : The brown cards built in the neighboring
cities on the same turn as the Vineyard are counted.
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Steven Albano
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I assume the token effect happens first because Wonder abilities always seem to come after regular actions (e.g. Halikarnossos).
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Yes, sorry. Forget the order (in my mind the one at the box giving out coins etc is the fix point and then depending where the cards go this is also the numbering order of the players; but you dont have to copy that.) Nevertheless my last phrase of the first post includes the answer I think correct.
 
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Jeff Thornsen
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Based on the precedent set by Halikarnossos, I would say that a more detailed breakdown of the turn sequence is:

1. Players reveal their action (Build Card, Build Wonder, or Discard for 3 coins)
2. Players who discarded for money take their 3 coins and add their card to the discard pile
3. Players who built their Cards flip them over, and resolve them
4. Players who built their Wonder resolve the effect of the Wonder


So in your example, I'm 90% sure that the person playing the Courtesan's Guild has to choose which Leader to copy first, and then Roma plays a new leader. Roma will know which leader the Courtesan is copying before deciding which new leader to play. The Courtesan token cannot be placed on Roma's newly recruited Leader.
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Mark Englehart
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Quote:
1. Players reveal their action (Build Card, Build Wonder, or Discard for 3 coins)
2. Players who discarded for money take their 3 coins and add their card to the discard pile
3. Players who built their Cards flip them over, and resolve them
4. Players who built their Wonder resolve the effect of the Wonder


I like your break-down Jeff, but I'd go one step further:

3.0 Players who build their Cards flip them over and pay for resources, if necessary.

3.5 Players resolve their just-built Cards.

This clarifies the timing of Vineyard, etc.
 
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ackmondual
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Almecho wrote:
Well, but there is no player order in 7 Wonders.
The game is simultaneous, but even games with simultaneous movement (e.g. Race For The Galaxy, Fary Tale) have timing rules for the few things that truly can't be simultaneous.
 
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Thomas Büttner
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ackmondual wrote:
Almecho wrote:
Well, but there is no player order in 7 Wonders.
The game is simultaneous, but even games with simultaneous movement (e.g. Race For The Galaxy, Fary Tale) have timing rules for the few things that truly can't be simultaneous.

Of course! That's the reason I'm asking this question...

In this case a simultaneous execution of the two effects is technically not (easily) possible.
 
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Josh Kaufman
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Almecho wrote:
What is the timing of the B side of Roma and the Courtesan's Guild?

We had this discussion yesterday:
- Player A plays Courtesan's Guild (and may now "copy" a leader)
- Player B finishes the 2nd Step of Roma (B-Side) (and may now play a leader)

- Does Player B has to choose which leader he plays before he sees/knows, that Player A plays Courtesan's Guild?
- Can Player A put the Courtesan's Guild token on the leader Player B just played with the Wonder?
- There may be situations, in which Player A would choose another leader, if he sees the new leader. There may be Situation, in which Player B would play a new Leader depending on the copied Leader.

Finally: A simultaneous decision is just not possible. So, what happens first? The Guild Token placement or the effect of the Wonder?


My answer is that the player placing the Courtesan Guild must decide from the leaders available and not from the leaders Roma built in that turn.

A similar analogy is that when you play a card, you cannot use any resources that your neighbor builds that turn. But instead you must use the resources available before cards were revealed. Same kinda analogy here. When you build the Courtesan's Guild, you can only use the leaders available before you built the Courtesan's Guild. I think this is probably the general rule of simultaneous play in the game, with the exception of cards like the Vineyard, which specify otherwise.
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Josh Kaufman
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Almecho wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
Almecho wrote:
Well, but there is no player order in 7 Wonders. :)
The game is simultaneous, but even games with simultaneous movement (e.g. Race For The Galaxy, Fary Tale) have timing rules for the few things that truly can't be simultaneous.

Of course! That's the reason I'm asking this question... :what:

In this case a simultaneous execution of the two effects is technically not (easily) possible.


I disagree. If you follow my general rule which is that you execute the effect and ignore cards played that round (unless that effect has a specific turn order sequence mentioned, like the vineyard), you have no problem.

In general, if the rules don't tell you what effect is first, then the effect occurs and ignores other simultaneous effects at that point. This can be useful in handling things like effects that happen at the end of the turn, such as Catan side B and Halikarnassos discard wonder ability, which both occur at the end of the turn.
 
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Mik Svellov
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hobbes27 wrote:
A similar analogy is that when you play a card, you cannot use any resources that your neighbor builds that turn.

But paying the cost to build a card is not the same activating its effect!

If you build a card that gains you money from your neighbors Resource cards, you do get the extra coins for resources built this turn.

Players are deciding what they want to play simultaneously (and thus cannot build anything that cost resources that are not there yet). However, they activate their action based upon what is actually present there now - new cards included.
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Josh Kaufman
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Great Dane wrote:
hobbes27 wrote:
A similar analogy is that when you play a card, you cannot use any resources that your neighbor builds that turn.

But paying the cost to build a card is not the same activating its effect!

If you build a card that gains you money from your neighbors Resource cards, you do get the extra coins for resources built this turn.

Players are deciding what they want to play simultaneously (and thus cannot build anything that cost resources that are not there yet). However, they activate their action based upon what is actually present there now - new cards included.


Same holds true for the Courtesan's Guild. You are deciding what leader to copy based on what leader you see out there at the time.

The Vineyard and Bazaar are exceptions to this rule, which are specifically noted on those cards. The Courtesan's Guild doesn't have this exception.
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George
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hobbes27 wrote:

Same holds true for the Courtesan's Guild. You are deciding what leader to copy based on what leader you see out there at the time.

The Vineyard and Bazaar are exceptions to this rule, which are specifically noted on those cards. The Courtesan's Guild doesn't have this exception.

Hmmm, but are those exceptions or the rule? Is there any card or wonder effect that doesn't include just played cards?

With Halicarnassus, you can choose from cards discarded that round.
With Catan, you can steal money that people received for their cards that round.
With the Vineyard and Bazaar, you get gold from brown/gray cards played that round.
Even with the Lighthouse, you get 1 gold for itself, which was just played that round!

So I would tend to follow through and say…
With the Courtesan's Guild, you can choose from Leaders played that round.

The only "exception" is that you can't use resources that were played in the current round to build. This isn't explicitly stated in the rules, as far as I can tell, but it was clarified by Antoine in this thread:
Re: Commerce & simultaneous actions
I'm not completely happy with that clarification, because I would like the flexibility of switching who I am buying from if a neighbor happened to lay down the right resource (especially if I have a trading post), but I can understand it.

And as Mik points out, it's not really an "exception" that you can't use new resources to build. It makes sense that you have to pay for a card based on what is currently available, but once all the cards are revealed and played simultaneously, all the new cards are available for powers.

Could be totally wrong, but it seems more consistent this way.
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George
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I should add that an official rule that said Wonder powers happen after Card powers would make sense and clear it up too. But for now, since this game is all about simultaneous play, I like my reasoning that all new stuff is available.
 
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Steven Albano
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I was just going to comment about how cards tend to do their own thing then the boards do.

I'd think that the C. Guild would happen first then Rome would get a leader.
 
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George
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I'm going to change my position on this.

From reading some other timing threads, I think it's clear that "simultaneous" means everyone is supposed to choose how they are going to play their card (and how they are going to pay for it) before they are revealed.

So I would say the Courtesan's Guild player has to have already decided what Leader they are going to copy.

And similarly, the Rome player has to have already decided what Leader they were going to play by building the Wonder.

So neither goes first, it's simultaneous.

I don't think this conflicts with Halicarnassus or the Vineyard/Bazaar, because you are still deciding how you are playing your card beforehand (or as much as you can)... it's just that sometimes where noted, the effect can include other cards played or discarded.

So it turns out I do agree with this:
hobbes27 wrote:
Same holds true for the Courtesan's Guild. You are deciding what leader to copy based on what leader you see out there at the time.

The Vineyard and Bazaar are exceptions to this rule, which are specifically noted on those cards. The Courtesan's Guild doesn't have this exception.

And a lot of the other above posts... though I'm not sure anyone else is saying Rome should also have decided before seeing that the Courtesan Card was being played.
 
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Jacek Deimer
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7 Wonders: Leaders » Forums » Rules
Re: Roma & Courtesan's Guild & Timing
I've asked Antoine Bauza 2 questions related to Roma/Catan and here are the answers:

Quote:
1.Does Maecenas make additional leaders recruited by ROMA and CATAN also free? I think that it does, but I'm not 100% sure?

2.If Courtesan Guild is built in the same turn that ROMA/CATAN recruits extra leader, can it copy leader recruited during the same turn?

Antoines answers:

1. Yes
2. No




I hope this will help to end this debate! And sorry for my poor language skills.
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George
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Phew, I switched sides just in time!
 
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Jacek Deimer
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soosy wrote:
Phew, I switched sides just in time!


To be honest, I've got answers a month ago, just forgot to post them .
 
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Thomas Büttner
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Reid666 wrote:
I've asked Antoine Bauza 2 questions related to Roma/Catan and here are the answers:

Quote:
1.Does Maecenas make additional leaders recruited by ROMA and CATAN also free? I think that it does, but I'm not 100% sure?

2.If Courtesan Guild is built in the same turn that ROMA/CATAN recruits extra leader, can it copy leader recruited during the same turn?

Antoines answers:

1. Yes
2. No




I hope this will help to end this debate! And sorry for my poor language skills.

Unfortunately, it does not.

So now we know, that the player who plays the Courtesans Guild may not copy the Leader played by the player who finished another stage of the Roma wonder.

But: Does he get to see, which Leader the Roma player is playing? Does the Roma player get to see, which Leader the Roma player is going to play?

My personal opinion on procedure:
1. The Roma player selects his Leader and puts him face down on the table
2. The Courtesans Guild player copies a Leader
3. The Roma player reveals his Leader

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