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Phantom Players - Making Games Playable for Two.

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Sunday morning, 8am.

I'm the only one up and I'm wanting to play a game already. Last night the wife and I had a really great game of Dungeon Lords - well great from my point of view as my plan worked out and she kind of got screwed on the last turn as she had no money to do the actions she wanted, but the game was still a lot of fun for both of us regardless.

With my workload these days, I don't get out to game with the guys like I used to and all my gaming pretty much is two player - though there is the occasional 3 player game when I can cajole a friend to come over or get my daughter to join us.

Phantom Players

A lot of my favorite games are best with more than two players - El Grande, Cosmic Encounter and RoboRally are the first to come to mind, but there is a recent trend among game designers that I am really beginning to appreciate: adding in a phantom 3rd or 4th player.

A game like El Grande or Cosmic Encounter would make it really difficult to have a phantom player as there are too many decisions that have to be made regarding cube placement or alliances. Any effort to create a system would be forced and less than desirable in my opinion, as the human aspect is missing in a game where there is some strategic or diplomatic aspect involved.

However, some games actually are very well suited for a system to represent a 3rd player. I've been lucky enough to try a couple of these and the first one I'm going to discuss is Dungeon Lords.


In the game, each player is selecting 3 actions from an identical set of cards (minus 2 of the actions he previously selected the turn before). Worker (or Minion) placement occurs in turn order after each player has selected his actions and layed them out in the order he wants them done. This is a great mechanic as it allows the 1st player to get the action he really wants by placing it first in his order - he will be the first person to place his minion so he knows exactly what he wil get. It's also possible that he will get his preference of his 2nd and 3rd actions provided no one else has played those in their program earlier them he did.

With 3 or 4 human players, you have a hard time figuring out what each other players action priority will be, so unless you are the 1st player, most of your actions are "best guesses" as to where you will ultimately end up. Each type of action has 3 spaces - increasing in rewards and cost usually for each space and since you always hace to take the first available open space, there is a lot of uncertainty as to how your plan will work out (again, unless you are the 1st player).

Simulating a 3rd player is actually very easy in Dungeon Lords. The flip side of the player boards is set up to handle a phantom player buy having spaces for 3 action cards that will be unavailable to the phantom player. This leaves 5 other actions left for the next turn - 3 of which will get used as the phantom player's program. 2 are immediately selected at random and placed face up for both players to see. Minions in the phantom player(s) color are placed for these actions in the middle spot for each action space.

Now each real player goes about selecting their 3 actions from their limited subset hand of action cards for this turn AND picks the 3rd action for the phantom player they control - placing it face down until the other player is ready. Once both players have programmed their turn, these 3rd action for the phantom players are revealed and the last minion is placed in the 1st spot for each action space.

What is great about this system is that 2 of each phantom player's actions will be totally random each turn (from the available 5), BUT 1 action will be under your control to either help you get more rewards from an action space (by allowing you to place in a higher spot as the phantom player you got to program takes the lower spot), OR you can use the 3rd action of the phantom player you control to thwart your opponents placement since you can typically see what the majority of actions are available to him and deduce what he will most likely go for.

This simulates a real 3rd or 4th person very well - usually a real person's actions would be mostly random to you, but you might be able to figure out one thing that they were definately going to do and capitalize on it.

I've played Dungeon Lords with 2, 3 and 4 players and it's just as good with 2 players (and 2 phantom players) as it is with 3 or 4 real players.

Fresco takes the phantom player approach a little differently. In Fresco, a 3rd player (Leonardo), is alternately controlled by each real player. Although his actions are pre set (buy paints at the Market and Paint in the Cathedral every turn), you still select the wake-up time for Leonardo, detemine which market he will "buy" from (effectively closing it down and removing it as a choice for your opponent) and you get to determine which fresco tile Leonardo will complete on the ceiling (removing that tile and earning Leonardo points).


Leonardo doesn't have to have money or paints, he just does things as needed which keeps things simple and it works surprisingly well. There are several strategies with Leonardo, on one hand, since he never needs the correct paints to score a fresco tile, you may always want him to paint the lowest scoring tile to keep his score down. This has drawbacks though as the wake-up time selection is based on the scoring position of each pawn and if you always give your opponent Leonardo's choice of wake-up time before you, then you might get screwed in the market, cathedral or even the studio as you didn't get the wake-up time you wanted.

Scoring a ton of points for Leonardo also can hurt you the other way - if he is too far ahead you'll never get to use him defensively to secure your wake up time, or have him complete a fresco tile close to the one you want so you can get the Bishop bonus. Again, it's a fine balance of using the phantom player to your advantage whenever possible, yet making it difficult for your opponent to do the same.

This balance simulates a real 3rd player very nicely as often, you'll have control and it won't help at all and other times you'll benefit from the actions of Leonardo under control of your opponent - as he had no option in how to utilize him against you.

As a primarily two player gamer these days, I have to say that this is a design element that I'm really appreciating and enjoying as some of the more unusual games coming out are using mechanics and rules for phantom players very successfully.

This is definitely a trend I hope continues!


Discussion Points:

What about you? Have you had any similar experiences with a phantom player in a game you enjoy? What other games feature similar rules or mechanics to include phantom players? What games do you wish had included phantom players? Are there any games with these kinds of rules that don't work well?
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Subscribe sub options Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:14 pm
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Lee Ambolt
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the thing we didnt like about Leonardo in Fresco (or maybe I misremember) is dont you reset his position each turn??? and you alternate moving him, so it can feel a bit like, ok you move him to help you/hurt me, then I do the same next time, so it just felt a bit...pointless.

Am more intrigued by Dungeon Lords, I keep passing on that for fear of bad 2P suitability but your account seems to indicate its not as bad as I may fear. Very nice blog post anyway
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  • Posted Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:43 pm
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ldsdbomber wrote:
the thing we didnt like about Leonardo in Fresco (or maybe I misremember) is dont you reset his position each turn??? and you alternate moving him, so it can feel a bit like, ok you move him to help you/hurt me, then I do the same next time, so it just felt a bit...pointless.

Am more intrigued by Dungeon Lords, I keep passing on that for fear of bad 2P suitability but your account seems to indicate its not as bad as I may fear. Very nice blog post anyway


Thanks for the comments Lee!

If I recall correctly, each turn Leonardo paints a fresco tile and both his Master Painter and the Bishop is moved to the tile the controlling player selects. The controlling player has to pick one a tile orthogonally adjacent to wherever the Master Painter is from the previous turn. This actually gives some strategy decisions as to which fresco tile(s) you want to go for (and have Leonardo paint), as you can often have him paint a tile closer to the one you want to paint on your turn to give you additional points as the bishop would be closer then too. This is also balanced by how many points you want to give Leonardo as it will determine the wake-up selection order on the following turn too.

I highly recommend Dungeon Lords 2, 3 or 4 player - it doesn't matter. If the theme is appealing to you at all, this is a great twist on worker placement games and there are a lot of interesting things to consider during your turn. It makes me want to try out the designer's other game Galaxy Trucker.

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  • Edited Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:02 pm
  • Posted Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:02 pm
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Jim Reichert
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My wife and I designed Ugh! to be playable by a couple of people and then scale up from there. Essentially, it's a game where you play against the deck (and your own greed) instead of the other people around the table. The by-product, of course, is that someone is going to do best against the deck and they'll win.

As I develop my new designs, I keep the underserved two-player market strictly in mind. It's insanely challenging, since a lot of traditional mechanics seem to break down.

It's almost easier to make a single-player game and scale up to two by splitting responsibilities among the players-- like the traditional co-op (Forbidden Island and Pandemic.) These are essentially one-player games, in my mind.

Perhaps the most challenging part of designing games for more than two people is the fact that you need to find people to play-test with. I have a design that I'm only able to test once a month or so-- if I'm lucky. It may come down to converting the design into an application and writing AI to fill out the other players. The good news is that converting your rule set into a rigid framework like that helps you balance and control the gameplay.

I'd love to see more posts on two-player game design!
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  • Posted Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:06 pm
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Rick Baptist
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I'm usually right along with you but on this one I really have to disagree. While I certainly can appreciate finding more two-player games to play, I have always felt that two-player games need to be designed that way from the start. There are some 2-4 player games that can pull off 2 players pretty well, but there isn't enough, and what's worse for me is when a game claims it can hold 2 when it can't. That's where the phantom player comes in, and I *really* don't like that mechanic. My first experience with it was in Alhambra, where Dirk does his own thing. It drove us bonkers, because the game was obviously designed for 3-or-more. I've avoided a lot of Queen games recently because of that phantom issue -- they always want to put 2-player on the box so they push the phantom in there.

I'm glad you enjoy it, but it just bugs me.

Oh, and I played Dungeon Lords with two also. I just didn't like it one bit (although it might just be the game for me on that one!)

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  • Posted Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:18 am
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I think the key to a phantom player is to make it easy to maintain but still give the feel of another player.

Alhambra's Dirk manages it quite well. Obviusly not to everyone's taste, but it is a popular 2 player game.

A couple more examples I like:

Louis XIV has a ghost player which places 4 pairs of influence markers: one pair where the king is and 3 more by a pick of a card. It is quick and gives some competition for the squares - important for an influence/area majority game. One drawback is of course that sometimes the extra player picks a spot where it matters not one bit whether he was there or not. But some sacrifice for ease of use are needed.

More recently, we have Glen More's die sometimes known as Nessie, which is used in both 2 and 3 player games. It will typically roll a 1 and move one ahead of the back-most player but sometimes jumps 2 or 3. Very quick and easy, with an uncanny ability to take the tile you were about to take next turn. If that is not a sign that a ghost player is doing its job, I don't know what is.

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  • Posted Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:45 pm
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SlikkRikk wrote:
I'm usually right along with you but on this one I really have to disagree. While I certainly can appreciate finding more two-player games to play, I have always felt that two-player games need to be designed that way from the start. There are some 2-4 player games that can pull off 2 players pretty well, but there isn't enough, and what's worse for me is when a game claims it can hold 2 when it can't. That's where the phantom player comes in, and I *really* don't like that mechanic. My first experience with it was in Alhambra, where Dirk does his own thing. It drove us bonkers, because the game was obviously designed for 3-or-more. I've avoided a lot of Queen games recently because of that phantom issue -- they always want to put 2-player on the box so they push the phantom in there.

I'm glad you enjoy it, but it just bugs me.

Oh, and I played Dungeon Lords with two also. I just didn't like it one bit (although it might just be the game for me on that one!)



Rick,

I've never played Alhambra at all, much less 2 player - but since I do own it, your comments really make me want to give it a go as both a 2 and 3 player game.

I agree that some games definitely should not say 2 players on them - one of my favorites, El Grande, is listed as supporting 2-5 players but the game is really only good with 4-5. Why on earth anyone would ever play it 2 players is beyond me, but there it is.

Although I do appreciate dedicated 2 player games - Hera and Zeus, Odin's Ravens, Battle Line and the Settlers of Catan Card Game all come to mind, I do tend to not get the same satisfaction from those games as I do with something a bit meatier (Settlers of Catan Card Game IS an exception here). Having a more complicated and involved game available for two players is very appealing to me and as you say, those kinds of games dedicated to two players are few and far between - I'd say Stronghold is the most recent example of this that I own. Yes, it can be played by 3-4 but everyone knows that's just dividing up the 2 player game and I think it's really a problem in the opposite direction: adding to the # of players a game supports to make it sell better.

I've never felt like the phantom player mechanic was broken in Dungeon Lords - to the contrary, it felt like there was someone there who's actions sometimes helped and sometimes hurt my plans, just like a real opponent. Maybe down the road that may change, but I'm really enjoying the game as it stands now so we shall see.

Notre Dame just adds in two more boards to spread out the messages that can be collected, so there isn't a forced mechanic feeling there either from my experience.

I'd definately give them both a try and I will do the same for Alhambra - we shall discuss this subject again my friend!

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  • Posted Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:02 am
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loofish wrote:
I think the key to a phantom player is to make it easy to maintain but still give the feel of another player.

Alhambra's Dirk manages it quite well. Obviusly not to everyone's taste, but it is a popular 2 player game.

A couple more examples I like:

Louis XIV has a ghost player which places 4 pairs of influence markers: one pair where the king is and 3 more by a pick of a card. It is quick and gives some competition for the squares - important for an influence/area majority game. One drawback is of course that sometimes the extra player picks a spot where it matters not one bit whether he was there or not. But some sacrifice for ease of use are needed.

More recently, we have Glen More's die sometimes known as Nessie, which is used in both 2 and 3 player games. It will typically roll a 1 and move one ahead of the back-most player but sometimes jumps 2 or 3. Very quick and easy, with an uncanny ability to take the tile you were about to take next turn. If that is not a sign that a ghost player is doing its job, I don't know what is.



Well, now there are TWO games I need to get to the table as I also own Louis XIV! I've read the rules at some point to and it did look very interesting so I now have some incentive to get it to the table.

I also think you hit the nail on the head when you say the phantom player can't feel forced or otherwise it fails. I'm trying to think of a game where that is the case... Hmm, nothing is coming to mind but I'm sure there are a couple at least.

Thanks for the comments and the recommendations!
 
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  • Edited Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:06 am
  • Posted Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:04 am
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manowarplayer wrote:
SlikkRikk wrote:
I'm usually right along with you but on this one I really have to disagree. While I certainly can appreciate finding more two-player games to play, I have always felt that two-player games need to be designed that way from the start. There are some 2-4 player games that can pull off 2 players pretty well, but there isn't enough, and what's worse for me is when a game claims it can hold 2 when it can't. That's where the phantom player comes in, and I *really* don't like that mechanic. My first experience with it was in Alhambra, where Dirk does his own thing. It drove us bonkers, because the game was obviously designed for 3-or-more. I've avoided a lot of Queen games recently because of that phantom issue -- they always want to put 2-player on the box so they push the phantom in there.

I'm glad you enjoy it, but it just bugs me.

Oh, and I played Dungeon Lords with two also. I just didn't like it one bit (although it might just be the game for me on that one!)



Rick,

I've never played Alhambra at all, much less 2 player - but since I do own it, your comments really make me want to give it a go as both a 2 and 3 player game.

I agree that some games definitely should not say 2 players on them - one of my favorites, El Grande, is listed as supporting 2-5 players but the game is really only good with 4-5. Why on earth anyone would ever play it 2 players is beyond me, but there it is.

Although I do appreciate dedicated 2 player games - Hera and Zeus, Odin's Ravens, Battle Line and the Settlers of Catan Card Game all come to mind, I do tend to not get the same satisfaction from those games as I do with something a bit meatier (Settlers of Catan Card Game IS an exception here). Having a more complicated and involved game available for two players is very appealing to me and as you say, those kinds of games dedicated to two players are few and far between - I'd say Stronghold is the most recent example of this that I own. Yes, it can be played by 3-4 but everyone knows that's just dividing up the 2 player game and I think it's really a problem in the opposite direction: adding to the # of players a game supports to make it sell better.

I've never felt like the phantom player mechanic was broken in Dungeon Lords - to the contrary, it felt like there was someone there who's actions sometimes helped and sometimes hurt my plans, just like a real opponent. Maybe down the road that may change, but I'm really enjoying the game as it stands now so we shall see.

Notre Dame just adds in two more boards to spread out the messages that can be collected, so there isn't a forced mechanic feeling there either from my experience.

I'd definately give them both a try and I will do the same for Alhambra - we shall discuss this subject again my friend!



You know, from reading your post I think you'd really enjoy Alhambra 2-player! Glad to have made the suggestion!

I didn't feel that Dungeon Lords was broken, but I didn't really like the game in the first place, so that certainly affected my decision. You mentioned El Grande as a good example of tacking on that player, and I would agree, that's one of the worst. I can't imagine, either. Publishers need to stop doing this -- it just does the game, the company, and the purchasers a disservice. I often see "two-player variants" as well on the geek, and I usually avoid those like the plague as well.

I hear you on the meaty conversation. I prefer boards over cards all the time, and it seems like two-player only games are essentially card games. I stumbled upon 2 De Mayo at my con's auction -- I have yet to play it but it looks quite neat. I have Stronghold on order, can't wait to get it. A few other meatier-type two-player games are the Commands and Colors series (I love Battlelore the most) and I feel Ticket to Ride versions and Last Night on Earth both handle two-player great.

Have a great week.
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  • Posted Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:07 am
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