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ekted's brain dump

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Wargames: Barriers to Entry

Jim Cote
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I don't know the breakdown of gamer types here on BGG (please post some stats if you have them), but I would guess that the majority are light euro gamers. But wherever you start, you are likely to be exposed to wargaming at some point. You might see an interesting image. You might play a game that has a simple conflict mechanism. You might check out a game that your friends or GeekBuddies have been raving about. I'll guess (again) that the average first reaction is negative. At least, that's the sense I get from being on BGG 27 hours a day.

Of the top 50 games on BGG, Twilight Struggle, War of the Ring, Commands & Colors: Ancients, Paths of Glory, Hannibal: Rome vs. Carthage, Combat Commander: Europe, War of the Ring Collector's Edition, Twilight Imperium (third edition), Here I Stand, Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! Russia 1941-1942, Advanced Squad Leader, and Memoir '44 are marked as wargames, with many others possessing some limited forms of direct conflict.

As I have gotten deeper into gaming in general, I have gotten deeper into wargames. It's partly because I have naturally branched out from my humble euro beginnings, partly because I look into just about anything that I stumble onto, and partly because I am always looking for deeper and richer gaming experiences. If you want to get heavier (not just more complicated) than Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization, for example, there's really no better place to go other than wargames.

However, wargames are difficult to get on the table, and virtually impossible to even introduce to non-wargamers without having to push a little. The following are the barriers to entry--perceived or real--that I see for wargames in general, and my reactions to those. You can always find examples of wargames (and others) that do not exhibit the typical traits I will discuss, but I'm going to ignore the extremes.

Wargames have long rules: They do. If you want to play a wargame, you are going to have to expect to put more effort into understanding more concepts than your average euro. But you'd be surprised how much overlap there is in concepts between many wargames, especially those of the same scale (tactical, operational, etc). For example, many tactical games have line-of-sight (LOS), and many operational games have zone-of-control (ZOC).

Wargames don't use conversational rules style / Wargame rules aren't written for learning the game: Many wargames have rules numbered like 3.10.5. With more concepts comes the need for more organization. First of all, it's much better to refer to rule 3.10.5 when talking about it instead of something like "page 6, second column, third paragraph". This system also avoids the issues that would occur if two people used two different printings of the rulebook (numbered wargame rules ALWAYS keep the same rule numbers). Secondly, wargames--more than any other games--have systems with a lot of conceptual feedback. For example, you cannot talk about movement without talking about defensive fire, and vice versa. And in a related manner, wargames use the same concepts in multiple places. For example, notions like fire attacks or supply lines might be used in many places in the sequence of play. Having all the rules for one concept in one place is really a good way to go.

Wargames have too much chrome: I suppose it depends on your definition. If a game has, say, infantry and cavalry, do you want them just to be generic units with perhaps a different strength or movement rate? Or do you want them to have some semblance of the properties of their real-world counterparts? It might come down to what the game is trying to represent as well as its scale. If the differences are important to the game, many different properties are justified. This might affect the values associated with each unit, special cases based on terrain, etc. If everything was a cube, there might not be any "game".

Wargames have terrible components: I love my wooden bits as much as the next euro gamer, but they rarely work well in the context of a wargame. In order to differentiate units in a significant way, many values must be present. The "chit" is the most natural and functional solution. It's really no different from Race for the Galaxy: put a bunch of icons/values in predefined positions, and use them in clear and consistent ways. In Race, a new card could be introduced to the game, and you would instantly know all of its properties at a glance. The same holds true for chits. For example, in ASL, being able to differentiate the subtleties between a German "5(2)-4-8 E" and a German "4-6-7 1" is vital. Replacing these units with figures doesn't work. You'd need to be able to differentiate dozens of figure types on a map, then lookup their stats on a table.

What about paper maps? There are several practical reasons why paper maps are preferred by some: cost, weight, smaller boxes, no seams. Some of the more popular games are getting a more deluxe mounted board treatment (eg Twilight Struggle), and some older games are being reprinted on cardstock (eg ASL). The artwork tends to be less busy than a standard euro with professional art. This helps to visually distinguish the board from the large number of playing pieces on it.

What about hexes? A hex grid is the best way to uniformly break up an area to allow for discrete movement in "arbitrary" directions. Any form of grids is going to introduce "rounding errors" in movement, but I find hexes to be a very good playable abstraction. Of course, not all wargames use hexes. There are maps with countries or other variably-shaped regions, point-to-point maps, etc.

Wargames take too long to play: As with any genre, there are many different lengths. However, once you become immersed in a good wargame, you will find that an hour is not enough to play out a scenario with any amount of detail. Games that end sooner than expected might be disappointing. You might find that spending an entire evening engrossed in a good wargame is more fulfilling than 3-4 light euros. Wargames tend to NOT feel at all like "rinse and repeat" for hours and hours. There are discernible arcs to the narrative. You will find yourself thinking a lot about the game you just played.

I'm not a history buff: Neither am I. I know that WWI/II happened in the 20th century and that the Roman Empire was somewhere east of me. That doesn't spoil my fun at all. Wargames pose challenges of many types: spatial (position, range, connectivity, facing/flanking), unit management, timing/sequencing, bluffing, usage of terrain/elevation/cover, command & control, tactics/strategy, politics, negotiation, etc. And you just might find yourself learning something along the way.

Wargames are all the same: Perhaps in some very superficial way, yes. Wargames are about conflicts. But they are as different (or more so) than the entire gamut of euro games.

There are differences in scale. Some games have individual soldiers fighting over very short distances. Some have platoons, battalions, corps, divisions, or entire armies. The entire way you think about playing these games, as well as what factors matter, changes with the scale. How far away can units engage? How does terrain/elevation affect movement and combat? Are turns long enough that supply is a factor? Are they long enough that you can consider "making more units"?

There are different map styles: square, hex, area, point-to-point, etc. The way that "locations" are laid out and connected to each other affects the game play. Gridded maps allow for open movement. Area maps typically conform to geographic and/or political boundaries. Point-to-point maps typically align with meaningful locations (eg cities) and travel between them (eg roads, passes, straits, sea).

There are differences in goals. Some games are about attrition (eg killing so many units, or specific units). Some are about control (eg occupation of a building, or a city, or a country). Some are about getting units across a map. Some are about VP's (generically scoring points for various accomplishments). In some games, each player has different goals, or the goals change over time.

There are differences in implementation. On one end, a wargame can be all about design for simulation. And as I've said before, simulation means "a credible pretense of reality", and not some higher purpose. These games let the players make choices in detail, dealing directly with the systems of the conflict itself. On the other end, a wargame can be all about design for effect. These games step back a bit from the details. The goal (maybe) is for the results to be correct, but the steps the players execute to get those results may not seem "realistic".

The wargame decision space is too open: Consider a game like Ra. On your turn, you have two choices: draw a tile, or invoke Ra. Even if you have no idea what's best, the choices are obvious. In a wargame, you might have dozens of units, each with different characteristics, positions, facings, etc. Combine this with all of the possible interactions with every other unit on the board, and the choices seem almost limitless. I suppose it's analogous to a person who has never played an RPG. The GM doesn't ask, "Do you want to move or attack?" The GM simply inquires, "What do you want to do?" It IS wide open, and that's a good thing. You can make plans, attempt to execute them, and adapt to changing circumstances.

Wargames are too random: Say you are into archery. You fire 100 arrows at a target. 5 hit the bullseye, 12 hit the red, 15 hit the black, 24 hit the white, and 44 miss the target completely. Now you want to "simulate" the act of shooting an arrow at that target with your skill level. You've already figured out the answer, right? Roll some dice, and lookup the answer in a table. That's exactly what many wargames do. The tables are designed to produce an effect that makes the game work. If a game had 100% predictable results for every future action, it would be an abstract (eg Chess).

That's not to say that all wargames handle uncertainty in the same way. Some use "buckets of dice" to inflict hits. Some use a small number of dice and lookup the results on a table. Some use cards. Some have no randomness at all, but use hidden information in the form of blocks to keep things interesting.

Also, "results" are not always "loss of hit points". Units may be pinned, broken, suppressed, routed, reduced, demoralized, etc. A unit/stack may be able to abort its attack or retreat to negate some "damage".

Wargames are not as fun as XYZ: I can't help you there. You like what you like. But I would urge you to not fall prey to preconceptions of wargames. And if you "played one" long ago and hated it (eg Risk, Axis & Allies), do not assume that all wargames are the same (above). In fact, there are more wargame systems than there are euro mechanisms. I'm sure there's one for almost everyone.

I have a moral objection to war/conflict: In Through the Ages, you can attack each other. In Dominion, you can steal. In Battlestar Galactica, you can airlock a player. In Endeavor, you can keep slaves. In Dungeon Lords, everyone plays the bad guys. In all cases, it's just moving bits around. Games use theme to tell a story and/or to map the system to something real so it's easier to remember. Wargames are no different, except maybe that they represent more "real" things than other game types. Wargames don't glorify killing; they let players relive events, learn, understand, experiment.


And so:

You've probably already tested the waters: If you've played Through the Ages or Tigris & Euphrates, you've already experienced the idea of directly attacking an opponent to gain military, material, or scoring advantages. If you've played Power Grid or any of the railroad games, you've already dealt with connectivity. If you've played El Grande or Die Macher, you understand the notion of fighting for control. If you've played Goa or Saint Petersburg, you have had to manage your economy. If you've played Race for the Galaxy or 7 Wonders, you've encountered hand management. If you've played Chinatown or Cosmic Encounter, you've tried to trade/negotiate with opponents.

The deep end of the pool: I'm not a fan of the concept of "gateway games". If you have any interest whatsoever, I think you should just dive right in and spend the time getting over the initial hump of some relatively meaty wargame. If you aren't willing to read rules for a few hours (knowing you will not get it all, and that you will make mistakes the first time you play), and spend a couple of game nights just playing a single game a couple of times, then the entire genre is probably not for you. There are certainly many shorter, simpler wargames out there. But I think you may not get the right impression from such a game. That's why I would never recommend Ticket to Ride or Settlers to anyone interested in gaming in general; they give a false impression, and teach all the wrong things.

Wargaming is active on BGG: Wargamers are passionate about their hobby, maybe even more so than euro gamers. The Wargames Forum is the most active subdomain forum on BGG. The discussions are very enjoyable, and the people are helpful.
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Subscribe sub options Mon May 16, 2011 12:25 am
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David Zumwalt
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Good article! Well done, Jim!
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 12:52 am
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Who Am I Now?
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Really well reasoned and thoughtful article.

One thing I find notable about wargames in general is that they seem to lend themselves to solitaire review - that is, it is frequently satisfying to solo a game to study the viability of different strategies - in a way that would quickly become boring (for me personally) with a typical euro.

Also, I might suggest including some recommendations for some specific "relatively meaty wargames". I have enjoyed playing wargames, particularly as a teenager so many years ago, but my preferences have always been toward the low end of the difficulty spectrum (meaning more substance than Memoir '44 or Axis and Allies, but quite likely less than titles preferred by the grognards).
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 1:07 am
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Byron Collins
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ekted wrote:
Wargaming is active on BGG: Wargamers are passionate about their hobby, maybe even more so than euro gamers. The Wargames Forum is the most active subdomain forum on BGG. The discussions are very enjoyable, and the people are helpful.


Amen to that Good well-thought out post, Jim.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 2:15 am
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Ian Anderson
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Nice article, that sums up the similarities and differences well.

Off the top of my head I can think of a couple more barriers to entry:

Opponents are hard to find: wargaming is a smaller branch of the hobby these days and it is easier to find 3 or 4 people to play the latest euro game than 1 person to play a wargame against. I expect that the internet has facilitated remote play but I do like to see my opponent across the table (except in Diplomacy ).

Preference for multiplayer games: if I am sitting at a table with 3 other people and Fred says "lets play 2 two player games" and Jim says "lets play a 4 player game", I am going to side with Jim. This is very much a personal preference thing. For me the social aspect of gaming is important. (Possibly because I'm more comfortable in the structured social environment of a game to the unstructured social environment of say a party or friends "hanging out". So I don't want to waste those multiplayer gaming opportunities).

Of course this doesn't stop me playing multiplayer wargames .
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 2:19 am
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Jim Cote
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Yes. Please add more items as you think of them.

ianne wrote:
Of course this doesn't stop me playing multiplayer wargames .

Exactly. I played Here I Stand for the first time back in November with a full complement of 6. It took over 12 hours, and was never boring.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 2:29 am
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Jim Cote
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mmolus wrote:
Also, I might suggest including some recommendations for some specific "relatively meaty wargames".

That may be a little beyond my experience. I've only played a little full ASL. I've played Here I Stand once, Napoleon's Triumph a handful of times, and started Paths of Glory a couple of times. My experience with "medium" wargames is a bit higher: HotS, AVL, TS, FAB: Bulge, Hannibal, and an unplayed Successors burning a hole in my shelves. I thought about adding a section where I match up some popular euros with some overlapping wargames, but I don't think I could do it justice.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 2:36 am
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Eddy del Rio
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Excellent article Jim.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 3:11 am
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Andy Foulke
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ekted wrote:
I thought about adding a section where I match up some popular euros with some overlapping wargames, but I don't think I could do it justice.


I personally think it'd be worth a try; I'd enjoy reading that.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 3:36 am
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Well written and reasoned. A huge thumbsup from me.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 3:54 am
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While there is something to be said for diving right into the deep end of the pool, I really don't recommend that even a seasoned Euro gamer pick the full campaign game of The Battle for Normandy as their first wargame.

That's what I'm in the middle of right now, and it's gloriously frustrating. Hundreds of chits on the map, all slightly different. Hundreds of small decisions to make in a cloud of probabilities. I'm told that this has clean simple rules, as wargames go, and it certainly all makes logical sense, but oh! there's so much to keep track of...

Another thing about wargames that wasn't in the review: a huge preponderance of them are 1-vs.-1; that makes a big difference in both the social experience and the types of chaos -- in typical Euros the biggest source of chaos is the interaction between multiple players.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 4:36 am
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Derek Rowe
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Awsome Article. Thanks for sharing!
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 4:42 am
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Jim Cote
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Morganza wrote:
While there is something to be said for diving right into the deep end of the pool, I really don't recommend that even a seasoned Euro gamer pick the full campaign game of The Battle for Normandy as their first wargame.

I wasn't suggesting a monster game or even something like ASL. I just wanted to dissuade people from thinking they had to take baby steps.

Morganza wrote:
Another thing about wargames that wasn't in the review: a huge preponderance of them are 1-vs.-1; that makes a big difference in both the social experience and the types of chaos -- in typical Euros the biggest source of chaos is the interaction between multiple players.

Certainly in 2p wargames, the multi-player interaction isn't there. If you play games mainly for the social aspects, this may be a turn off. But mechanically, even a 2p wargame can offer a lot of multi-directional and multi-dimensional interaction. For example, even playing a simple ASL Starter Kit #1 scenario, I have to do more thinking about timing and position from many directions and sources (in various combinations) than a 5p game of Steam.

Also, I find game nights with 2 or more tables to be fully social at some level. There's pre-game pizza and chatting, picking games, listening to each other's screams and curses of frustration, checking out each other's games on the way by, etc.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 4:47 am
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Enrico Viglino
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Yeah, I was definitely worried about the "Jumping in the
deep end" part - that deep end can get purdy darned deep.

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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 5:44 am
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Frederik Beyer
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Quote:
I'm not a fan of the concept of "gateway games". If you have any interest whatsoever, I think you should just dive right in and spend the time getting over the initial hump of some relatively meaty wargame.


Gateway games
In this context, do you consider Commands & Colours, Ancients to be a gateway game?

I've played miniature wargames since '96 and I found CC;A to be the best balance of everything I look for in a game and I even play it with my girlfriend. It easy to understand, it's fun to play, it's fast to play, it rewards long time planning, it has a lot of exiting dice-related moments (balancing against bad luck is part of what makes this game fun) and you can tweak a lot of fun stuff out of the rulebook once you get the hang of the game.

Some thirteen pages of rules aren't that hard once you stumbled through the first game, but the way you can use the rules are really something, especially when you are used to some of the tactics in a regular miniature game. CC;A would be considered a gateway game in my world, but not only because it's easy to understand, but because it actually rewards a lot of play, rather than get tedious with time.
You will want to stomp people flat with elephants, you'll want to play more games in an evening, you will want to try the same scenario several times with each side to try out strategies and you won't have a hard time understanding the rules once you see the logic behind the units.

Or do you consider RISK a gateway game?
In the sense that you roll dice and move little armies about and thus label this P.O.S. game a wargame even though it bears no resemblance to "real" (I don't like the term real but I use it anyway) wargames, and end up scaring people away?

Play Time
I play twilight struggle with my girlfriend.
It can easily take us 4 hours to play.
The thing is with wargames (for me), you don't look at the clock when you're playing. The total immersion in the game is why they are so much fun. You don't care what time it is, you stomping ruskies out of the middle east it could be four in the morning... you don't care!


Also: If anyone reads this and think that maybe they'll like to try out wargames I think Commands and Colours; Ancients are worth a try. Borrow it, so you wont have to spend time putting on stickers and reading rules before playing, and play it at least four or five times (it'll take you 5 hours all in all).
When you have problems with all your green units getting slaughtered and your heavy infantry isn't as good as you thought, come back to the CC;A boards and read a bit, then try it again.
Your view on auxilia will never be the same again
I am confident that anyone that gives this game a fair shot will think it's really, really good.
It takes an hour to stomp a roman legion flat with elephants, then you can switch sides and do it again. Inevitably, this is what almost everyone does when they first encounter the game, just read through a couple of reviews and you'll see a clear pattern emerging.

Either that or Twilight Struggle. If you like the incredibly deep immersion in a very simple set of rules then I think TS deserves a spin. It takes time, but is a game that rewards more and more play time. It's highly ranked because you get a lot of fun out of very little and you are on the edge for the full four hours, it's not highly ranked because it's a niche game that only soothes the "true" connoisseurs, it's because most people who play it, will want to play it again.

edit.
Question is: will non-wargamers read this topic?
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  • Edited Mon May 16, 2011 7:55 am
  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 7:54 am
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Dan Gillette
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So what would you suggest as a first step past Memoir '44? What would be your recommendations for a first "real" wargame?
 
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 8:00 am
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Martí Cabré

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Excellent article! I will link it in Facebook.
 
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 8:20 am
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Jim Cote
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Frederik, you ask some good questions. I haven't played C&C:A, so I can't speak from experience. It uses a card system like Memoir '44, right? I don't find that mechanic (or the analogous one in Combat Commander) to be very wargamey. If I want to play a game where I can only do things based on what I have drawn, I'll play Tigris & Euphrates, Liberte, Taj Mahal, or Pandemic.

Similarly, Twilight Struggle is not very wargamey in what you are doing in the game. It's a good area majority game, but has only the thinnest thread of wargame essence.

Dan, based on what I know, I would highly recommend Advanced Squad Leader: Starter Kit #1, Fighting Formations: Grossdeutschland Motorized Infantry Division, Napoleon's Triumph, A Victory Lost, and FAB: The Bulge.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 8:33 am
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Mikhail Kruzhkov
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Thanks for a very interesting article. I share many of your thoughts, but unfortunately some of these barriers are just unbreakable for some people.

I am not a wargamer, but I'm really attracted to this genre. The most forbidding barrier for me is the game length. But it doesn't mean that I think that long games are not enjoyable, I would really enjoy them given enough time. The problem is that we just don't have time required to play most of them. Me and my wife (add two little boys to that), we usually have no more than 1,5-2 hours to play games each night, so it's not about 1 wargame vs. 3-4 eurogames, it's usually several fillers vs. 1 more meaty game. And this situation is not likely to change in the foreseeable future. That's why all I can look forward now is lighter, shorter wargames. We tried Richard III: The Wars of the Roses, and that was quite interesting, and soon are going to take a shot at For Honor and Glory: War of 1812 Land and Naval Battles. But in general, unfortunately there are very few wargames available for us. And that's a pity.
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  • Edited Mon May 16, 2011 9:07 am
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ekted wrote:
...If I want to play a game where I can only do things based on what I have drawn, I'll play Tigris & Euphrates, Liberte, Taj Mahal, or Pandemic.

Similarly, Twilight Struggle is not very wargamey...


Commands & Colours; Ancients

From a game experience point of view, the cards make for a much better game. If you could readily activate everything every turn as in many wargames, CCA would totally bog down into an easily calculable battlefield, thus take away of the games major strong points (play time) and I am absolutely certain that every game would end up playing out, much the same. The whole beauty of CCA is the actual planning, because there are so many more eventualities you have to prepare for, as opposed to many other games where you KNOW you can at least move something out of the way, before charging with something more powerful.

It works as a wonderful balancing mechanism because all those green/light units can be activated much more often due to the presence of many cards that activate green units. Thus their mobility actually means that they become much more usable than some of the heavy hitters. This, because mobility is much more important in this game, than it seems at first. The normal approach would be to find the unit that rolls the most dice and try and stomp them about the board to the best of your abilities and this turn out to be a less than plausible strategy in many scenarios.
AWESOME!

I've seen many comparisons between Memoir and CCA, but the cards seem to be the only thing that really connects these games once people start digging into the mechanics and the tactics of them. Many people seem to think that you can play memoir as a way to learn the basic mechanics, but when buying a game for keeps, CCA is the one to turn to.

I can understand why some would consider the limited choices presented through cards as a disadvantage and somewhat euro-like, but considering you are "waging war" some problems guiding your troops using flags and trumpets might actually not be a bad thing for the whole experience. If you decide you want total divine control of the battlefield, then I can understand why one would scoff at the notion of cards dictating your battle line, but if you can accept the "fog of war" I think this is the absolutely best way to simulate a battle without the need for 100 pages of rules and a whole evening worth of gaming. Which brings us back to the entry games. This thing plays fast, is actually fun, is very exciting and is not snakes-and-ladders/RISK like in its playstyle.

The relation between CCA and pandemic is non-existent. Both games have cards, but so do poker. I've played both and I think one cheats oneself of a high quality gaming experience if one scoffs at CCA for including cards on the basis on a comparison with Pandemic. (bad syntax?)

Twilight Struggle
I can agree on TS not being a wargame in the traditional sense where you stomp about with dragons and/or tanks and lay waste to little chits or painted 28 mm dolls. But any wargame I've seen played on a competitive level is actually about area control. Armies with better movement often have some distinct advantages if terrain is any hindrance to regular troop movement at all.
Now TS plays on map resembling the world, but if it was a battle field separated with rivers than could only be crossed in certain spots and influence was a matter of bolstering morale in your troops and the cards weren't related to actual political events but had awesome belligerent naming like "gas strike"/muslim revolution, "traitors"/Independent Reds or "scouting units"/warszaw pact, then I am certain everyone would agree it was a wargame.

What TS DOES have, is the wargames' planning, the setup and usage of rules interactions and direct conflict. You are actually trying to win without bombing anything, which might seem odd if you play wargames for the sake of leveling cities with nukes, but the whole setup, planning, playing, reading, understanding and usage of the game and its rules are quite related to wargames. You can't just think one or two steps ahead, you need to know how to sandbag those access points into SE Asia and Africa long in advance. You need to prepare for some deep strikes and can't just react once your opponent does something clever. You need to line up troops long in advance and this aspect, I find, reminds me a lot more about Warmachine and Warhammer Fantasy than it does Caylus and Agricola (to mention some regular euros placed about as high as CCA and TS).

Slightly off topic: The whole TS is not a wargame debate on BGG seems to rely on the lack of militant looking playing pieces. I can understand why some would think it wasn't a wargame, but does it matter what we label it with on our high score lists?
If you want an introduction on how to think and approach wargames, I don't think it's a bad choice at all.

Note I am talking about entry games. Not OMG-how-awesome-is-the-most-awesome-wargame-ever.
I am talking about getting people to play, understand and appreciate the aspects of wargaming, using entry games not dumbed unecessarily down, but credible games in their own right.
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  • Edited Mon May 16, 2011 10:19 am
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This article is simply fantastic. Thank you so much Jim, really well put together and very close to my current gaming heart, so I found it super topical on a personal level. Awesome contribution!
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 10:15 am
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Stunke wrote:
Question is: will non-wargamers read this topic?


Based on a sample size of one: Yes.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 10:16 am
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ellephai wrote:
Stunke wrote:
Question is: will non-wargamers read this topic?


Based on a sample size of one: Yes.


+1
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 10:30 am
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Stunke wrote:

Question is: will non-wargamers read this topic?


Well I am not sure I class as a non-wargamer. I see myself as an omni-gamer.

However when it comes to wargames my likes are very much on the gamey end of the wargame spectrum.

This is why I enjoy C&C:A and a lot of the block games plus a few others. They seemed to be designed for effect and have fairly compact rules. I guess I prefer my complexity to be emergent from relatively simple rules.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 11:33 am
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ekted wrote:
The wargame decision space is too open: Consider a game like Ra. On your turn, you have two choices: draw a tile, or invoke Ra. Even if you have no idea what's best, the choices are obvious. In a wargame, you might have dozens of units, each with different characteristics, positions, facings, etc. Combine this with all of the possible interactions with every other unit on the board, and the choices seem almost limitless. I suppose it's analogous to a person who has never played an RPG. The GM doesn't ask, "Do you want to move or attack?" The GM simply inquires, "What do you want to do?" It IS wide open, and that's a good thing. You can make plans, attempt to execute them, and adapt to changing circumstances.


This is what makes wargames either so appealing or so intimidating and is also a primary reason why they take so much longer to play. There are a few Euros that do this well, but most are very limited.

Another Barrier: Lack of Imagination. If you can't "see" the battlefield and your men and steel in your mind as you push around the cardboard then wargames are much less appealing.

Re: Intolerance for randomness - you have to like "push your luck" games and playing odds in order to enjoy wargames. If you don't, you won't.

Re: "Jumping into the deep end." If you aren't interested in history, then you will have a much harder time getting over the "hump". Pick a period of history you are interested in and research the games that cover that period. Play those.

There are very few wargames that involve trading in the Med.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 11:33 am
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fubar awol wrote:

There are very few wargames that involve trading in the Med.


unless you think of it as trading lead in the med theatre...
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 11:51 am
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Thanks a lot for this excellent article. For us who are at the barrier or on the other side, your thought out arguments are very useful.
I have played only 1989 Dawn of Freedom, Memoir 44 and El Grande . I love history and have always been interested in experiencing how wargames recreate events and certain scenarios. However, as a eurogamer, have always kind of kept distance from the this genre.

When I play 1989 on wargameroom.com, I always play with wonderful guys who are very helpful and fun to play with.
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  • Edited Mon May 16, 2011 12:50 pm
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Can you expound on why TTR and Settlers are not good intro board games? I have used them both to introduce non-gamers. You did an excellent job on the barriers to war game article and I'd like to hear more about the TTR/Settlers issue.

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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 1:48 pm
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Will Marshall
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I kind of disagree in that I think gateway games can be useful. However, I think it's silly to buy a game that lacks re-playability and depth, regardless of the game weight.

I bought Washington's War and Paths of Glory and played the former first - I found learning Paths of Glory was easier after getting on top of the concepts in Washington's War, which is definitely less complex as far as the rules go. However Washington's War is as good a game as Paths of Glory in my opinion and has hit the table plenty, largely due to the faster play time. I feel like it has plenty of depth and satisfies a different niche than Paths of Glory, so it's both a gateway game and a really good long term purchase.

We've also played Twilight Struggle and C&C: Ancients, and I think both of those have exposed us to more complex games without becoming at all redundant. So if we define gateway games as games that expose the player to a set or subset of game mechanics associated with a particular game category, I think their depth or quality isn't necessarily diminished by a lack of complexity.

I do agree that there are games which will not hold interest long term (particularly as far as Euro games go) which I would advise steering clear of. I won't ever recommend Settlers to anyone because I think there are better versions of that kind of game at a comparative complexity level which will last longer. I can happily recommend to someone a game like Small World which I think is a great game for both new and experienced players with a lot of expandability and is a good entry point for new board gamers. I wouldn't suggest someone starts with a game like Le Havre or Through the Ages, though. I've taught a lot of new games to people and I think games like Navegador or Stone Age are fine "gateway games" while providing plenty of fun for players at most levels of experience.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 2:05 pm
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Good article indeed and thought provoking.

Maybe it's my frustration talking after a failed 1st attempt to go through the rulebook of Washington's War over the weekend, but i can't help feeling that you are preaching to the converted here.

I think (with my very limited experience) that wargames have "refused" to adapt i.e. in terms of complexity and length in order to get more people on board.

I tried to find a wargame that are of short length and relatively low complexity. Washington's War was supposed to be it (according to GMT!) and it is anything but, at least after 1 read.

Sometimes it feels like wargamers and wargames want to be an underground part of boardgamers. Unlike their eurogame brothers
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 3:10 pm
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ekted wrote:
[q="Morganza"]
Also, I find game nights with 2 or more tables to be fully social at some level. There's pre-game pizza and chatting, picking games, listening to each other's screams and curses of frustration, checking out each other's games on the way by, etc.


This is absolutely true. SNEW (Southern New England Wargamers), the monthly wargame session that I host, is without a doubt the most social game group I'm involved with and we play a ton of two player games. There are often times where everyone is chatting away and I feel I need to poke people to get them to start playing games!
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 3:34 pm
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One BIG issue towards the 'entry level' is whether you have someone
to teach you the game. It's a lot tougher facing 20+ pages of rules
alone - but some of these games with decent amounts of rules can
be taught to most people. Games like ASL and SFB come to mind -
you just don't even need all of it. I played Combat Commander:
Pacific Saturday, and it strikes me as similar - the rules looked
fairly intimidating, but with a person who knew the game teaching
it, it took less than half an hour to get into.

The guy who taught me plays it regularly with his (I'd guess 8 or
9 year old) grandson.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 3:39 pm
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Edwin Nealley
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Terrific post!

I would classify myself as a cross-platform gamer; I've played RPG's in the past but don't have a group or the time currently (so that's not happening), I play Euros a lot (as much because of the reduced time requirements as anything), I play card games even more (even less time to setup/take down), and I play Wargames when I can.

These barriers definitely exist for me- if I setup a Wargame which I am unlikely to finish in a weekend, I have to have a space where I can leave it set up until it can be finished. Currently there's only one in my house, and it happens to be filled with paperwork, so no Wargaming until that's cleared away.

As far as simplified wargames go, I'd say you almost have to approach a Weuro game (e.g., Waterloo), a relatively simple CDG (C&C), or a block game (Hammer of the Scots) to simplify the rules down to a minimal level, without all the chrome. I think Yalu does it pretty well, but there are lots of really complicated games out there which can be utterly overwhelming.

I loved your comparison of the RftG card with the wargame (say ASL or PanzerBlitz) counter - they sum up the powers and abilities of a unit at a glance to the trained eye, but they can be a frightening mess of data if you are not.

How would you compare wargames with heavier Economic games, say 18xx? Both came out of Avalon Hill (well, at least 1830 did), and both take a much longer time period and have a greater depth of complexity. I'd be interested to read what people think on that topic.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 3:45 pm
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herendil66 wrote:


How would you compare wargames with heavier Economic games, say 18xx? Both came out of Avalon Hill (well, at least 1830 did), and both take a much longer time period and have a greater depth of complexity. I'd be interested to read what people think on that topic.


18XX doesn't compare to heavier wargames - its mechanisms are closer
to those of a heavy euro. Indeed, it's shorter than Civilization,
which strikes me as one of the earlier games to really catch onto the
core concepts which euros are designed on, prior to the real coalescing
of the genre.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 3:57 pm
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Zolos wrote:
Good article indeed and thought provoking.

Maybe it's my frustration talking after a failed 1st attempt to go through the rulebook of Washington's War over the weekend, but i can't help feeling that you are preaching to the converted here.

I think (with my very limited experience) that wargames have "refused" to adapt i.e. in terms of complexity and length in order to get more people on board.

I tried to find a wargame that are of short length and relatively low complexity. Washington's War was supposed to be it (according to GMT!) and it is anything but, at least after 1 read.

Sometimes it feels like wargamers and wargames want to be an underground part of boardgamers. Unlike their eurogame brothers


As a mostly wargamer (with an interest in AT), I would say that wargamers don't necessarily want to be an underground part of boardgaming, but that there is only so much compromising a wargamer can do regarding rules complexity before the game is no longer a wargame, but simply a war-themed game. The unavoidable truth is that for wargamers to buy into a game being marketed as a 'wargame', there is a minimum level (subjective, to be sure) of simulation value required of the design. To achieve that level of simulation, which usually requires the game to model its subject such that it evokes decisions and outcomes which are historically plausible, almost always requires the use of a certain amount of special rules and other chrome. To simplify the game beyond that minimum level is to remove the simulationist aspect of the game and reduce it to a mere boardgame with a pasted-on 'war' theme. The point - for a boardgame to be a wargame, it will require a certain amount of detail and complexity, and this gets communicated through the rules.

Having said all of this, certainly some games have better written rules than others! It is possible to convey a complex concept clearly, and too many wargames struggle with this part.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 4:00 pm
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Zolos wrote:
Maybe it's my frustration talking after a failed 1st attempt to go through the rulebook of Washington's War over the weekend, but i can't help feeling that you are preaching to the converted here.

Maybe so, but don't dismiss it all just because of WW. I play a few wargames (and used to play a lot more), so I'm comfortable with the complexity, but Mark Herman's game rules just don't work for me. I've read up on WW and played Hannibal: Rome vs. Carthage and Empire of the Sun, and there's just some fundamental disconnect for me, where I have to keep looking up and re-looking up the same thing and not getting anywhere past the "struggle with the rules" stage of the game. I'm sure other people would list other designers as examples of this.

By way of contrast, I immediately grokked Ted Raicer's Paths of Glory and World War II: Barbarossa to Berlin, both more complex (I think) than WW, but much easier for me to get moving with. Also, side benefit: Twilight Struggle (not really a wargame) and Shifting Sands (basically same core system) were cakewalks, rule-wise.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 4:19 pm
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Zolos wrote:
I tried to find a wargame that are of short length and relatively low complexity. Washington's War was supposed to be it (according to GMT!) and it is anything but, at least after 1 read.


There are simpler wargames. (And so of course some purists say they are not "real" wargames. Perhaps they are hybrids; whatever.)

You might have a look at Friedrich (it's 3 or 4-player, not 2-player though). Simpler rules than a traditional wargame.

And there's 2 de Mayo, which is not only simpler than a traditional wargame but also much shorter (20 or 30 minutes max).

If you're willing to track down Ogre, it's a more traditional style (but science fiction theme) classic old wargame that's short and simple. (An expensive big-box reprint is coming later this year; the original was only $2.95 in 1977!)

In any case there are definitely other simple entry level wargames as well. (I know there has been at least one geeklist about that...) They're just typically not the most famous/popular since the mainstream wargamer audience is already comfortable with and interested in more complex rules, I would say.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 4:20 pm
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desertfox2004 wrote:
Zolos wrote:
Good article indeed and thought provoking.

Maybe it's my frustration talking after a failed 1st attempt to go through the rulebook of Washington's War over the weekend, but i can't help feeling that you are preaching to the converted here.

I think (with my very limited experience) that wargames have "refused" to adapt i.e. in terms of complexity and length in order to get more people on board.

I tried to find a wargame that are of short length and relatively low complexity. Washington's War was supposed to be it (according to GMT!) and it is anything but, at least after 1 read.

Sometimes it feels like wargamers and wargames want to be an underground part of boardgamers. Unlike their eurogame brothers


As a mostly wargamer (with an interest in AT), I would say that wargamers don't necessarily want to be an underground part of boardgaming, but that there is only so much compromising a wargamer can do regarding rules complexity before the game is no longer a wargame, but simply a war-themed game. The unavoidable truth is that for wargamers to buy into a game being marketed as a 'wargame', there is a minimum level (subjective, to be sure) of simulation value required of the design. To achieve that level of simulation, which usually requires the game to model its subject such that it evokes decisions and outcomes which are historically plausible, almost always requires the use of a certain amount of special rules and other chrome. To simplify the game beyond that minimum level is to remove the simulationist aspect of the game and reduce it to a mere boardgame with a pasted-on 'war' theme. The point - for a boardgame to be a wargame, it will require a certain amount of detail and complexity, and this gets communicated through the rules.

Having said all of this, certainly some games have better written rules than others! It is possible to convey a complex concept clearly, and too many wargames struggle with this part.


There's something VERY disturbing about the tendency to label things
wargames, that most wargamers wouldn't admit are such.

Too, rules just aren't the easiest way for most people to get 'into'
the hobby - many people are better off being taught. The problem is,
there are fewer active grognards, than the hobby once had.

From what I understand, Washington's war is a big step up from the
older We the People. It would be better to start with one of the
simpler games, if you're on your own learning. Most of us old-timers
did.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 4:27 pm
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russ wrote:

If you're willing to track down Ogre, it's a more traditional style (but science fiction theme) classic old wargame that's short and simple. (An expensive big-box reprint is coming later this year; the original was only $2.95 in 1977!)


There are lots of simpler, old-style games in print today, too.
I've been watching some of MarcoWargamer's reviews, and he seems
to specialize in covering these. He's been covering the Napoleonic 20
series, which looks about as light as you can go, in a hex and counter
game.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 4:35 pm
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fubar awol wrote:

Another Barrier: Lack of Imagination. If you can't "see" the battlefield and your men and steel in your mind as you push around the cardboard then wargames are much less appealing.


I don't agree with this at all. I definitely do not "see" the battlefield in the way you describe. I think that this is highly subjective and there are those who do see things that way and some who do not.

I also think that the way you phrase it - you don't get wargames because you lack imagination - is the kind of "I am superior to you" crap that will put some people off trying wargames.

There is a small but vocal minority of wargames who seem actively opposed to growing the number who play wargames. They poo-poo any game that isn't sufficiently simulationist (by which they usually mean "designed for cause"), games that are a-historical, and games that are too simple.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 4:39 pm
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The question I have is wondering why this blog keeps showing up in my files. I have not subscribed, and the "subscribe" key is still showing when I come here, further suggesting that I have not subscribed.

So is it someone from BGG creating the spam or the author?

 
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 4:42 pm
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Michael Edwards
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ekted wrote:
That's why I would never recommend Ticket to Ride or Settlers to anyone interested in gaming in general; they give a false impression, and teach all the wrong things.


Hmm. I see what you are driving at - they may not be the prime example of the type of games you might be trying to teach. I do think they are fairly representative of euro's (but perhaps not gamer's game euro's). Still, I got introduced by Settlers, found it amazing, and don't think it it taught me all the wrong things - but I was already a gamer.

I think, in regards to gateway games, I'm in the camp that folks are what they are, and you don't "convert" them, merely expose them, so those games are fine. It seems there are a lot of social euro players, who's primary goal (far and away) is to socialize. There are those who are more gamers, who love to concentrate on a game of Power Grid, but I think that's their personally type to begin with.

Likewise, I think wargamers aren't made - just revealed. But yes, there are those on the boarderline who might not get exposed if they can't make it past the barriers. Nice article.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 4:45 pm
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kduke wrote:
The question I have is wondering why this blog keeps showing up in my files. I have not subscribed, and the "subscribe" key is still showing when I come here, further suggesting that I have not subscribed.

So is it someone from BGG creating the spam or the author?


When you look at your subscription list and it shows this blog, it should also show why the blog appeared in your subscription list. (Probably because you're subscribed to one of the games that's mentioned in the blog entry.) I think you may be able to tweak your account preferences for how blog subscriptions work.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 4:45 pm
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andyl wrote:
fubar awol wrote:

Another Barrier: Lack of Imagination. If you can't "see" the battlefield and your men and steel in your mind as you push around the cardboard then wargames are much less appealing.


I don't agree with this at all. I definitely do not "see" the battlefield in the way you describe. I think that this is highly subjective and there are those who do see things that way and some who do not.

I also think that the way you phrase it - you don't get wargames because you lack imagination - is the kind of "I am superior to you" crap that will put some people off trying wargames.


I'd guess it's the feeling that since that's a major piece of many
hobbyists enjoyment, it is difficult to imagine someone enjoying them
as well without it. I know I regularly fall into these faulty theory
of mind issues - not getting why someone might like something just because
I don't see their point of view completely. I've seen enough wargamers
who are more into the competition aspect however, to realize that there
are people who play them for very different reasons than what I do.

Quote:
There is a small but vocal minority of wargames who seem actively opposed to growing the number who play wargames. They poo-poo any game that isn't sufficiently simulationist (by which they usually mean "designed for cause"), games that are a-historical, and games that are too simple.


I'd include myself in this. It may be that the hobby's moved its locus,
and these games are now a significant part - but I'll tell you, when
people start putting Stratego forward as a wargame (which has been done),
I'm pretty sure that ain't the hobby I'm in.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 4:54 pm
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gohrns wrote:
Can you expound on why TTR and Settlers are not good intro board games? I have used them both to introduce non-gamers. You did an excellent job on the barriers to war game article and I'd like to hear more about the TTR/Settlers issue.

I feel that the mantra of euro games (and abstracts) is that "skill wins". I'm not saying there's no skill in TtR or Settlers, just that they are below my personal threshold on the spectrum of skill. Drawing a high-scoring ticket for a route that I've already completed feels like cheating. Rolling my resources 3 times in a row (and none of yours) doesn't make me happy.

Another issue in TtR: Say you are looking to build connections in red, blue, and yellow. What is your "plan"? Your plan is to hope that red, blue, and yellow show up in the card display. If not, you have to draw cards whose usefulness is questionable. This is not fun. Every time I've played, I am bored starting on my first turn.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 5:32 pm
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Interesting. I admit I have a different personal threshold on the spectrum of skill. I certainly admit a game of Setters can have the dice run against you, but I am also certain I win much more often than others of lesser skill. Not that I'm the best Settlers player ever.

In fact, one aspect of many wargames that I don't like so much, is the total knowledge and control of the units. I enjoy wargames that bring fog of war in more - things like units failing to act, or even acting on their own. Not being able to see the enemy, etc. I think there's a lot of luck in battles. Certainly skill plays a large factor - I think better trained troops will "fail better" than their opposition.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 6:01 pm
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ekted wrote:
I feel that the mantra of euro games (and abstracts) is that "skill wins".

Yet many other people claim the mantra of "euro games" is that they are non-competitive "nice" family games with lots of luck so that everyone has a good chance of winning and everyone feels happy...

The "euro" label is kind of uselessly broad since it covers everything from serious "gamer's games" like Power Grid and Caylus to lighter "family games" like Settlers and Carcassonne to even lighter games like Ubongo, depending on who you ask.

It's like the blind men describing an elephant or something.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 6:01 pm
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Chanfan wrote:
In fact, one aspect of many wargames that I don't like so much, is the total knowledge and control of the units.

It depends on the game. Some games hide knowledge with blocks, use hidden units in play, or hidden units off map. Some games control what orders you can give with cards. Some games control what units you can order with cards. Some games control what groups of units you can activate with chit pulls. Some games restrict your ability to use all units with concepts like pinned/suppressed/immobilized/broken. Some games allow for orders getting lost/delayed/confused.

All of the above serve to modify the fun factor and levels of abstraction in various ways for different players. I don't enjoy wargames where I can't do what I want with pretty much all of my good order units, and am happy with the fact that this may not be realistic. I don't mind having "pay a cost" to do something specific (FF). I don't mind being limited in commands (NT). I don't mind not knowing when a specific HQ will be activated (AVL). I don't mind that I don't have a specific asset yet (FAB:B). But when it's time to order a specific unit, then it damn well better do what I want, or it doesn't feel like it's me playing the game.

I could imagine a game where each player is some general sitting safely back at his base, issuing orders by radio, and receiving reports back. Everything is chaos. You have to hope that information survives in both directions. You have to trust that the chain of command is functioning, and that supplies and support are going where they should. But I don't see this game being very different from TtR.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 6:22 pm
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Chanfan wrote:
Interesting. I admit I have a different personal threshold on the spectrum of skill. I certainly admit a game of Setters can have the dice run against you, but I am also certain I win much more often than others of lesser skill. Not that I'm the best Settlers player ever.


The same can be said of Monopoly - I can assure
you, the same set of players usually win (at least if you don't
break the game with house rules).

Quote:
things like units failing to act, or even acting on their own.


I LOVE games that allow for this.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 6:36 pm
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russ wrote:
ekted wrote:
I feel that the mantra of euro games (and abstracts) is that "skill wins".

Yet many other people claim the mantra of "euro games" is that they are non-competitive "nice" family games with lots of luck so that everyone has a good chance of winning and everyone feels happy...

I suppose that's why BGG has Family Games and Strategy Games. But I fail to see the fun in non-competitive games with lots of luck. I'd rather read a book.
 
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 6:37 pm
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I have the same issue with fog of war, though it is handled in different ways. I think I wouldn't be able to take the simulation aspect at all seriously unless there were some serious effort to incorporate a fog of war aspect. Whats the point in having micro detail on your firepower, armour, movement and range if you're both going to sit there seeing where you're moving your chits. I know there are a lot of games where this is handled well, I'm not saying its a generic fault, I'm saying the fact that this aspect is very hard to recreate in cardboard makes me much more willing and open to the idea of abstracted combat systems as per Chad Jensens (CC and FF). I'm really looking forward to trying those. I don't think I necessarily agree with Jim that it's not advantageous to start out at the lighter end, especially with so much concept overlap in rules systems, but I may well change my tune once I'm "in" the club, so to speak. i do think wargames (and other kinds of games not necessarily well represented here, sports sims for example) have a wonderful advantage in the thing Jim mentioned, they're systems of rules, but they have almost infinite decision space, the fun comes in how the players interact and react to each other, the ruleset is just there to moderate the outcome.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 6:41 pm
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ekted wrote:
But I fail to see the fun in non-competitive games with lots of luck. I'd rather read a book.


Social interaction in a fun environment.
Puts you more in the role of actor than just
reading or watching. I'm thinking here most particularly
of some storytelling games.

I WOULDN'T call most family games non-competitive. There are
usually clear strategies which improve your chances of winning.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 6:48 pm
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calandale wrote:
I WOULDN'T call most family games non-competitive. There are usually clear strategies which improve your chances of winning.

Sure, but they feel to me like d6 versus d6 + 1, where 1 is the player with the higher skill. The randomness outweighs the skill to the point where trying is no fun. The game is only balanced by the fact that non-gamers are working hard, and gamers are bored. Compare that to Go, for example. A 20kyu playing a 1dan is like d6 versus d6 + 100.
 
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But they aren't "non-competitive games with lots of luck."

I'm not sure what your position is on competitive games with lots
of luck - it sounds as though you disapprove of them as well.

For me, the pleasure (especially in simulations) has very little
to do with competition. Before I learned there were games which
did a better job of representing some shared reality (fictional
OR historical), I had to settle for really poor representations
(risk; Monopoly) to spark my imagination. Oh, I like winning and
trying to win, but it's more important that interesting things
are happening within a game than that I have some fair shot, or
that it adequately rewards good tactics/planning. Luck drives
interesting things which players might never choose, so I find
I am most attracted to complicated simulations with a lot of luck
in them.

Plus, it's a lot easier to blame failure on loaded dice or uneven
victory conditions than personal incompetence.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 7:39 pm
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calandale wrote:
I'm not sure what your position is on competitive games with lots of luck - it sounds as though you disapprove of them as well.

In the context of this post, my only position is that I think it's a bad idea to bring someone into a game genre (wargames, strategy games, etc.) using games that are not representative of the "goal". If my goal was Combat Commander--and I thought that it was too much for a first game--then I might start with Memoir '44. If my goal was ASL, I would not.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 7:56 pm
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russ wrote:
In any case there are definitely other simple entry level wargames as well. (I know there has been at least one geeklist about that...)

And by coincidence such a geeklist just updated in my subscriptions:
The wargames you could set up and play in less than one hour
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 10:18 pm
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There are a few more good geeklists which might help guide the newbie.

2 player light wargames playlist - add your list
Light wargames - Looking for some suggestions

Some good suggestions on those - albeit there are plenty I haven't played, and probably won't. I don't tend to play modern conflicts.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 10:36 pm
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Great article Jim! We need to get Paths of Glory to the table again.
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  • Posted Tue May 17, 2011 1:38 am
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The Fallen wrote:
So what would you suggest as a first step past Memoir '44? What would be your recommendations for a first "real" wargame?


Conflict of Heroes: Storms of Steel! Kursk 1943

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  • Edited Tue May 17, 2011 1:09 pm
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Great writeup, have some .
 
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Another barrier which you didn't mention yet... You have to want to spend X hours with the other person face to face without much other social interaction and you want to view them as an enemy for that amount of time.

I've found that I can get competitive for a couple hours, but after that it's way harder to stay competitive and my interest wanes.

My ideal limit of 1v1 competition lasts about as long as it takes to play the best of 3 MTG games.
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  • Edited Wed May 18, 2011 7:32 am
  • Posted Wed May 18, 2011 7:31 am
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Aldie wrote:
and you want to view them as an enemy for that amount of time.

That seems true of any long competitive game, right? I.e. if it's a barrier to wargames, it's also a barrier to a lot of nonwargames also.

Quote:
My ideal limit of 1v1 competition lasts about as long as it takes to play the best of 3 MTG games.

Interesting - I guess I don't feel a strong difference (in terms of emotional barrier) between being competitive in a game with 1 opponent for a few hours vs being competitive with several opponents in a game for a few hours.
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Aldie wrote:
Another barrier which you didn't mention yet... You have to want to spend X hours with the other person face to face without much other social interaction and you want to view them as an enemy for that amount of time.


"Enemy"? No. Opponent. Big difference. As for social interaction, well when I play a 2-player wargame there is almost always chatting and trash-talking going on as well. It isn't a world chess championship. Also, more often than not the wargames I play face to face are more than 2-player.

Aldie wrote:
I've found that I can get competitive for a couple hours, but after that it's way harder to stay competitive and my interest wanes.


Well, that's a different problem!
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  • Posted Wed May 18, 2011 1:00 pm
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wifwendell wrote:


"Enemy"? No. Opponent. Big difference. As for social interaction, well when I play a 2-player wargame there is almost always chatting and trash-talking going on as well. It isn't a world chess championship. Also, more often than not the wargames I play face to face are more than 2-player.


As a fairly non-competitive gamer, I go even further. Technically, yes,
they are opponents (those few times I'm not alone), but I game with
others primarily for the social aspect - one of the few activities
I can bear others around for.

Like Wendell, I tend to prefer multi-player games; two player
wargames are a little too intimate to share with someone I
don't really really like.
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  • Posted Wed May 18, 2011 2:01 pm
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Wow - What a great article! As others have pointed out, this was well-reasoned and thought out. Your post is much better than many features I've read in professional industry publications. A war game company should consider using this article to inform potential customers. It's made me think. Thank for sharing.
 
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I guess I view my opponents (and even teammates) in games not as enemies, but as participants in an experiment to see how far we can push the rules of the system to accomplish its goals. I feel no different about my opponents in Race or Go or ASL.
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  • Posted Wed May 18, 2011 7:20 pm
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The lighter a game, the more competitive I'll become, and the
more likely to taunt or trash-talk.

Go is an exception - I treat it with the same seriousness
as I would a wargame - which is to say non-competitive, closer
to Jim's stance.

But, if I'm playing Hearts (or worse asshole), I'll pull all
the stops out and do what it takes to win.
 
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  • Posted Wed May 18, 2011 7:28 pm
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A big barrier of entry for me is not the rules, per se, but errata and exceptions. I can handle complex rules with lots of moving pieces but when I have to start remembering exceptions and which rules were added and which were removed it starts to feel like work and mistakes can easily compound.
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  • Edited Thu May 19, 2011 2:10 pm
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Mease19 wrote:
A big barrier of entry for me is not the rules, per se, but errata and exceptions. I can handle complex rules with lots of moving pieces but when I have to start remembering exceptions and which rules were added and which were removed it starts to feel like work and mistakes can easily compound.


Errata can be cribbed into the rules, if it's not extensive.

Lack of appropriate indexing and cross-referencing is what kills me.
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  • Posted Thu May 19, 2011 3:54 pm
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Mease19 wrote:
A big barrier of entry for me is not the rules, per se, but errata and exceptions. I can handle complex rules with lots of moving pieces but when I have to start remembering exceptions and which rules were added and which were removed it starts to feel like work and mistakes can easily compound.


I agree. I really enjoy the wargames with very consistent and intuitive systems. Combat Commander, Conflict of Heroes, and Hannibal: Rome vs. Carthage all sit well with me. These Design for Effect games always seem to be easier to learn and play but still retain realistic simulative qualities.

The worst example of a wargame rulebook for me is The Napoleonic Wars (2nd Edition). That thing is so filled with exceptions that don't need to be there I nearly tore my hair out reading it. I've only ever played it once, even though I really really like the concept! I just can't bring myself to try and re-learn it. The way the author structures the sentences is often very awkward to figure them out.
 
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Bridger wrote:
The worst example of a wargame rulebook for me is The Napoleonic Wars (2nd Edition).

I had a strangely hard time wrapping my head around that one as well. I can't quite articulate why; it seemed like each sentence was clear, but somehow the big picture just wasn't quite jelling or something. Still haven't played it...
 
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russ wrote:
Bridger wrote:
The worst example of a wargame rulebook for me is The Napoleonic Wars (2nd Edition).

I had a strangely hard time wrapping my head around that one as well. I can't quite articulate why; it seemed like each sentence was clear, but somehow the big picture just wasn't quite jelling or something. Still haven't played it...


I REGULARLY face this issue with GMT's multi-player CDGs.

Here I Stand was pretty easy, but most have left me not sure
what the game was even about without pushing through it.

Played Wilderness War recently - for the first time - and that
was not too difficult. But these games where each power has special
rules and decks? GMT's format just isn't disciplined enough to handle
these, IMO.
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  • Posted Thu May 19, 2011 5:11 pm
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calandale wrote:


There are lots of simpler, old-style games in print today, too.
I've been watching some of MarcoWargamer's reviews, and he seems
to specialize in covering these.


yes I do, precisely because I hope to help people who are casually watching my videos to make the transition by playing fun, non-threatening wargames that are light as some euros and yet still 100% wargame-y.

Napoleonic 20 is definitely a great place to start. If one can get his hands on a copy of Gettysburg: 125th Anniversary Edition or the more recent Storm Over Stalingrad then that's an even easier way to get a sense of the wargame thing.
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  • Posted Sat May 21, 2011 2:44 am
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Aldie wrote:
You have to want to spend X hours with the other person face to face without much other social interaction and you want to view them as an enemy for that amount of time.



I have to disagree. When I play wargames I chat a lot with my opponent, and very often we get engaged in historical discussions about the subject of the game (assuming it's something we know something about). Pizza breaks and beer breaks often are de rigeur. What draws me and my opponent(s) to historical wargames is often a COMMON interest for the events portrayed, so whenever possible we allow for some extra time at the end of the game to study map and strategy together, go through the moves we made, etc. I find that wargaming has WAY more social interaction then many euros (played 7 Wonders recently, to name one). If you're interested in the topic, in wargames you are mainly creating a narrative by interacting with the opponent, really.
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  • Edited Sun May 22, 2011 2:58 am
  • Posted Sat May 21, 2011 2:54 am
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waddball wrote:
Zolos wrote:
Maybe it's my frustration talking after a failed 1st attempt to go through the rulebook of Washington's War over the weekend, but i can't help feeling that you are preaching to the converted here.

Maybe so, but don't dismiss it all just because of WW. I play a few wargames (and used to play a lot more), so I'm comfortable with the complexity, but Mark Herman's game rules just don't work for me. I've read up on WW and played Hannibal: Rome vs. Carthage and Empire of the Sun, and there's just some fundamental disconnect for me, where I have to keep looking up and re-looking up the same thing and not getting anywhere past the "struggle with the rules" stage of the game. I'm sure other people would list other designers as examples of this.

By way of contrast, I immediately grokked Ted Raicer's Paths of Glory and World War II: Barbarossa to Berlin, both more complex (I think) than WW, but much easier for me to get moving with. Also, side benefit: Twilight Struggle (not really a wargame) and Shifting Sands (basically same core system) were cakewalks, rule-wise.


It's funny, I have the same problem with WW. The rules are actually fairly simple but each rule works slightly different for the Brits than it does for Americans (e.g. movement allowance, placing reinforcements, retrieving discards, placing influence, attrition, campaign cards, battle modifiers, etc). I think the player's aids here on BGG do a wonderful job of making the game more playable.
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  • Posted Mon May 23, 2011 2:44 am
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Aldie wrote:
Another barrier which you didn't mention yet... You have to want to spend X hours with the other person face to face without much other social interaction and you want to view them as an enemy for that amount of time.

I've found that I can get competitive for a couple hours, but after that it's way harder to stay competitive and my interest wanes.

My ideal limit of 1v1 competition lasts about as long as it takes to play the best of 3 MTG games.


What!! my goading wouldn't keep you keen?

But you're right Scott. Wargaming is still a social interaction. You need to like the other person, even if it is in a "What a bastard!" capacity

 
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  • Edited Mon May 23, 2011 10:42 pm
  • Posted Mon May 23, 2011 10:41 pm
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"in wargames you are mainly creating a narrative by interacting with the opponent, really."

Couldn't agree more! This aspect is one of the defining elements of a good game, and opponent. If someone doesn't 'buy in' to the process of locating the game's events within a developing narrative arc it really cuts the legs from under it ...

What I enjoy most in a game are its blend of rule-governed creativity and narrative progression, and wargames generally ace these aspects.
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  • Posted Mon May 30, 2011 11:44 am
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If sufficiently motivated, one can start with ANY wargame. When I was thirteen or so, I spotted WORLD IN FLAMES in a shop. I had to have it and it was, IIRC, the first wargame I got into. It introduced me to all the staple wargaming concepts and I had fun solitairing WW2 with it.

However, my efforts to introduce my friends to it, flopped. Really didn't quite appreciate that there were FAR FAR simpler wargames infinitely better suited to teaching the game. For WIF, you really need to have read the rules and be motivated to that level. In my own enthusiasm, I didn't quite appreciate that.

Much better suited to such an environment were games like AH CIVILIZATION or BRITANNIA, as I had learnt as a result of this misadventure.

BOTTOM LINE: By all means, jump in as deep as you like, if you (and your fellow players!) are motivated to that level. But there are of course plenty of excellent low-complexity wargames out there, which aren't mere "gateways", but great games in their own right.

The main reason why the notion of "gateway wargames" is out there, is that people recommending games to wargame neophytes rarely have a good picture of what motivation/stamina such new adepts might have. So recommendations verge on the safe side. Which is of course most understandable, but shouldn't keep someone going for a more complex game if so truly inclined.
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  • Posted Tue May 31, 2011 12:28 pm
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marnaudo wrote:
I find that wargaming has WAY more social interaction then many euros


Yes. By their very nature, wargames are highly interactive whereas with many "serious" euros, I get a sense of "multiplayer solitaire". You're puzzling away at your own little empire/business/whatnot with comparatively little player interaction.

This of course has much to do that euros are often geared towards families or other heterogenous groups. So you wouldn't want weaker players to be massively clobbered, as that might lessen the fun for everyone involved.

I think that's the reason why for instance player interaction in Settlers is so muted (robber, trades and adversarial construction are all quite tame). This really helps introduce the game to children of a young age...

Wargames are way "nastier". It's "Take That!" play up the wazoo! It's a far more direct battle of wits. Personally I find that sort of play far more challenging (and hence way more satisfying) than the usually quite tame world of euros.

Coupled by the way more visceral/thematic feel wargames typically provide, my ideal gaming experience revolves round wargames.

That is not to say that euros can't be a blast. It's just that they're more like opening dishes to me. Tasty, but simply not as nourishing as the wargaming main course. And probably this is why many more serious gamers progress from euros to wargames at some point of their gaming life.
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  • Posted Tue May 31, 2011 12:43 pm
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charlesf wrote:


Wargames are way "nastier". It's "Take That!" play up the wazoo! It's a far more direct battle of wits. Personally I find that sort of play far more challenging (and hence way more satisfying) than the usually quite tame world of euros.


There's little nastier than a game of 18xx - especially
those semi-inspired by 1830. I wouldn't quite call these games
'euros' but they share a lot in terms of design and style.

Similarly with games like Dip - which feel a lot more like euros
than they do wargames.

Honestly, I'm used to more competitive/aggressive play in
games I wouldn't consider wargames. Maybe that's just the nature
of the wargamers I'm used to - we've always been more interested
in playing, and seeing what happens than winning. I've played with
a few of the competitive sort, and it's not a great mix. It seems
silly when you're spending days (or more) on a game to be really
picky about little mistakes.
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  • Posted Tue May 31, 2011 4:33 pm
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calandale wrote:
charlesf wrote:


Wargames are way "nastier". It's "Take That!" play up the wazoo! It's a far more direct battle of wits. Personally I find that sort of play far more challenging (and hence way more satisfying) than the usually quite tame world of euros.


There's little nastier than a game of 18xx - especially
those semi-inspired by 1830. I wouldn't quite call these games
'euros' but they share a lot in terms of design and style.

Similarly for Age of Steam. Not to mention many games widely considered obviously 'euros' like Caylus or Power Grid. They are a direct battle of wits with plenty of nastiness and strategizing. (And indeed a newbie is far more likely to get beaten by an experienced player than in many wargames.)

The word "euro" is a vague ambiguous term covering everything from serious gamer's games like Caylus to light family games. And games like Carcassonne, which are ambiguously sometimes aimed at the light family market, yet can be played quite competitively and nastily. And so in wargame threads the "euro" label often gets tossed around derisively as if "tame" euros are somehow incompatible with competition and skill and strategy etc.

It's a strange and all-too-prevalent generalization/stereotype that seems analogous to someone claiming all wargames are unrealistic dicefests like Risk or Axis & Allies.
 
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  • Posted Tue May 31, 2011 6:16 pm
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18xx and Diplomacy aren't euros. They're from the American school of boardgame design. As are wargames.

Of course there are true Euros that have a lot of "take that". But most do not, whereas wargames are all about inflicting harm on your opponent.

That's my basic point.
 
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  • Posted Fri Jun 3, 2011 11:40 pm
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I think that wargame fans often tend to equate "competitive/aggressive play" with "attacking and eliminating enemy units" and sometimes have a blind spot to competitive/aggressive play which doesn't involve attacking and eliminating enemy units. Most so-called euros I've played are certainly played competitively and aggressively. But since they don't involve blowing stuff up, somehow people see them as non-competitive.

If some people don't play them competitively, that's a function of the player group culture, not the game. E.g. we once had a girl start crying in a game of Carcassonne due to a "mean" move... it was an awkward moment... apparently she and her boyfriend always "played nice" and never did legal and strategically useful things like steal control of a city or make an opponent's big city unfinishable etc.

And similarly I've seen stories of wargamers being upset at their opponent for being too "competitive/aggressive" and focused on winning the "battle of wits" instead of playing for history or simulation or experience or "just for fun".
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  • Posted Sat Jun 4, 2011 12:27 am
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charlesf wrote:
18xx and Diplomacy aren't euros. They're from the American school of boardgame design. As are wargames.



Hmm...I never considered Francis Tresham terribly American.
And frankly, his designs were VERY different from anything
coming out of the US.
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  • Posted Sat Jun 4, 2011 12:49 am
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russ wrote:


And similarly I've seen stories of wargamers being upset at their opponent for being too "competitive/aggressive" and focused on winning the "battle of wits" instead of playing for history or simulation or experience or "just for fun".


Precisely. Since I've been in the hobby, it's been in (at least)
two schools - those who prefer a great deal of historical accuracy
and tend not to care all that much about winning (though they may
still disgust themselves with mistakes), and those who more desire
a balanced fair competitive game. Now, my experience of pure euro
gamers is less, but what I've seen of these, they tend far closer
to that second, more competitive group.

I've seen signs of another type of euro gamer - one who's more
into the 'fun' side of gaming, not so much worrying about the
strategy. These gamers strike me as closer to the family style
of gamer.

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  • Posted Sat Jun 4, 2011 12:55 am
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calandale wrote:

Hmm...I never considered Francis Tresham terribly American.
And frankly, his designs were VERY different from anything
coming out of the US.


His work is typical non-wargame Avalon Hill stuff. Nothing a German publisher would have released in the day.
 
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  • Posted Sat Jun 4, 2011 6:40 pm
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russ wrote:
But since they don't involve blowing stuff up, somehow people see them as non-competitive.


Err... no. Let's take Puerto Rico. Its interaction is there, but mild in comparison to what you have in a wargame.

And when it comes to German family games like Settlers, well, the interaction/nastiness is purposefully tame. Arguably done so, that weaker players aren't stomped on.

Gamers' games tend to have more of that. But it's often de-emphasised in SdJ-type euros.
 
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  • Posted Sat Jun 4, 2011 6:43 pm
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charlesf wrote:
calandale wrote:

Hmm...I never considered Francis Tresham terribly American.
And frankly, his designs were VERY different from anything
coming out of the US.


His work is typical non-wargame Avalon Hill stuff. Nothing a German publisher would have released in the day.


I strongly disagree. I have quite a number of
AH non-wargames, and none feel the least like
either Civilization nor the 18xx series. First of all,
most of them include a heavy luck factor - Tresham designs
are notorious for excluding this nearly entirely.

Now, when I look at civ's mechanisms, I see very
similar ones taken by many later euros. XX is largely
still in a league of its own - not so much with the
tile laying, which euros jumped all over as a concept,
but the stock holding and manipulation which exists
in xx (there are HINTS of this being incorporated in
euros like Imperial - more akin to '29 than
the nastiness of '30).

I'm not entirely certain what makes a euro a euro, but an
argument I've heard is that it's the tight design, leaving
most results more in the players' control than in luck. In this,
the Tresham games (and Diplomacy) excel. I'll grant that the
mechanisms in XX are more complex than most euros (as are those
another of his designs, Revolution: The Dutch Revolt 1568-1648),
but they feel more akin to the complexity difference which developed
in the wargaming community between the 'classics' and those
(even smaller ones) designed during/after the 'monster era'.

 
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  • Edited Sat Jun 4, 2011 6:59 pm
  • Posted Sat Jun 4, 2011 6:58 pm
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charlesf wrote:


And when it comes to German family games like Settlers, well, the interaction/nastiness is purposefully tame. Arguably done so, that weaker players aren't stomped on.

.


Eh? Settler's is kinda my prime comparison point.
Players are purposefully cutting access to resources
from one another. Now, in design, I'm not saying that's
inherently any more competitive than a wargame - it's
that the players that I've seen playing it tend to be far
more aggressively concerned with gaining the upper hand
on their opponents than the wargamers in my prior group.
Play that same game of settlers, with the wargamers, and they
would exhibit less competitive behavior, so it's really
the people more than the game. There MAY be euros which
reduce interaction to the point where this is impossible
(in family games, Trivial Pursuit comes to mind) - I haven't
played them (which is no great shock).

Now, speaking JUST from experience of my own play (though I've
seen this in others - just not across the board), the simpler
the game, the more competitive-minded I am. In Empires in Arms,
I find myself more worried about keeping my country alive and healthy,
than about 'winning'. In Settlers, I'm out to win - at any cost.
There's not much OTHER than the game to enjoy.
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  • Posted Sat Jun 4, 2011 7:22 pm
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charlesf wrote:
russ wrote:
But since they don't involve blowing stuff up, somehow people see them as non-competitive.


Err... no. Let's take Puerto Rico. Its interaction is there, but mild in comparison to what you have in a wargame.

Arguably so indeed, but it seems to me that "interaction" is a different concept from whether a game is "challenging" or "nasty" or a "battle of wits". (Although granted, some of these concepts are a bit nebulous...)

Quote:
And when it comes to German family games like Settlers, well, the interaction/nastiness is purposefully tame. Arguably done so, that weaker players aren't stomped on.

Gamers' games tend to have more of that. But it's often de-emphasised in SdJ-type euros.

Which is perfectly consistent with what I said before: the term "euro" is too general/ambiguous/overloaded and describes all kinds of games. Saying that euros are low interaction or low competition or not battles of wits is in a way like saying wargames are about World War 2 tactical combat, or that humans are Europeans.

But anyway, as calandale said, Settlers can be played quite competitively and nastily. (And I've been in plenty of games of it that were so. Cutting off people's possible avenues of growth, always putting the robber on them, refusing to trade with them, etc.)

Basically, if you can affect other players in the game, then you can play the game competitively/aggressively and use your wits against the other players.

"Family games" like Settlers and SdJ winners have the reputation of not having explicit "nastiness" in them in the sense of it being harder or impossible to directly destroy the opponent's assets. But that hardly implies that you can't play them competitively/aggressively, or that they aren't battles of wits.

I happily agree that wargames have more of the ability to directly destroy the opponent's assets. And of course therefore people who like wargames like the ability to directly destroy the opponent's assets. And if that's what you really meant that euros often lack, then fine, I'll agree that's often true. And if you simply meant that you enjoy the type of stuff you can do in a wargame more than the type of stuff you can do in a euro, then cool.

But I am replying to your statement that euros are less of a challenge and less of a battle of wits and that weaker players won't get clobbered (a funny notion, since I recently lost a game of Combat Commander to someone playing for the first time!), etc.

I have played a huge variety of games (euros and otherwise - including your example of Settlers) which are just as competitive, strategic and "battle of wits" as wargames yet have little or no ability to directly destroy the enemy's assets. (Indeed, some quite competitive abstract games don't even have the concept of pieces belonging to one player or the other.)

One could even mischievously counter-argue that it's more challenging to win and takes more wits if you don't have the "blunt instrument" option to simply destroy opponent's assets, but must find more subtle methods...
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  • Edited Sat Jun 4, 2011 7:59 pm
  • Posted Sat Jun 4, 2011 7:58 pm
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This argument really has run its course.

Naturally there is great variety among Euros when it comes to "take that" type play. SdJ winners tend to be less nasty. Doesn't mean it doesn't take clever play, to be sure. But they are often more about running your own "machine" well than messing with that of your opponents.
 
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  • Posted Sun Jun 5, 2011 8:58 am
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Excellent article, keep these swords drawn!
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  • Posted Tue Jun 7, 2011 6:44 pm
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Oleg Goroshenko
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What's ASL?
 
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  • Posted Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:37 pm
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Oleg Goroshenko wrote:
What's ASL?


An invitation to cyber.
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  • Posted Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:30 pm
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Oleg Goroshenko wrote:
What's ASL?

Advanced Squad Leader- A very tactical wargame with a lot of exception to read!
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  • Posted Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:30 pm
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Good article.
 
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  • Posted Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:12 am
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This is an excellent article that pretty much sums up all the problems we non-wargamers face when trying to get into this world.
My personal experience is limited to a few games of War & Peace in my teen years with some friends, and trying to decipher the rules for La Bataille de Corunna, that I bought years ago and still haven't been able to play (I won't count Battlelore or Diplomacy).
From this I'd say that when you try to enter this world is a lot of help to have a seasoned player to explain the rules. The guy who owned War & Peace made some mistakes while explaining them, but even so we had some terrific games.
The intrinsic lenght of the rulebook is not an issue, for me, if rules are well explained. I own Magic Realm, and THAT has as big a rulebook, and complex, as you can get, but is fairly well explained, and at least you can have reasonable hopes of getting to crack the game and play.
Compare that with the rulebook of La Bataille de Corunna, where there are four or five types of chit (several infantry units, cavalry, artillery, and officers), each with three, four or six numbers for attack and defense values printed on the back of the chit, and the rulebook doesn't explain exactly what each number means!. It only says something like "those are the numbers for movement, range attack, melee attack, and morale check", but not which is which.
I had to look elsewhere for the meaning of the numbers, and took me quite a while to find it out. The initial deployment of pieces is not well explained either, so I don't even know if I'm beginning correctly the game!
These issues make difficult to get into games like this, that's why most players prefer lighter, easier games. My wife and I play Battlelore regularly, much less meatier, but easier to grasp. I'll keep trying, anyway, I hope to get someday to heavier wargames.
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  • Posted Thu Jul 7, 2011 8:05 am
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kikerl wrote:

The intrinsic lenght of the rulebook is not an issue, for me, if rules are well explained. I own Magic Realm, and THAT has as big a rulebook, and complex, as you can get, but is fairly well explained, and at least you can have reasonable hopes of getting to crack the game and play.


Odd. I've always considered Magic Realm's rulebook as one of the very worst ever made (disclaimer: I've never seen a 'programmed instructions' set
that I've liked). If you don't want to get into the meat of the game,
I guess it's find (but the game is rather like candyland at those levels).
Once you get to where there's combat and magic, it's full of instances
where you learned one rule for a more basic game, and then it was
withdrawn to be replaced by a more advanced one. Obviously, with such
chaos in the rules, maintaining an index is impossible.

Indeed, much of the size and complexity of the MR rulebook isn't because
the GAME is complex, but because of the decision to make 9 games which
contradict one another.

As an aside, if you think that rulebook is "as big and complex, as you
can get" please look at the size of SFB or ASL's rulebooks. THOSE are
complex sets. Magic realm is a fairly light game, very poorly explained.

Quote:
Compare that with the rulebook of La Bataille de Corunna


Can't fault you here. The La Bat rulebooks are intimidating to me -
they are written in the same style as old minis rules - with what
look like a lot of assumptions. Not what I'd suggest.

Quote:

These issues make difficult to get into games like this, that's why most players prefer lighter, easier games. My wife and I play Battlelore regularly, much less meatier, but easier to grasp. I'll keep trying, anyway, I hope to get someday to heavier wargames.


I'd suggest starting where most of us older wargamers started - with
some fairly light games like Afrika Corps and Midway (I started with
old S&T magazine ones, myself). These can be picked up cheaply in the
used market, and really lead well into the later, more complex
traditional games. Something I'm not so sure about the modern 'lighter'
games - there're so many different mechanisms out there now, that
what is learned in one, is not applicable in another. And some of
these systems live mainly on the lighter side of the hobby.
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  • Posted Thu Jul 7, 2011 3:45 pm
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Bruce Schlickbernd
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Chanfan wrote:
Interesting. I admit I have a different personal threshold on the spectrum of skill. I certainly admit a game of Setters can have the dice run against you, but I am also certain I win much more often than others of lesser skill. Not that I'm the best Settlers player ever.

In fact, one aspect of many wargames that I don't like so much, is the total knowledge and control of the units. I enjoy wargames that bring fog of war in more - things like units failing to act, or even acting on their own. Not being able to see the enemy, etc. I think there's a lot of luck in battles. Certainly skill plays a large factor - I think better trained troops will "fail better" than their opposition.


Failing to act or acting on their own is something that appears a lot in miniatures game (admittedly wargames, but this seems to be about board wargames). I've had my gauls throw off their pants and charge willy-nilly against armored roman cohorts more than once.

One of the best Fog of War approaches I've seen is in another not-quite-a-boardgame (since it is entirely played with cards), is Up Front. It simultaneously seems very abstract and yet captures the terror and confusion of squad combat much better than conventional boardgames. Trouble is, it has some of the most difficult rules around such that you almost always want to learn from another player rather than wade through the rules.
 
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  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:15 pm
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Bruce Schlickbernd
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calandale wrote:
kikerl wrote:

The intrinsic lenght of the rulebook is not an issue, for me, if rules are well explained. I own Magic Realm, and THAT has as big a rulebook, and complex, as you can get, but is fairly well explained, and at least you can have reasonable hopes of getting to crack the game and play.


Odd. I've always considered Magic Realm's rulebook as one of the very worst ever made (disclaimer: I've never seen a 'programmed instructions' set
that I've liked). If you don't want to get into the meat of the game,
I guess it's find (but the game is rather like candyland at those levels).


I consider it the worst set of rules. Ever. Bar none. If I was hosting a rules-writing panel, I'd hold them up as the example of how not to write rules. And realize I've waded through "Barkerese" (Phil Barker various Ancients miniatures rules).

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Once you get to where there's combat and magic, it's full of instances
where you learned one rule for a more basic game, and then it was
withdrawn to be replaced by a more advanced one. Obviously, with such
chaos in the rules, maintaining an index is impossible.


And then there are the chained references: Effect A happens, but only if at night, on the B side of tile, unless attacked by trolls, except those accompanied by unicorns, the paragraph preceding the first but not third activated only on alternate Sundays, unless an even day of the week, except in leap years.... and everyone you have to follow a reference to another reference to another...ad nauseum.
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  • Edited Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:34 pm
  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:33 pm
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David Boeren
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Chanfan wrote:
In fact, one aspect of many wargames that I don't like so much, is the total knowledge and control of the units. I enjoy wargames that bring fog of war in more - things like units failing to act, or even acting on their own. Not being able to see the enemy, etc. I think there's a lot of luck in battles. Certainly skill plays a large factor - I think better trained troops will "fail better" than their opposition.


Corsair wrote:
Failing to act or acting on their own is something that appears a lot in miniatures game (admittedly wargames, but this seems to be about board wargames). I've had my gauls throw off their pants and charge willy-nilly against armored roman cohorts more than once.


Probably depends on what type of minis wargames you're talking about. Are you primarily a historical minis player perhaps?

I've played a lot of minis games for many years now and models acting on their own or failing to act is very rare, other than perhaps failing a morale check due to fear or massive casualties. Like ekted above, I expect to have total control over my troops. If I command them to rush to their death or even attack a friendly squad, then they should do it! I'm the freaking commander here, and I know what's best

There are exceptions, I don't mind risking losing control *IF* I control the risk. For example, I play Hordes where your army has fantasy monsters in it. You can push them to fight harder than normal at the risk of losing control if you push too hard. That's OK because I decided to take the risk.

Note too that not all of the "cons" listed in the original post don't necessarily apply to minis wargames. For one thing, the bits are the best around! No cardboard chits here, you get a fully 3D model of everything in your army. Rules are typically written in a much more conversational way, and playtime (depending on the game) is usually pretty reasonable if you avoid the historical games. Quite a few can be finished in less than an hour, or even less than 30 minutes if you play smaller battles. It's usually easy to scale the game size up or down. Most of the better games have ways to limit the randomness, whether it's through resource management, spells or other ways to affect the odds, or using tactical bonuses (flanking, gang-up, etc...) Replayability is enormous because you can easily change the terrain, army composition, battle size, and scenarios so that each game is quite different.

If you've never looked into minis games, it's worth checking some out (I was mainly a boardgamer myself until getting into minis). Personally I would recommend avoiding Warhammer and 40k, despite them being some of the most commonly encountered games. To put it in familiar terms, these games are analogous to Monopoly for eurogamers or Stratego for wargamers.
 
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  • Edited Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:45 pm
  • Posted Tue Dec 6, 2011 2:44 pm
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Konstantinos D.
Germany
Garching bei München
I am a non-wargammer, although I have two wargames in the mail so maybe I will become one. This is obviously part of the reason I found this blog. I have a few reasons I would like to add to your list, although one can argue that they are a combination of the reasons you already mentioned:

Wargames are not suited for opportunity gaming If someone visits you at home it is much easier to interest them in a quick, easy game (be it a filler card game or a more involved euro) than a game that takes long to explain, to setup and to play. I recently had friends visiting and although before they didn't play any boardgames, when they left they had a few in their luggage. I am pretty sure this would have been much more difficult with a wargame, especially if you are just looking to fill an hour before you go out for drinks.

Price TtR costs about $30 and has a mounted map and a big deck of cards and components that look like trains. Maybe I am wrong with this, but a wargame in that price will probably come in a poly bag containing just "paper" components or at least that is the impression a person used to euros will get. I understand why they are more expensive, but they can give a bad impression either due to the components or the higher price.

Discoverability This is perhaps the most important, at least where I live. Here in Germany board games can be found in most department stores. The number of wargames on display (or for sale for that matter) is zero. Obletter a big game store here in Munich also has a total of zero wargames for sale. Other stores (both in Germany and my home country) have from zero to just 10-15 titles (mostly memoir'44). If someone is not already interested to find more than what is immediately and easily available, he will never come across wargames. And then, lets say you discover wargames and would like to browse the online stores and publishers. My personal impression is that these sites have been designed for wargamers. In some, the games are divided by publisher so you have to know which publisher you want. But even the publisher sites are not great. Take for example VPG or GMT. As a non-wargamer you might have decided on trying something easy to medium difficulty, eastern front, WWII game that also has a solitaire option. Can you search/browse based on difficulty, era, region, number of players? No, you can only browse based on system or series meaning even more research necessary. BGG can help, but I have yet to come across a site that will just list me all WWII eastern front ones (I admit I haven't looked that much).
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  • Edited Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:37 pm
  • Posted Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:41 pm
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