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Rick's Adventures in Board Gaming

Making note of my life in the hobby. Occasional attempts at humor included.
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The Incredible Rotating Thumb, Part 1

Rick Baptist
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Hi! Remember me?

I must take a moment and thank you for subscribing and reading this blog in its heyday. I really enjoyed it for a time. Oh, the plans I had for this thing! And so I have to apologize for letting it go for so long. Having great plans and then having reality dawn on me so much that I knew those plans wouldn't come to fruition gave me quite the downer. It really came down to this question:

"Do I want to play games or write about them?"

It was getting to be that much of a decision. I liked putting time into the articles and the big plans would have added a LOT more time. But I've come to terms with this whole thing. I love playing games, and I just like writing about them. So when I can write, I will. So on to the next adventure ...

redtraingreentrainbluetrainyellowtrainblacktrainpurpletrain

So I'd like a vehicle to discuss what I've been playing recently and how I feel about it. The Incredible Rotating Thumb will magically provide me some space to discuss one recent exciting game (the thumb rotates up), one good game with perhaps some flaws (the thumb rotates sideways) and one that comes up less memorable (the thumb rotates down). Now that I'm a full-fledged geek I'm starting to know what I like and putting down a game isn't too hard for me to do these days. At the same time, discovering a lovely gem out of nowhere gets me more excited than anything (well, almost anything). On to the thumbing!

thumbsup - Memoir '44 Online



Absolute insanity. Let me just say that Days of Wonder is my favorite board game company. They put out some awesome work. Okay, Cargo Noir wasn't so good. But I love so many of those great, iconic titles. Now, I played a lot of Ticket to Ride online. I don't have an iPad, but if you just discovered the game on there, yeah, I know the feeling. It's a good feeling, right? Days of Wonder did it again with Memoir.

It took them years to program this and it shows. It just works. Great sound effects and music, too. What's more, they give you enough credits right off the bat that you can play literally 50 games without paying a cent. I haven't even gotten to the point where I would have to decide if I wanted to pay for the service, and I've played enough to know that I would. It's just a very intuitive system, user-friendly and a bunch of fun. The online client works without a hitch, it's easy to challenge other users to a game. What's more, it's really reminded me how much I love the Memoir system -- easier to get into than Battlelore, and yet there's a complexity there that I really enjoy. The funny part about all this is that I had absolutely ZERO expectations going into this. I logged onto it pretty late after it was released, even, just to see what it looked like. I'm a believer. It's a blast, and if you enjoy Memoir at all, you owe it to yourself to get online and try this sucker out. Great way to spend 30 minutes to wind down after a long day. A huge, giant thumb up for Memoir 44 Online.

thumbsupthumbsdown - Torres



Torres is bordering on the lines of an abstract strategy game, which means that right from the start, it had a disadvantage. My favorite abstracts are thematic ones, like Lord of the Rings: The Confrontation (Deluxe Edition) and Taluva, so after reading the theme on this one (the king is dying and he encourages his royal lot to try and build the nicest castle in his name before he croaks, with absolutely no ill will involved) I wasn't too excited or crazed to play. What I discovered from my two plays was an attractive abstract that included some special powers and different ideas that won me over.

Torres has lots of those little castle thingies also seen in Arcadia, and you get a certain amount per round to build with. Players will be building their own castles and are allowed to sneak over to others to "help" build with them, all the while stealing victory points along the way. So there WAS some interaction here, a good amount actually, that was disguised upon first glance. You get the most points for putting your pawn at the highest point of the tower, along with getting points for the size of the castle in width and height. It's rather exciting watching your opponent build a castle up and getting to steal the top point from him next turn after all his hard work!



In the end, I enjoyed the game and would play it again, but decided to let my copy go due to a few flaws. For one, I'm not sure how much "fun" it was. It was interesting to be sure, and a very quality presentation, but I'm not sure I socialize with the correct type of gamers for this game. Another flaw for me was all the points you end up dealing out during the course of the game. Now I'm all for collecting victory points after a round, but counting out and doing tons of math and scoring every round isn't a joy of mine. The scoring track is one of the longest I've seen (look at the track above!) and you're hitting that thing a lot of times. I think we got into the 200s. Perhaps a silly complaint, but there you go.

So Torres gets the awkward "sideways thumb" for today. A good game for sure, and I'd definitely play it again, but just not enough for me to keep in my collection. A true "7" rating if I ever had one. And now for the stinker.

thumbsdown - Navegador



So the only rondel game I've played before this was Finca, and I'm not sure that really counts in the genre. I heard a lot of good things about rondel games, in which you have a wheel of different actions and can move a certain amount of spaces each turn to obtain them (1-3 in this game). It's a swell idea! One look at the board, which is quite stunning, and I went for it. Whoops!

My first mistake was not knowing how much of an economic game this is. Yeah, I'm not a big economic game fan. The first stock market-type game that I played that had a moving monetary value was Hab & Gut, and I thought it was pretty good. The next one I remember was Container, and while I loved the pieces and some of the way things worked, I can't say I was in love with it. So, this one actually intensified what I really don't like about the "moving market" in these types of games. It seemed to me that the market was determined in the first couple of rounds, depending on which good people decided to buy. We played a five-player game, so there was going to be three people getting gold and two people getting sugar at the beginning. Immediately, those two people jumped to the lead and it stayed that way throughout the game. They finished first and second. They were able to generate money quicker and buy improvements. That bugged me.

Beyond all that, though, is just the methodical way I was forced to approach my turn. It didn't really matter what kind of future planning I did, because the market was mostly poor for me by the time it was my turn. And then I was picking about the same actions every time around the wheel ... I haven't been bored with a game for quite a while, and I just don't understand the excitement about this one! I was truly bored by the end and wishing for someone to reach Japan to end the game. A big disappointment and this really sours my ideas to try out Hamburgum (dude on the cover notwithstanding), Imperial, etc.

Unless I missed something here? I'd love to know!

So that's the first of the IRT series -- and we're out for now. See you next time for more discussions.
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Subscribe sub options Tue Nov 8, 2011 4:02 am
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Roger Howell
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Enjoyed your point of views here, thank you. I might have to agree with you a bit on Navegador. I've only played it twice, and I don't dislike the game but it doesn't excite me as much as I thought it would. I can see how a person could be bored with it.
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  • Edited Tue Nov 8, 2011 5:08 am
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StevenE Smooth Sailing...
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Hello Rick,

I've been following your posts and enjoy your points of view especially the family perspectives.

M'44 is a great game and even more enjoyable with its plethora of expansions.

The problem I have with M'44 Online is that Johnny (the AI) cheats or consistently rolls much better then real dice would.
I do find the game fun but have not been convinced to buy into the $60 package.
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  • Posted Tue Nov 8, 2011 6:45 am
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Kevin B. Smith
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I didn't love my one game of Navegador, but your complaints don't really align with my experience. If other players were pushing one of the goods markets one direction, you could have bought some factories to benefit from that (and push the market the other way). Or buy some factories in a good where nobody else has them. You also could have focused on exploration and/or colonization, perhaps getting out to the spices and cashing in on that market.

It sounds like groupthink may have ruined that game for you. It might be worth another try, although from what you say about economic games I doubt you would ever love Navegador.

Have you looked at Caravelas? Similar theme and pretty map, but seems to have a focus on exploration and pickup-and-deliver rather than moving markets. I haven't had a chance to try it yet.
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  • Posted Tue Nov 8, 2011 10:06 am
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Surya Van Lierde is pure Eurosnoot and proud of it!
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I happen to think Navegador is just about the best rondel game out there apart from Shipyard.
Your experience with these 2 people jumping ahead is not what happened in my plays of this game. And I've played quite a few. The market values early on have, in my experience, nothing to do with winning or losing. There are simply to many ways to score points for the market to be the deciding factor, let alone in the first rounds. If a couple of people make big bucks by selling something you don't have, you can make big bucks by producing that resource. This is a game where you mostly win by doing what other people aren't, and by constantly adapting to what they do.

So yes, I think you missed something
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  • Posted Tue Nov 8, 2011 10:20 am
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Rick Baptist
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StevenE wrote:
Hello Rick,

I've been following your posts and enjoy your points of view especially the family perspectives.

M'44 is a great game and even more enjoyable with its plethora of expansions.

The problem I have with M'44 Online is that Johnny (the AI) cheats or consistently rolls much better then real dice would.
I do find the game fun but have not been convinced to buy into the $60 package.


Thanks Steven, would love to play with your painted set sometime.

To be honest, I've never even played the AI! I've only played against real competition, and it's been very tense and fun. Thanks for the tip, though -- I'll avoid Johnny.

peakhope wrote:
I didn't love my one game of Navegador, but your complaints don't really align with my experience. If other players were pushing one of the goods markets one direction, you could have bought some factories to benefit from that (and push the market the other way). Or buy some factories in a good where nobody else has them. You also could have focused on exploration and/or colonization, perhaps getting out to the spices and cashing in on that market.


I totally get what you're saying. The reason I avoided getting gold factories is because the fellow that taught us was saying we don't want to go against our plantations -- and I tend to agree that it would be silly having gold factories and gold plantations. Right? I did see the point of exploration, but my ship started out slower than the rest (I was the 5th player) and while I got a few blue chips I couldn't get out quicker than others. That impacted the spice idea also. So I focused on getting workers and sacrificing them for the bonus chips. I got a good amount of multipliers at the end but just not enough to get past third.

Quote:
It sounds like groupthink may have ruined that game for you. It might be worth another try, although from what you say about economic games I doubt you would ever love Navegador.

Have you looked at Caravelas? Similar theme and pretty map, but seems to have a focus on exploration and pickup-and-deliver rather than moving markets. I haven't had a chance to try it yet.


You know, I remember hearing about Caravelas and I agree with you, pick up and delivery games are usually winners for me and that might just be the ticket. A lot of people do not enjoy Bombay and I think it's pretty neat, along with Perry Rhodan and some others. Thanks for the suggestion!
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  • Edited Tue Nov 8, 2011 3:36 pm
  • Posted Tue Nov 8, 2011 3:31 pm
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Tony Bosca
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I'm in the Navegador is awesome camp. I think the fella that was explaining the game to you guys may have over-reached a little when trying to explain the game. But then again, I know the feeling of trying to explain games to someone and it seems it's either "hey, you never said we could do that" or "hey you didn't tell me that if I did that I'd be screwed the rest of the game." So you want to give some strategic context to your explanations and that can have some mixed results. You over-steer people in certain directions. Did the fella that was explaining the game to you win?

There are, like you said, only 4 ways to make money. (market-colonies, market-factories, new exploration and the favor money multipliers) It almost seems that in the game as a whole you want to have a little bit of everything (shipyards always seems to be where I under-achieve), while still carving out your niche and doing one aspect better than all the other players. The market in this game moves. I've never really gotten to the point where the whole game or rhythm had been decided on the first couple turns... but even if it had, there are a lot of really good games that, from a strategic standpoint, demand focus from the first turn or even in a "selected starting position". You could say this about Settlers of Catan, no? ...or especially games that have an even worse reputation as being "start heavy" or even unforgiving.

Navegador was a lot lighter than I had thought it would be, a very nice game with some tough decisions. Try it again... please!

Nice post!
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  • Posted Wed Nov 9, 2011 2:39 am
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Tony Bosca
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Surya wrote:
I happen to think Navegador is just about the best rondel game out there apart from Shipyard.


+1 for Shipyard!

We actually got both Navegador and Shipyard, learned both this week. It's rondel crazy over here!!!
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  • Posted Wed Nov 9, 2011 2:56 am
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Kevin B. Smith
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SlikkRikk wrote:
I totally get what you're saying. The reason I avoided getting gold factories is because the fellow that taught us was saying we don't want to go against our plantations -- and I tend to agree that it would be silly having gold factories and gold plantations. Right?

Not necessarily. If you own both sides of the market, you can make money when it is up, and you can make money when it is down. I think one player in our game might have done that.

In our game, I had a sugar plantation, so of course raw sugar was worth nothing, while other goods were valuable. Literally the same turn I got those other goods, the market fell out of them. I felt like the market was against me the whole game. But I did feel like I would have done a lot better if I played again.

Quote:
You know, I remember hearing about Caravelas and I agree with you, pick up and delivery games are usually winners for me and that might just be the ticket. A lot of people do not enjoy Bombay and I think it's pretty neat, along with Perry Rhodan and some others. Thanks for the suggestion!

I like Bombay, but it doesn't seem very popular with other people I game with. It seems like serious gamers tend to turn up their nose at pickup-and-deliver games. Or maybe they don't like the short game length or lack of direct pvp attacks. Or maybe they just hate cute elephants. I wish I could get it to the table more.
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  • Posted Wed Nov 9, 2011 7:14 am
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Rick Baptist
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Yes! There seems to be some elephant discrimination!

I put some more thought into Navegador last night, and I realize it's not just the market that bugged me (although your description above, Kevin, I can definitely relate to!). While the idea of the rondel is neat, I think one of the things that I had a tough time with was being limited in my choices of action each turn. I suppose that it might be a draw to some folks, but it was very discouraging to know that I couldn't get to a spot before someone else could, thereby messing up my future plans or providing a wasted turn for myself.

I don't have any desire to play Navegador again. But I WOULD try another rondel game -- call me a glutton for punishment!
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  • Edited Wed Nov 9, 2011 2:07 pm
  • Posted Wed Nov 9, 2011 2:06 pm
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Tony Bosca
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SlikkRikk wrote:


I don't have any desire to play Navegador again. But I WOULD try another rondel game -- call me a glutton for punishment!


Have you tried Vikings or Glen More?

As far as the Gerdts games, you definitely want to avoid Imperial... it's the rondel with focus on economics... sounds like your worst nightmare.
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  • Posted Wed Nov 9, 2011 8:24 pm
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Rick Baptist
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blakstar wrote:
SlikkRikk wrote:


I don't have any desire to play Navegador again. But I WOULD try another rondel game -- call me a glutton for punishment!


Have you tried Vikings or Glen More?

As far as the Gerdts games, you definitely want to avoid Imperial... it's the rondel with focus on economics... sounds like your worst nightmare.


Ah, VIKINGS! I adore that game and I totally forgot about its use of the rondel. Vikings is instantly my favorite rondel game of all time. I couldn't really tell you why I like Vikings so much, I just do. Glen More is another story ... my one play was not inspiring. The game seemed so abstract, and things just didn't seem to come together as I imagined they would. I also wasn't digging the theme.

Thanks for the tip on Imperial! If I can keep those dirty economics out of my rondel games, maybe I'll enjoy them!
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  • Posted Wed Nov 9, 2011 9:46 pm
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Kevin B. Smith
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SlikkRikk wrote:
While the idea of the rondel is neat, I think one of the things that I had a tough time with was being limited in my choices of action each turn. I suppose that it might be a draw to some folks, but it was very discouraging to know that I couldn't get to a spot before someone else could, thereby messing up my future plans or providing a wasted turn for myself.

I did enjoy that part of the game. I'll refer to them as "wheels", because I think "rondel" has a particular meaning to some folks. In Navegador, As with Vikings (which you love), you can pick any option as long as you're willing to pay for it. The wheel in Finca doesn't sound appealing to me, because of the interaction between my stuff on the wheel and yours.

I really like painful decisions in my games, and Navegador had that, partly due to the rondel. I also like games with relatively few options each turn, and it had that too. I didn't like the end-game, and overall it just ran longer than I wanted it to.

I agree that Glen More's theme is weak. I love the "time track" mechanic, and how it is used for tile selection. It's a solid game, but one that I don't love. It's ok. I'll play it.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:11 am
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Ken Bush
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Did you know that you can "buy" advancement of the rondel? you can actually move up to 6 spaces if you want.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:21 am
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Rick Baptist
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klbush wrote:
Did you know that you can "buy" advancement of the rondel? you can actually move up to 6 spaces if you want.


Yes -- don't you have to destroy a ship to move one space, though? Seems a tad harsh.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:12 am
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Part of the trick with Navegador is figuring out how to time the market. Even in a 2P game, one person is usually the "bad" side of the market, so you have to figure out how to "slow down" and force the other player to take a second action. With more than 2P, the game has a Puerto Rico type situation where you will get screwed if you copy the player to your right (or if they copy you).

Anyway, if you are willing to try another rondel game, you should look into Imperial. You've given Diplomacy a high rating and Imperial has a bit of a Diplomacy feel to it. Unfortunately there are still economics involved, but since you aren't competing with other players in a commodities market, you have some sort of control over how much money your country produces.
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  • Posted Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:32 pm
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