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A Gnome's Ponderings

I'm a gamer. I love me some games and I like to ramble about games and gaming. So, more than anything else, this blog is a place for me to keep track of my ramblings. If anyone finds this helpful or even (good heavens) insightful, so much the better.
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On the other hand, naked aggression is clearly not the universal solution

Lowell Kempf
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In my last blog, I noted that there are some games where the game balance breaks down if players are not willing to be aggressive enough. While many games allow for a great deal of flexibility in play style, some games simply don’t work if players play sufficiently counter to its nature.

And I’m not simply saying players intentionally playing to lose. If you never bought a card in Dominion (which is an option), the game would drag on forever but that would be because you were intentionally sabotaging the system. In some games, you can be striving to win but in a way that simply doesn’t work well with the mechanics of the game.

In my previous post, I used Cape Horn as an example. If players are not aggressive and try to impede each other’s progress, then the game quickly becomes a boring exercise in placing tiles. If you try to make each other’s lives miserable, it becomes a tense, fun game.

However, as has been pointed out to me, this problem doesn’t have to be about players not being aggressive enough. This is not a case where playing as mean and nasty is the automatic default way to play every game on the shelf.

Sometimes, when players focus so heavily on attacking each other, that is what causes the game to break down. That’s particularly the case if attacking each other isn’t the point of the game, just a sub-option.

The first example that came to mind for me was Dragon Delta. It was a game that I had been interested in for years, a game about placing stones and boards in order to create bridges across a lake. A simple, easy to grok concept that sounded fun. Eventually, I found a used copy and got it on the table.

And we all had a miserable time. We spend more time ripping up each other’s bridges or using dragon cards to block plays than actually building up any kind of infrastructure. After two hours, we were all sick of the game and capitulated to someone getting across just to get the experience over.

Now, maybe Dragon Delta is just a bad game. Or perhaps, which another kind of group mentality, it might actually be a fun game. However, for our aggressive play style, it was a game that fell apart. Maybe we would have come to enjoy it over repeat plays but none of us ever want to play it again.

Another game that proved even worse for us was Alexandros, a game about dividing up and claiming territory in a very dry and Euro-manner. Where the game fell apart for us was that scoring points was an action and we never seemed to find a point in the game where choosing the score could net the active player more points than anyone else. So, no one ever chose to score, particularly since scoring was something that we could calculate out.

(Oddly enough, Masons by the same designer did not have that problem, since you had to play cards to score on specific board elements and no one knew what cards other players had.)

Mind you, I also play most of my games with people who don’t care for cooperative games very much. Despite being a bunch of Euro and abstract lovers, we really just want to beat each other up, albeit in a calculated and dry manner. We are snooty in our brutality.

I originally come from an role playing game background so I know that games can be surprisingly delicate creatures. Some RPGs, particularly some of the more narratively driven games like Dogs in the Vineyard for example, can fall apart of players intentionally play against the system. While it can be fun to figure out how a game can be broken, it does basically defeat the purpose of playing games. (Then again, intentionally breaking a game is a whole other subject)

Perhaps, in the end, the only conclusion that I can come to from this particular bout of rambling is that different people need to play different games.
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Subscribe sub options Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:45 pm
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Masons is a great game that gets around this issue and the other you mentioned, precisely because of the hidden scoring cards. The offset, of course, is a 'lack of control' that bothers some people. I find it interesting because a very small nudge here or there to influence the play of your opponents (this is all you can really do) can make a long-term impact. It's an interesting game, but a somewhat chaotic one that I can see some people not liking.
 
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  • Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:52 pm
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J C Lawrence
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I find the more interesting cases and games to be those in which the players are responsible for ensuring that the game works, is balanced, that there is not a run-away winner etc.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:50 pm
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Lowell Kempf
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clearclaw wrote:
I find the more interesting cases and games to be those in which the players are responsible for ensuring that the game works, is balanced, that there is not a run-away winner etc.


Why is it that the comments people make about my blog entries tend to be where I get most of my ideas for future entries?
 
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  • Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:06 pm
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Russ Williams
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As mentioned in a previous entry, Hellas is a neat example: players only aggressively attacking each other will guarantee the game can't terminate. They have to do some exploration as well to get more tiles into play.
 
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  • Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:54 pm
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John Farrell
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I had the same experience as you with Dragon Delta. Never to be played again! OTOH, I love Alexandros as a 2 player game, which I guess makes it easier for someone to want to invoke scoring. I'm not sure I've played with more, but it would be one of those games where player chaos overrides all strategy.
 
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:19 am
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I'd be curious to read your explanation on what you have exactly in mind by saying "Dogs in the Vineyard for example, can fall apart of players intentionally play against the system".

I'm familiar with DitV but I'm afraid I don't quite get how the game can "fall apart"... unless you mean, for example, that a player can focus on bidding lots of D4s to minimize loss and maximize returns, or something like that?

Thanks!
 
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:56 am
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clearclaw wrote:
I find the more interesting cases and games to be those in which the players are responsible for ensuring that the game works, is balanced, that there is not a run-away winner etc.



The problem arises when the player who makes a move to 'advance' the game believes that move to be counter-productive to his individual success; Tragedy of the Commons and all that.

Canonical example is 'turtling' in multiplayer battle/war games, where the first person to head out and attack someone weakens themselves so much, they'll get pounced on by the other players and knocked out of contention. So everyone 'turtles' and the game stagnates.

So if it's up to the players to 'advance' the game by their play, rather than some external timer (e.g. number of turns, go through the deck X times, whatever) then you also have to make it appealing to the players to do that.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:36 pm
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Lowell Kempf
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silenceindigo wrote:
I'd be curious to read your explanation on what you have exactly in mind by saying "Dogs in the Vineyard for example, can fall apart of players intentionally play against the system".

I'm familiar with DitV but I'm afraid I don't quite get how the game can "fall apart"... unless you mean, for example, that a player can focus on bidding lots of D4s to minimize loss and maximize returns, or something like that?

Thanks!


To be honest, some of the thoughts from my recent posts have actually been inspired by mulling over a Dogs campaign that a friend of mine was in.

In Dogs, so much of the setting is mutually developed by the players. If I remember correctly, the players, not the source book, defines the nature of the Faith. If the players work together, it can be a very powerful game.

However, if the players are at cross purposes for defining those elements of the game and even use them to attack each other, that is when things crumble. There should be room for debate and discussion but there also needs to be compromise and cooperation.

 
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:01 pm
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