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Links: Rules for New Power Plants, Building the Perfect Game & Money Flow in Game Publishing

W. Eric Martin
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• German publisher 2F-Spiele has released rules in both English (PDF) and German (PDF) for how to use The New Power Plant Cards, published in 2007, with all of the Power Grid expansions released through 2011.

• On the Tasty Minstrel Games blog, owner Michael Mindes explains the concept of "money 'at risk" in publishing", forking the concept into "profitability being at risk" and "cash flow being at risk" and detailing how Kickstarter eases cash flow at risk:

Quote:
The hidden and amazing benefit of Kickstarter is the advance of cash flow. The cash flow exchange is reversed. The cash is in hand before much of it is due to pay for things. Not to mention that these initial sales will allow a publisher to do things like boost the total number of copies ordered which will lower their per unit price and boost their profitability.

He then emphasizes the point, noting that successful Kickstarter projects allow a publisher to keep "cash inside of the company, which allows for more projects to be undertaken". I've heard this argument from other publishers, too, with them noting that they have budgeted for X games to be released in year Y, so they throw oddball games or games that suddenly became available to them onto Kickstarter, figuring that if those games are funded, then great and if not, then they'll carry on with their previously determined publishing schedule and la de da.

Now of course taking this approach with Kickstarter could still cannibalize sales of previously budgeted-for items, but I suppose these publishers figure that a lost sale could just as easily come from an opposing publisher's game as easily as from one of their own.

• Mindes has also published a guest post from Panda Game Manufacturing's Michael Lee explaining the basic steps of board game manufacturing.

• Matthew Duhan of Gozer Games is interviewed by Go Forth and Game's Tom Gurganus and talks about the company's history and all aspects of what's involved with publishing.

• Are you ready to create the perfect game? Or at least crowdsource the most perfect game possible based on the whims of whoever participates? Dutch publisher 999 Games is running an open game design event called Het Perfecte Spel (The Perfect Game) in which the public is asked to participate in various ways, starting with a brainstorming phase from January 4-30, 2012 in which participants decide which qualities this perfect game should have. The subsequent phases are concept, development phase and production phase, with all of this taking place in Dutch and on a website devoted to the experiment, that being HetPerfecteSpel.nl (which won't go live until Jan. 4, 2012).

• In a post about items that Steve Jackson Games reprinted in 2011, SJG's Phil Reed notes that the 24th(!) printing of Munchkin is 100,000 copies(!!)

• Michael Schacht has released a Christmas-themed downloadable expansion for Mondo. This and many other downloadable expansions for the game – including the Spiel 2011 promos Mondo Micro and Mondo: Das Duell (although only in German for the latter one) – are available on Schacht's Mondo website.

• Similarly, Schacht has posted the mini Catta expansion for Zooloretto on the Zooloretto website. Seriously, if you wanted to, you could spend entire weeks dressing up the Schacht titles in your collection with all the spin-offs and additions and variants that he's designed. I don't know whether that's good customer service or evidence of a sadistic streak toward game completionists...

• Finally French publisher Jactalea offers both a pun and a hint at future releases with its New Year's note to this in the industry:

"Bonne année" becomes "buttonne année"

Napoleon was a button?!
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Subscribe sub options Tue Jan 3, 2012 8:18 pm
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Kevin Calongne
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NOoooooooo! I was just minutes away from posting my own rules for the "New" Power Plant Cards! Oh how The Fates conspire!
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  • Edited Tue Jan 3, 2012 8:28 pm
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I think Michael fundamentally misunderstands the questions surrounding Kickstarter because he can't see the customer side of the equation, and seems to miss one huge risk that a game company runs: that their games will suck or not find an audience.

Of course Kickstarter is good for publishers. Money now vs. money later is always better, and guaranteed sales are better than sales projections, and being able to avoid committing to a project until it has customers actually committing to spending their hard-earned dollars is a no-brainer. That doesn't make it the right thing to do for his company or good for customers.

It's how that risk that he doesn't mention - the risk of a game not selling because the producer hasn't done a good job, however you measure that - that is the risk Kickstarter moves around significantly that customers have to be aware of.
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  • Posted Tue Jan 3, 2012 8:55 pm
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cfarrell wrote:


It's how that risk that he doesn't mention - the risk of a game not selling because the producer hasn't done a good job, however you measure that - that is the risk Kickstarter moves around significantly that customers have to be aware of.



I agree with you, but how is this different from P500? Wargame companies have been using that for years (decades?) and I've never heard all the wailing and lamentation that Kickstarter generates.
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  • Posted Tue Jan 3, 2012 10:05 pm
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Erik Racer
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I prefer KS to P500. With P500 you pay up front and then wait until 500 has been reached. I'm out that $$ with no delivery date in sight. With KS, I can pledge and not get charged until the target is hit. Yes, I still have to wait, and, yes, the delivery date may slip, but I still prefer the KS method over P500.
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  • Posted Tue Jan 3, 2012 10:59 pm
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Val Ruza
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eracer68 wrote:
I prefer KS to P500. With P500 you pay up front and then wait until 500 has been reached. I'm out that $$ with no delivery date in sight. With KS, I can pledge and not get charged until the target is hit. Yes, I still have to wait, and, yes, the delivery date may slip, but I still prefer the KS method over P500.


This is not how either GMT`s or MMP`s P500 programs work. You do not get charged until the game is ready to ship.
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  • Posted Tue Jan 3, 2012 11:29 pm
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Belz wrote:
eracer68 wrote:
I prefer KS to P500. With P500 you pay up front and then wait until 500 has been reached. I'm out that $$ with no delivery date in sight. With KS, I can pledge and not get charged until the target is hit. Yes, I still have to wait, and, yes, the delivery date may slip, but I still prefer the KS method over P500.


This is not how either GMT`s or MMP`s P500 programs work. You do not get charged until the game is ready to ship.


For more details, see http://www.gmtgames.com/t-GMTP500Details.aspx

As it is, I like both KS and P500 (and have gotten games from both).
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  • Posted Tue Jan 3, 2012 11:52 pm
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blinks wrote:
Belz wrote:
eracer68 wrote:
I prefer KS to P500. With P500 you pay up front and then wait until 500 has been reached. I'm out that $$ with no delivery date in sight. With KS, I can pledge and not get charged until the target is hit. Yes, I still have to wait, and, yes, the delivery date may slip, but I still prefer the KS method over P500.


This is not how either GMT`s or MMP`s P500 programs work. You do not get charged until the game is ready to ship.


For more details, see http://www.gmtgames.com/t-GMTP500Details.aspx

As it is, I like both KS and P500 (and have gotten games from both).


Thanks guys. I didn't realize this. I'm not sure how I came to this conclusion then. I must be confusing this with pre-orders I've done directly with publishers before. Sorry if I've misled anyone and thanks for setting me straight. Guess I'll go see what they have on tap.
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  • Posted Wed Jan 4, 2012 12:27 am
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The guest post from Panda Games was excellent. Thanks, Eric.
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  • Posted Wed Jan 4, 2012 12:47 am
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Michael Mindes says:

I don't want to risk my companies money on a questionable product, so I'll risk yours instead!
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  • Edited Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:36 am
  • Posted Wed Jan 4, 2012 1:08 am
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Mark Fowler
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Zaphod wrote:
Michael Mindes says:

I don't want to risk my companies money on a questionable product, so I'll risk yours instead!


Hopefully that was meant as a joke???? But hard to tell, and since it comes across as a character attack with little humor I will respond as if it wasnt.

I have no real inside info to Tasty Minstrel Games, but from the blog and other posts, my view is that TMG has so far been a 1-2 man company still being run as a side job rather than a full-time business. Working to slowly build up an inventory of games and a reputation. And despite now having a good reputation and collection of games, I dont get the impression that Michael is riding the gravy train and ready to quit the day job.

So when he risks the companies money - he is risking his savings, not profit margin.

I would tend to look at it in a more positive light - He doesnt want to risk his savings on every game that comes along, but on some that are questionable as to their market value, Kickstarter provides a way to say I am willing to produce this game if there is enough interest. If there is no interest - the project fails to launch and neither he nor potential backers are at risk. If the KS succeeds, the backers get what they pay for - so its really not a risk for the backers.

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  • Posted Wed Jan 4, 2012 4:47 am
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mark_f wrote:
If the KS succeeds, the backers get what they pay for - so its really not a risk for the backers.


And this is where you miss the point.
In one respect you're right. You get what you pay for - a game.

On the other hand, you don't know what you're actually paying for until after you put down your money. It's pretty much a completely blind purchase.

Take a game that had a lot of hype, and looked really good... but then fell completely flat when people actually got a hold of it.
The biggest winner in that category this year seems to have been Quarriors!. It was the top of The Hotness, everyone was talking about it, the hype machine was in full swing.
It came out and sold like hotcakes for the first month.
Now people are all full of buyers remorse and wishing they had held off until they saw reviews etc.

It's the same thing with KS. You can present your game and say "you're buying into this", but your idea of "this" and the publisher's idea don't always match.

It may well be that a game is good... but deeply unpopular despite that (like say Star Trek: Expeditions). That backfires on the buyer as well.

Ultimately, a fair amount of risk is being shifted onto the buyers.
Yes, you are buying a product, and you're getting "a product".
But there's no guarantee of quality or value inherent in that product.
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  • Posted Wed Jan 4, 2012 8:37 am
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Marc O'Keife
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Zaphod wrote:
Michael Mindes says:

I don't want to risk my companies money on a questionable product, so I'll risk yours instead!


Seconded.
 
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  • Posted Wed Jan 4, 2012 9:21 am
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palmerkun wrote:
Take a game that had a lot of hype, and looked really good... but then fell completely flat when people actually got a hold of it. The biggest winner in that category this year seems to have been Quarriors!. It was the top of The Hotness, everyone was talking about it, the hype machine was in full swing. It came out and sold like hotcakes for the first month. Now people are all full of buyers remorse and wishing they had held off until they saw reviews etc.

Except that Quarriors! is still #20 in The Hotness and ranks #5 in games played in the first few days of January 2012, being beat out only by Chess, Dominion, 7 Wonders and Carcassonne. Yes, the petals are off the rose for some players, but hardly all of them. (I still haven't played the game, so my opinion on it is neutral.)

palmerkun wrote:
It's the same thing with KS. You can present your game and say "you're buying into this", but your idea of "this" and the publisher's idea don't always match.

Which is the same as buying almost anything in a retail setting, game or otherwise, when you haven't previously experienced the product firsthand. I was recently dissatisfied with a cereal I purchased, for example, despite its promising appearance on the box.

I understand the complaints about cost-shifting for KS releases from publisher to buyer, and yes, you have to wait a while between payment and playing, but in practice I don't think the experience is that different from buying other games for which you lack firsthand experience.

As a sullen teenager, I would often flip through the discount record bins – yes, I'm ancient and I was a major cheap-o – and buy records at random based on their covers and titles. The hit vs miss ratio was undoubtedly higher than if I had stuck with bands that I knew, but I discovered a ton of interesting artists this way, artists that I would have never experienced otherwise. Even with all the resources available on the Geek and my interactions with hundreds of designers and publishers, I still run across games about which I know nothing – and sometimes I buy them just to take a flier on something new and untested to see what it's like. That's the Kickstarter experience for many people, and they like taking those chances.
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  • Posted Wed Jan 4, 2012 12:09 pm
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Quarriors is also still ranked #251 overall. On a site with over 55,000 games in the database, this puts Quarriors higher than 99.6% of games listed on BGG!

Yes, there are 250 games ranked higher, but there's certainly no indication that BGG users as a whole now dislike the game.
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  • Posted Wed Jan 4, 2012 1:17 pm
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You buy games without knowing if you will enjoy them all the time. KS does not fundamentally alter that.

You are either the kind of person who directly orders or pre-orders a new to be released Essen title so your group can play it now, or you will wait 9 months for it to garner a significant number of reviews, get a US release (for those of us in the US), and be available with free shipping from your favorite OLGS. Those in the latter category will pay markedly less and suffer far less risk.
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  • Posted Wed Jan 4, 2012 1:49 pm
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tom moughan
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In a recent better-late-than-never game changing move from 2F-Spiele whistle

and to think...I was playing them upside down and converting cities into resources!! noooooooooooooooooooooo *faint*

; D



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  • Posted Wed Jan 4, 2012 2:47 pm
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wwscrispin wrote:
You are either the kind of person who directly orders or pre-orders a new to be released Essen title so your group can play it now, or you will wait 9 months for it to garner a significant number of reviews, get a US release (for those of us in the US), and be available with free shipping from your favorite OLGS. Those in the latter category will pay markedly less and suffer far less risk.

Thanks for mentioning Spiel, William – that's definitely another venue in which people are eager to take chances and see what awaits them. Gen Con is another such convention, with Fantasy Flight, for example, often selling a small quantity of a game that won't hit retail shelves for a few months.

Just as gamers prefer different games, they also have different approaches to buying and discovering those games.
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  • Posted Wed Jan 4, 2012 2:49 pm
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wwscrispin wrote:
You are either the kind of person who directly orders or pre-orders a new to be released Essen title so your group can play it now, or you will wait 9 months for it to garner a significant number of reviews, get a US release (for those of us in the US), and be available with free shipping from your favorite OLGS. Those in the latter category will pay markedly less and suffer far less risk.

Less risk of getting a game they don't like, sure. However, the flip side is that they have a far higher risk of missing out on good games due to limited availability -- I'm sure there are plenty of people kicking themselves for not picking up, say, Wok Star during the brief window that it was available. Some of these limited-release, awesome games will never see the light of day again, and the cautious "wait until there are twenty reviews posted" gamers may never get to play them at all, or only at a vastly higher price.

I'm well aware that this isn't the case for most games, which go on to be available in large quantities for a long time, but there are plenty of awesome games which are now damned near impossible to find.
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  • Posted Wed Jan 4, 2012 5:33 pm
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No, Eric. Napoleon was as cute as a button.
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  • Posted Thu Jan 5, 2012 2:25 am
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I feel Jactalea is playing with the guerre des buttons aka the button war idea here. It's a well known YA book that was turned into a film and saw a remake last year. It's about french rural youths stealing each others' buttons afairemember.
Using buttons for a wargame seems an interesting idea, quirkily french and all that.
 
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  • Posted Thu Jan 5, 2012 9:32 am
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W Eric Martin wrote:

As a sullen teenager, I would often flip through the discount record bins – yes, I'm ancient and I was a major cheap-o – and buy records at random based on their covers and titles. The hit vs miss ratio was undoubtedly higher than if I had stuck with bands that I knew, but I discovered a ton of interesting artists this way, artists that I would have never experienced otherwise. Even with all the resources available on the Geek and my interactions with hundreds of designers and publishers, I still run across games about which I know nothing – and sometimes I buy them just to take a flier on something new and untested to see what it's like. That's the Kickstarter experience for many people, and they like taking those chances.


Thanks, Eric, I had been wondering about the appeal of supporting unknown kickstarter games from unknown designers, and this is a great example of why so many gamers do this. I, too, was a sullen, record impulse-buyer as a teen, and did the same thing for many years with second-hand boardgames I found at flea markets here. At one point, however, I realized I lacked the room to store all of them and the time to play them. These days, I can listen to samples of music online before buying, and I can usually try a new game at the Spielwiese or a friend's game night before investing in it myself. But I couldn't resist grabbing at least one "unknown" in Essen this year: the Japanbrand game "Master Merchant."

ONTO ANOTHER TOPIC:
All the talk about KS here has been about the publishers and the customers. What about the game designers? Perhaps since KS is taking less of the risk from the publisher, they could also offer better royalties (and I'm assuming the royalties from the initial KS order are paid upfront to the designer).

As for Tasty Minstrel Games, I doubt they (or very many other publishers) would put a game on KS that they did not believe in (they would not just "throw something out there to see if enough people bite"). They are still investing in the game, and probably need to put some initial artwork, game rules, etc. online so that it can attract backers (even better would to get the prototype blind playtested by groups that write reviews, such as the DC Gamers in the U.S. and Westpark Gamers in Germany).
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  • Posted Thu Jan 5, 2012 11:21 am
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cfarrell wrote:

It's how that risk that he doesn't mention - the risk of a game not selling because the producer hasn't done a good job, however you measure that - that is the risk Kickstarter moves around significantly that customers have to be aware of.


I understand your concern about underdeveloped games, and think it's legitimate, but it seems intrinsic to small and self publishers; I don't see why a guy who empties out his 401k to produce his game is any more or less likely to do a good job of development than a guy who puts his game up on KS.

One of the hardest problems for a new publisher is figuring out how to estimate market demand, and Kickstarter is tremendously helpful with that. In that sense, KS acts as a filter -- if a campaign doesn't succeed, then perhaps the publisher would be unwise to proceed with its publication. I would assume we'd prefer that small publishers find this out before they plunk down $20k of their own money only to end up with 2,000 copies of their game sitting in their basement.
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  • Posted Thu Jan 5, 2012 11:26 am
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Trictrac has more info on the button game: http://trictrac.net/index.php3?id=jeux&rub=actualite&inf=det...

It's a small abstract game by Bruno Cathala.
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  • Posted Thu Jan 5, 2012 4:11 pm
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Michael Mindes
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mark_f wrote:
Zaphod wrote:
Michael Mindes says:

I don't want to risk my companies money on a questionable product, so I'll risk yours instead!


Hopefully that was meant as a joke???? But hard to tell, and since it comes across as a character attack with little humor I will respond as if it wasnt.


Zaphod has a history of making such attacks...

mark_f wrote:
I would tend to look at it in a more positive light - He doesnt want to risk his savings on every game that comes along, but on some that are questionable as to their market value, Kickstarter provides a way to say I am willing to produce this game if there is enough interest. If there is no interest - the project fails to launch and neither he nor potential backers are at risk. If the KS succeeds, the backers get what they pay for - so its really not a risk for the backers.


I am trying to build something to last. After almost 3 full years as a game publisher, and given the economic stability or lack thereof that I see worldwide, I am no longer comfortable utilizing personal savings to publish new games.

Believe it or not, selling several thousand games allows me to expand upon those games only. Not to start new projects. So currently, there is not really any other way for me to fund new game projects. I already need to be reprinting Belfort and Martian Dice.

I also need to plan for future expansions, and so forth.
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  • Posted Fri Jan 6, 2012 9:52 pm
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Zaphod wrote:
Michael Mindes says:

I don't want to risk my companies money on a questionable product, so I'll risk yours instead!

I don't know where "questionable product" comes into it. As far as I know, TMG does not publish questionable products. Not every TMG game is every single gamer's favorite (obviously), but when I look at the set of titles from TMG, I'm very proud to say that in each game's target demographic, each one is absolutely top notch. I feel similarly confident about upcoming releases such as Kings of Air and Steam (just finished a Kickstarter campaign), Ground Floor, and For The Win.

palmerkun wrote:
you don't know what you're actually paying for until after you put down your money. It's pretty much a completely blind purchase.

With all the video reviews, rules availability, and in some cases print and play capability I do not understand how anyone could look at most of the KS game projects and call them "blind purchases."

palmerkun wrote:
Take a game that had a lot of hype, and looked really good... but then fell completely flat when people actually got a hold of it.
The biggest winner in that category this year seems to have been Quarriors!. It was the top of The Hotness, everyone was talking about it, the hype machine was in full swing.
It came out and sold like hotcakes for the first month.
Now people are all full of buyers remorse and wishing they had held off until they saw reviews etc.

... And Quarriors! was NOT a Kickstarter game. It went through all the normal channels and so-called "gatekeepers." That's the opposite of the point that a KS game is an unknown quantity and somehow less likely to be valuable than a game published the traditional way.
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  • Posted Fri Jan 6, 2012 10:15 pm
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Belz wrote:

This is not how either GMT`s or MMP`s P500 programs work. You do not get charged until the game is ready to ship.


These are essentially the same thing as KickStarter. There are several differences at least with GMTs P500 that make it superior to KS in my opinion:

1) Most P500 games have more info about the game so the risk of buying into one of them is a lot less than many of the KS projects I've seen. Comments, session reports, artwork and often reviews are available for many P500 games before they are published. The designers make the usual rounds at wargame cons so many people have usually gotten a chance to try the game in some form. This has not been the case with most KS game projects as far as I've seen.

2) There is an additional filter between the designer and the customer with P500: the publisher/developer. This limits the risk of poor production quality and other problems a great deal. The publisher/developer has a great deal of experience with production matters and is therefore better able to avoid these types of problems. A lot of KS projects are coming from "designers" with very little experience with this sort of thing.

3) The number of games on GMTs P500 list is very limited. It's very easy to browse and find something that might interest me. KS is just a nightmare in that regard. So far my experience with KS has been limited to D-Day Dice. It's the only game I've ever even looked at on KS and the only reason for that was that I had some previous experience with the game. If it weren't for that I would have completely ignored the game.

From my point of view, KS is just too much work. I'm perfectly happy with the 10-20 games I might buy over the course of a year that come from established publishers. Why take the risk and extra trouble with KS games??? Sorry KS designers but I'm afraid you won't be getting any of my money in the future.
 
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  • Posted Sat Jan 7, 2012 2:08 am
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alkaiser wrote:
Belz wrote:

This is not how either GMT`s or MMP`s P500 programs work. You do not get charged until the game is ready to ship.


These are essentially the same thing as KickStarter. There are several differences at least with GMTs P500 that make it superior to KS in my opinion:

1) Most P500 games have more info about the game so the risk of buying into one of them is a lot less than many of the KS projects I've seen. Comments, session reports, artwork and often reviews are available for many P500 games before they are published. The designers make the usual rounds at wargame cons so many people have usually gotten a chance to try the game in some form. This has not been the case with most KS game projects as far as I've seen.

2) There is an additional filter between the designer and the customer with P500: the publisher/developer. This limits the risk of poor production quality and other problems a great deal. The publisher/developer has a great deal of experience with production matters and is therefore better able to avoid these types of problems. A lot of KS projects are coming from "designers" with very little experience with this sort of thing.

3) The number of games on GMTs P500 list is very limited. It's very easy to browse and find something that might interest me. KS is just a nightmare in that regard. So far my experience with KS has been limited to D-Day Dice. It's the only game I've ever even looked at on KS and the only reason for that was that I had some previous experience with the game. If it weren't for that I would have completely ignored the game.

From my point of view, KS is just too much work. I'm perfectly happy with the 10-20 games I might buy over the course of a year that come from established publishers. Why take the risk and extra trouble with KS games??? Sorry KS designers but I'm afraid you won't be getting any of my money in the future.


Alan I don't really agree with your reasons here:
1) I think this is only because they are in P500 for so long. When they are first launch there is not much information. Also, no videos.

2) Most of the good kickstarters also have the publisher/developer.

3) Really? I find it very hard to go through the 80+ games on the P500 page and the different statuses.
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  • Posted Sat Jan 7, 2012 3:13 am
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jeffinberlin wrote:
All the talk about KS here has been about the publishers and the customers. What about the game designers? Perhaps since KS is taking less of the risk from the publisher, they could also offer better royalties (and I'm assuming the royalties from the initial KS order are paid upfront to the designer).


I think it is great for designers. Since KS, it has been easier for me to talk publishers into looking at/publishing my games. Less risk for publishers = more opportunity for the unknown designer. And I need to look into that upfront royalties idea . . .
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  • Posted Sat Jan 7, 2012 4:02 am
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cfarrell wrote:
I think Michael fundamentally misunderstands the questions surrounding Kickstarter because he can't see the customer side of the equation, and seems to miss one huge risk that a game company runs: that their games will suck or not find an audience.

Of course Kickstarter is good for publishers. Money now vs. money later is always better, and guaranteed sales are better than sales projections, and being able to avoid committing to a project until it has customers actually committing to spending their hard-earned dollars is a no-brainer. That doesn't make it the right thing to do for his company or good for customers.

It's how that risk that he doesn't mention - the risk of a game not selling because the producer hasn't done a good job, however you measure that - that is the risk Kickstarter moves around significantly that customers have to be aware of.


This may or may not be relevant to any discussions had in the thread but I've followed most of Michael's blogs and they seem to all be written from the perspective of a publisher to the consumer. I think that blog post is also from the same perspective, written to help potential consumers see the "risk" as they, a publisher see it.

It's not that he doesn't understand the customer side, he's just presenting the exact opposite for those who are interested in publishing. I think he doesn't mention the risk of games not selling because that is the fundamental problem any publisher would have. If all you want is to release your game with one print run and sell the copies and never make another game again, well then you are avoiding the risks associated with doing that. That would be a discussion between the risks associated with a single release versus risks associated with planned multiple releases.

As for the risk a publisher takes with a game not selling I'd say that risk is still there even if you sell out every copy of a release run of a Kickstarter campaign. The risk is more of a future risk though. If you plan to continue making games and potentially plan a second print run you need to make sure that you produce a quality product or your future endeavors will have trouble.

I'd also like to point out that in the whole KS debate there is a fundamental difference in the types of campaigns. There are campaigns with information and campaigns without. The former give you ample opportunity to look into game play, mechanics, rules, PnP, actual game art, and have great videos and the latter have almost nothing but a heartfelt description and a maybe a few cool art prints leaving you with a blind buy purchase.

TMG has been one of the best as far as really showing you what they are selling. Of the Kickstarter games I've backed, I have always felt like I had just as much information about the game, if not more, than if it was a new preorder release for Essen or something like that. The only games I can get better info on are ones that already released and have at least a year or two of history to look at.
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  • Edited Sat Jan 7, 2012 4:46 am
  • Posted Sat Jan 7, 2012 4:42 am
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lfisher wrote:

1) I think this is only because they are in P500 for so long. When they are first launch there is not much information. Also, no videos.

2) Most of the good kickstarters also have the publisher/developer.

3) Really? I find it very hard to go through the 80+ games on the P500 page and the different statuses.



1. Sure, initially you may not have much info. But P500 typically runs for months or YEARS (one disadvantage, as it were, to Kickstarter since KS is usually shorter duration), and eventually there is a very acceptable level of info on the game, and you can still pre-order it. So you don't have to be one of the first 10 people pre-ordering something, and you can get quite a bit of info. Whether or not there are videos depends on the designer & publisher, but yeah, it's not a requirement like on KS.

2. A publisher/developer who is ALSO the designer. Maybe OK, maybe not. Caveat emptor.

3. Can't say about this; I'm not into wargames so much and I've only ever P500'd one title, which I was reasonably happy with, played a few times, but eventually traded. It may be that many wargamers limit their interest to certain periods or conflicts, so they can scan a large list and filter out stuff not in their wheelhouse easily.
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  • Posted Sat Jan 7, 2012 1:14 pm
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cannoneer wrote:
[q="lfisher"]


2. A publisher/developer who is ALSO the designer. Maybe OK, maybe not. Caveat emptor.



No, not necessarily. Many are from small publishers separate from the designer.
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  • Posted Sat Jan 7, 2012 3:46 pm
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Dave VanderArk
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lfisher wrote:
alkaiser wrote:

3) The number of games on GMTs P500 list is very limited. It's very easy to browse and find something that might interest me.


Alan I don't really agree with your reasons here:
3) Really? I find it very hard to go through the 80+ games on the P500 page and the different statuses.


Agree completely with this. I was on GMT's site last week and couldn't believe how much they had on their P500 list.
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  • Posted Sat Jan 7, 2012 10:17 pm
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strange

I am reading your comments and I see that one major thing is missing. Do not forget that designing a good/decent/poor game and putting it on Kickstarter is enough. Any game (ANY) needs publicity, which means you do not only want to know how many people will sign up for the Kickstarter project (so you will not risk not selling your game and drawning your money after publishing it) but also how many people will actually talk about it. Games, which will not even receive a good response on the Kickstarter - will be known before appearing on the market.

Many designers who do not want to sell their ideas to a big publishing houses are left by themselves. It does not mean they cannot succeed and that their game will not sell. Some of you guys noticed that with the huge amount of games on the market - the best games are usually printed in 1000-4500 copies tops!

And what to do with this?
 
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  • Posted Sun Jan 8, 2012 1:28 pm
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As a gamer who has both bought a few Kickstarter games, and one who is planning on using Kickstarter to publish a game, I have a slightly different take on it. To me, I LOVE Kickstarter. When I buy from KS, I am buying directly from the publisher so I know the person making the game is making the profit and not a bunch of unknown middle men. The mark up on a game that costs 10 to make will cost 40-50 in the store and the publisher will only see a few dollars profit from it. As a reward, I fully expect the publisher to give me bonus items to go with the game that wont be available in the standard release. For example, D-Dice shipped an additional tote bag, more dice, cards, etc. So when I buy a kickstarter game not only does the publisher get more from the sale, but I get more from the purchase. To me, thats a win win!

For a successful Kickstarter campaign from me, make sure
1) I get bonus stuff or a cheaper price
2) There is enough information about the game that I can make an informed decision on whether or not I will like it
3) Let me see the artwork so I can decide if I like the look of it
4) Give me lots of information/updates during the process so I feel attached to the product and not left out to dry.

Every game I have bought has followed the above rules, and as long as those are followed I really don't understand the "risk". Its no more risk then buying preorder and I get more for my money. If that still seems like to much risk to you then thats fine, but that doesn't mean that the system itself is poor. It has its place and I think we will get a wider range of games because of it, which is better for everyone.


Michael, I applaud your work with Tasty Minstrel and look forward to seeing you guys have a long and productive publishing career!
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  • Edited Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:26 am
  • Posted Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:18 pm
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