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January 30/31 - Hansa Teutonica and Eclipse is ruining my sanity

Jeff A
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Starting about 2 months ago I have been going to two board gaming groups, Mondays at my friend Chris's and Tuesdays I host. It has been pretty great and I am going to keep it up.

On Monday January 30th I played a game that was new to me, Hansa Teutonica. I really enjoyed Hansa Teutonica, even though I came in last place, and even though my situation that evening wasn't the best. I have been having this weird issue with my hearing lately, due to some sort of problem with my sinuses or something. I was pretty much completely deaf. So hearing the rules explained was pretty much a no go, I just gleamed what I could, which was a lot. I didn't however fully understand the scoring or the situations that ended the game and so my play was definitely not all it could have been. It is a game that I would love to try again.

On Tuesday January 31st, we played a 5 player game of Eclipse. Sigh.
My hopes were so high for Eclipse as I watch the developer guide etc but I think I am going to have to revise my rating. I will NOT go so far as to say that the game is broken or anything, but I will say that there are some definite issues that I take with how the game plays. It will not see my gaming table again under the base rules. I am not sure what rules need to change but I am sure of a few things.

1. I believe that I play games to have fun. I want the others playing the game to have fun too. I can honestly say that I have not played a game of Eclipse and had fun. That is probably because I have never won a game of Eclipse. But that being said, the chances are that if I won, and had fun there would be at least 1 or 2 others at the table that definitely didn't have fun.

2. I have come to realize that I enjoy games with a mechanic that holds the leader back, so that at least the other players all feel they have a chance. And when that leader is overtaken, they should also still feel that they have a chance.
Eclipse only has one mechanic to hold a leader back, the cost of taking actions, but that mechanic does just as good of a job at holding back the rest of the pack as well.

Basically here is my beef, almost everything in Eclipse is suited to be easier when you are wealthy.

-Actions cost you more but chances are you are having no problem populating orange planets and the only thing it does is keep you from taking MORE actions than those you are beating.

-Research, Better technologies cost more research. While it could be possible for you to snag a key tech before your opponent, if you are getting beaten up, good luck paying for it and upgrading your ships, and building new ships <- Because when you are poor, you tend to be poor in all resources.

-Upgrading, You need to be able to research expensive ship techs in order to upgrade them, the only real tech for the poor is improved hulls as it doesn't require you to also research and upgrade power sources.

-Building, same as research, when you are wealthy you tend to be able to build more ships. Yes you have more to defend, but your ships tend to be stronger as well so you don't need so many ships out there.

-Move, only issue is the rich can have it easier at affording better drives, but they do need to move further.

-Explore is the only real action that is the same if your wealthy or poor, but the chances are that by the time your society has been crushed by the Galactic emperor, there are no more tiles to explore anyway. I haven't played a game that had tiles to explore past round 4.

So what right? Thats the way the game was designed, thats how it should work. Well no, not on my table. In my frustration while lying in bed last night I thought up a few possibilities that I am going to look into.
These are the few things I will looks at for house rules and why.

1. Taking the Galactic Centre should be less of a boost, it is already giving you more production, 4 VP, an ancient discovery. I am thinking no ancient discovery and 2 influence disks required to take it. Why?
The ancient discovery is just a bonus for what reason? If you took the center you are probably doing pretty well. As for the influence (this one I am not sure about), its another way to hold back the (theorectical) leader, and only the leader, just a bit by making actions more costly.

2. Ancient tiles that give you a resource (+5 Research), I may reclassify these as Ancient outposts, they would go on the hex like an orbital. You will get the instant bonus, and can populate the ancient outpost with a cube from the corresponding track.

The next is probably my favorite so a little back explanation. I feel that the start of the game and your economies can be too easily boosted to the best or held back too greatly by simply not getting planets of a certain type. Every game I have played I either got too few money planets so I could not effectively act, or like last night, my money was fine, but I only ever discovered 1 materials planet. I could not build anything to effectively defend against the oncoming 2 upgraded Dreadnaughts and a Cruiser.

3. All non advanced planets are considered Grey. This will lower any issues with bad luck drawing tiles. You still could get a better or worse sector by drawing one that has 3 planets vs 2 or 1, or one that has only an Ancient (see #2 Ancient Outpost), but it won't hamper anything as you can choose which track to take the cube from.
I feel this also makes advanced planets a bit more valuable as if you took most of your non advanced planets for money, then you may really need advanced mining. You can effectively play to your advanced planet draws.

Now I am not fully sure about these house rules as they were the late night, can't sleep, rantings of a pissed off loser, but I think they could help if refined. One thing for #3 is maybe if there are two planets in the hex you just influenced, you have to use 2 difference population tracks, this will at least keep it from being everyone can do 12 actions per round but build nothing etc.

Alright well I will think about this more.
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Subscribe sub options Wed Feb 1, 2012 3:43 pm
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Forrest Ryan
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Hansa and Eclipse are my two favorite games. cool

I think you just need more practice at Eclipse. The strategies are not always completely obvious. Having the most money certainly sounds good, but quite often if you are short on actions, you have claimed systems too early.

Quote:
All non advanced planets are considered Grey. This will lower any issues with bad luck drawing tiles.


That would be ridiculous! There's very little bad luck in tile drawing, just bad strategy in using those tiles.

As a beginner, every time I explored a hex I would influence it. One planet, two planet, doesn't matter. After ten games, I no longer play this way. I focus my empire on the valuable systems so that I am not wasting my discs. I'll still often place the sector, but I will not influence it, or I'll abandon it. One can always influence it later.

You could think of it this way. Claiming a system with a single brown planet is trading X money for Y materials each turn. The more actions you take, the higher value of X. Playing Terran you already have a 2:1 trade ratio, so you'd better be getting at least 2:1, and often money is more valuable in the first rounds, you don't want to be trading it anyway!

So, say I've drawn these one planet systems where I don't influence. My empire is small, I must be losing! Not so, because my empire is much more efficient! Notice how much more you have to pay in upkeep as your empire gets larger. Those tiles also had discoveries on them, giving me a boost somewhere.

Another note about being the richest player on the board and having all that stuff ... that attracts a LOT of attention. Claiming the GCD will probably connect you with EVERYONE, making you very vulnerable. You also probably have larger borders than anyone else.

The +resources tiles. Early game, they allow you to either (money) take a bunch more actions, or (science) claim a technology that nobody else could even consider. Those are both very powerful. Also, don't underestimate +2VP. It is often better than any discovery bonus.

Eclipse is extremely well balanced, it s just done so subtly that is easy to miss.
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  • Edited Wed Feb 1, 2012 4:21 pm
  • Posted Wed Feb 1, 2012 4:21 pm
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Jeff A
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I can appreciate what you are saying, however I think I disagree with one certain thing.
Quote:
Eclipse is extremely well balanced

I think at its core Eclipse is well balanced. However I think the random aspects of the game have the power to throw it out of balance very quickly. And yes I know a lot of you will disagree, but please read on.

I don't necessarily think that it always slants advantage to one player however I think that in a 4-6 Player game it can very easily slant a far too difficult disadvantage towards 1 or 2 players. And it doesn't have a mechanism in place to help those players, and this is where, to me, the fun breaks down in this game. As I said fun is what is important in a game.

Maybe my thoughts about house rules are a bit extreme, as I said, they are musings from when I was fuming about a wasting 4 hours having no fun, and getting destroyed by a player that didn't have to keep his empires small and efficient.

My destroyer made one bad move though, he extended himself too far into my system, costing him the Galactic center and he ended up getting wiped out too.
Again I will point out that his mistake didn't benefit me at all, in fact past that point it was easier for him just to wipe me out completely than to try for the Center again.
 
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  • Posted Wed Feb 1, 2012 6:08 pm
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Lance McMillan
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Lakebay
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Agree to some extent with all your criticisms, but think you're slightly overstating the problem(s). I emphasize "slightly" because I believe you've astutely addressed nearly every one of my own reservations with the game. I'm an inveterate tinkerer and enjoy "tweaking" games to suit my own tastes, but 'Eclipse' is so finely crafted that I'm having trouble with implementing any that don't interfere with other aspects of the game. I think some of your ideas are interesting and may try them out -- thanks for sharing.
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  • Posted Wed Feb 1, 2012 6:47 pm
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Jeff A
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No Problem Lance. I definitely agree with you, I want to bring early equality to the players, without negatively affecting the other systems. That is very hard to do, and the answer is probably a couple of tiny modifications.

I love the research system and the upgrading. I love the influence system.

One other thing that I think could be a possible answer is slightly altering the influence disk cost to make the financial difference at the top greater. Something like this:


Everything considered I do think that the two biggest issues I take with the game are 1. the randomness of the planets, type not the count, and 2. The lack of a tougher limiting factor on player actions. IMO It should be a real stretch to end a turn with no influence disks on the track, not a cost of $2 to someone who has their money track maxed (which in my experience is at least one person in every game)

Edit:
Vanish wrote:
There's very little bad luck in tile drawing, just bad strategy in using those tiles.

Well Vanish, I don't want to be rude but, maybe you just haven't experienced bad luck draws yet?

Last night of all my explored tiles I had one, I repeat, one, 1, Materials planet to colonize. There were no more hexes to explore. My money was good, my research was good, but I had no ability to defend myself because I could create one interceptor a round, where my destroyer could create a Dreadnaught and an interceptor every round.
Advanced mining wasn't available until it wouldn't have even got me any extra mining and and the height of my empire I would have got 2 more mining pops off with advanced.
I couldn't attack anywhere because in fear my neighbors blocked themselves off from me, my option was toward the GC where red lay in wait with his antimatter cannon, +3 computer, Dreadnaughts and antimatter Cannon with an extra hull Cruisers. I snagged Improved hull on the first turn and was even though I was able to research Plasma Missles on turn 8 to try to take back my home planet, but how much can you field with 2 materials per turn.

I think that's bad luck
 
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  • Edited Wed Feb 1, 2012 8:01 pm
  • Posted Wed Feb 1, 2012 7:42 pm
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Peter O
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I should not post when I'm grumpy. shake

Edited for tact.
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  • Edited Thu Feb 2, 2012 3:04 am
  • Posted Wed Feb 1, 2012 8:49 pm
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Petri Savola
Finland
Espoo
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Even if you get a good start in Eclipse it doesn't automatically mean that you'll run away with the game. You need to play your cards right to preserve your lead. Taking the center is often a good move, but it usually makes your empire difficult to defend. If your opponents play well, they will take advantage of this weakness before the game ends. Nobody cares if you had 10-15 victory point lead on turn on turn 8 if you lost it on the last turn. It's not always a good idea to take the center even if you can, and you don't instantly win by taking the center.

A common mistake I make in Eclipse is that I place too many influence disks on the board. This way I can have a massive income advantage every turn and I can easily pay upkeep even if I spend all my remaining discs on actions. But remember that the number of discs is limited: My neighbor could have an efficient small empire instead and he can perform more actions than me because he has more discs available. He can wait until I'm unable to do any actions and perform a deadly attack against me when I'm unable to react. Overexpanding your empire is risky and high production values do not necessarily mean that you'll easily win the game.

But one thing must be said: If you play poorly, the game can be rather harsh. Your neighbor can wipe you out of the game if you're not careful. Or you can lose 2-3 turns worth of materials by performing an attack against ancients with poor odds. But I don't think it's a bad thing: If you don't play well, you will probably lose. And if you play well you'll always be fighting for the win, unless you face some ridiculously bad luck (and this is very rare!).
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  • Posted Wed Feb 1, 2012 9:34 pm
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Jeff A
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I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

Edit: And Tranenturm, I definitely disagree with your training wheels comment.
And actually the designer guides said (something along the lines of) they intended the action cost scale to give the impression that as your civilization got larger, you had to use more to maintain control. It is thematic, not training wheels.
 
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  • Edited Wed Feb 1, 2012 10:19 pm
  • Posted Wed Feb 1, 2012 10:08 pm
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Jeff A
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For discussions sake I ran numbers on planets and percentages with respect to getting the specific type of planet that you want (pink/orange/brown) Counting Grey as giving you what ever you want.

And compared them to the ridiculous method I talked about in my initial post.


Base rules
Sector 1 /2 /3
O-75% /55% /50%
P-75% /45% /44%
B-50% /55% /61%

Overall
O=57%, P=51%, B=57%

2 Planets = 63% /27% /22% (overall 19%)
3 Planets = 9% in sector2 (overall 2.7%)

So for example if I wanted a brown planet, I should explore sector 3, 61% chance I will get a planet I can put a Brown Population on. If I cannot explore sector 3, I should try sector 2 (55%) then sector1 (50%) Sector 1 will give me the best value, if I get a 2 planet with Brown.

Now assume the rules that, Any non-advanced planet is considered grey, however if I have more than one planet, I must place population from 2 tracks. Now the color difference goes out the window.

One planet, always Grey
Sector 1 /2 /3
38% / 45% / 67%

2 planets, basically one is grey as you can place one of your choice and one of the other 2 colors will be on the tile
Sector 1 /2 /3
62% / 27% / 22%

Now the overall chance that you are going to get at least one planet that you consider valuable regardless of sector from your explore action is 89%, where as in the base rules its 56%(O/B) or 51%(P). However I think that the randomness of finding 1, 2 or 3 planets still gives you decent amount of variance without being completely useless to you if it doesn't match the color you want.
Whoever get the 3 planet spot, it doesn't really change the advantage it will give, as the player will still have to play one of each population. And it decreases the value of grey planets as you couldn't place 2 of the same type of resource in that spot.
I feel that it could take just the right amount of "get screwed by the tile" factor out of the game.

Please, don't bother telling me that the game doesn't need to be changed, that its perfect the way it is. You know, maybe you guys are right, that its because I am bad at strategy, or don't understand the game enough.
This just increases my thought that this would be a good house rule to play with for a few months until we get play time down to under 1hr/player, figure out strategy better etc.
 
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  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 1:38 am
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Jim Richardson


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- If you have such a problem with a runaway leader, maybe the other players in your group need to get better at knowing who the threat is and cooperating to oppose them.

- I could see losing the discovery tile from the center hex. The other changes I don't agree with -- it's in the center, it's very desirable and thus requires a large force to defend (it has in every game I've seen anyway) and that's enough of a drawback to balance out the 4VP and planets.

- I've seen some failed starts due to bad luck, but it was REALLY bad luck: pulling all ancients & crappy systems, then also losing an ancient battle where I had over 90% chance to win. With any system involving chance, it's going to happen, and the game would be boring without any chance. I really don't see it as so big and frequent a problem that I'd turn all the basic planets white. Also note that possessing just one white planet would allow you to shift your production tracks around (using actions), if desired.

And if you want an easier way to reduce bad luck on hexes without outright changing the rules, maybe just remove a couple from each stack that you don't like.

- +5 research AND a free orbital seems crazy. That would increase the luck factor rather than mitigate it. It's fine how it is (choice of resources or VP.)

I've won every game of Eclipse I've played so far. whistle
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  • Edited Thu Feb 2, 2012 3:13 am
  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 3:12 am
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Filipe Cunha
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Welcome to the world of 4X games.
 
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  • Posted Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:48 pm
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