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On Gamer's Games

Wherein I Discuss Those Games Described As Gamer's Games
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Two Different Styles of Civilization Games

Jesse Dean
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My absolute favorite style of video game is the civilization game. Something about needing to manage the multiple facets of an empire while expanding and prospering in the face of other civilizations attempts to do the same just works for me, and I have spent thousands upon thousands of hours playing various implementations of this idea. The most well known of these is the Civilization series, of which I have played every game except for the first one, but after a decade of playing that series almost exclusively I have slowly but steadily been introduced to other games, most notably Europa Universalis III (EU III) and Crusader Kings (CK), that have redefined what I want in a civilization game. As a result of this, most board game civilization games, which tend to follow the model seen in the Civilization series, have increasingly felt lacking.

The Civilization series of video games, regardless of the particular bells and whistles associated with each iteration, follow a general model that has been translated into some very popular board games such as Eclipse, Through the Ages, and Sid Meier’s Civilization: The Board Game. In it you start with a limited knowledge of your environment, and through exploration learn about the world and its resources. By exploiting these resources you grow from a small nation to an empire and win either through military dominance, technological advancement, or cultural achievements (or some combination thereof).

On the whole it provides for a pretty entertaining narrative, and I completely understand why these sorts of games are very, very popular. However, too many board games hew to this particular narrative a little bit too closely, which is good for the sake of ease of entry, but after so much time focused on the video game, and board game, iterations of this I admit I am a bit tired of it, particularly since most of these games focus on combat at the expense of other, equally interesting styles of conflict.

Paradox Interactive, the video game company that publishes EU III and CK, publishes a large number of video games that are good at appealing to more historically minded gamers. They do follow the general civilization game model, in that you end up managing the economic and military aspects of your empire, but they add additional levels of conflict, in the form of diplomatic relationships and trade, that were very important historically but have been largely ignored or abstracted in games of this style. While wars and alliances are powerful options, they are not the only available tools in undermining and interacting with other nations or achieving civilization goals.

So with my shift in preferences in video games, I have also found a shift in preferences in my civilization building board games. Sid Meier’s Civilization: The Board Game was perhaps the first casualty of this, in that it roughly coincided with the beginning of my disenchantment with the genre; it was such a great distillation of the Civilization series that it allowed me to begin to crystallize my thoughts on why I was no longer happy with games built on that model. My dissatisfaction with that model is also why Eclipse and Through the Ages do not quite work for me anymore. They are both very, very good examples of that model, but when I no longer am particularly happy with their baseline it is difficult to be completely happy with a game built on that baseline.

The best examples of what I want are probably found in some of the two player hybrid card-driven games, many of which are published by GMT. Hellenes: Campaigns of the Peloponnesian War and Hannibal: Rome vs. Carthage are good examples of this as they have a fairly strong political component despite being largely focused on sieges and battles, but they pale in comparison to Labyrinth: The War on Terror and Twilight Struggle. Both of these games include wars as tools that can be used to help accomplish your national objects, but they also focus a great deal on other methods of conflict, with coups and contests to influence secondary nations that are important to the conflict in Twilight Struggle, and insurgency and counter-insurgency actions in Labyrinth.

Multi-player games that provide a similarly deep look at multi-player conflict are a bit sparser. Of recent games, I find Colonial: Europe’s Empires Overseas to be one of the better examples of this. While you can and do have the ability to make war on other players, a large part of the game is focused on direct non-military competition. In addition to influence wars over colonies, it is possible to inflict privateers on opponent’s merchant fleets, incite native revolts, and even potentially push other countries into revolution. The importance of trade is highlighted rather than either ignored or abstracted away, though I admit even with my appreciation in how Colonial handles it, I would appreciate slightly more differentiation in this area then is actually present.

Because of its comparisons to EU III, I was quite optimistic Warriors & Traders would also work for well for me. With a focus on country unifications I was hopeful that it would end up providing a multi-faceted look at how these countries founders used a combination of diplomacy, bribes, and force in order to bring their burgeoning nations together. Unfortunately, it mostly ended up being a somewhat scripted, with a focus on combat that is maintained by the sheer difficulty of fights against barbarians and how quickly they escalate in power. It seems that this was meant to make the game challenging, and in that it is succeeds, but it also makes the game a bit too narrow, with only a few reasonable options available at any given moment of time. It does not help that most of the conflict is against the game itself rather than other players. You can trade, and I do very much like how different levels of trading technology can make a trade valuable to both players involved simultaneously, but otherwise interaction is limited to forcing barbarians to retreat into territories your opponents want, and thus make them difficult to impossible for them to claim, or declare war, which is so costly in actions that it is frequently not worth pursuing.

Here I Stand, also fits this model well and with a great deal of depth, but at the cost of extended game length. There are opportunities to politically influence third parties, fight out religious conflicts, compete for the new world, and even engage in piracy in addition to engaging in extended wars. The costs and opportunities of the conflict are very well handled with the card play, and the diplomatic opportunities are heightened by the ability to make mechanically meaningful deals, particularly as the game is designed so that other players will have things that you want that cannot simply be claimed by taking one of their cities.

The fact that probably the best example of a multi-player implementation of this style of game, Here I Stand, is so lengthy is probably a good indication that to have the full experience I desire will require a game that is outside my typical comfort zone for time. I can spend dozens of hours on a single game of EUIII or CK, and distilling it down into something that is similarly rich, yet still playable in a three or four hours is a daunting task. Some additional levels of abstraction are required, but at some point this abstraction shifts too far from something that is useful, and you end up with something like Age of Empires III or Endeavor, which discard what was interesting about these conflicts in favor of something that is bland and largely uninteresting.

It will be interesting to see if someone is able to reach this perfect midpoint between playability and breadth. Colonial and Here I Stand both come close, from opposite sides of the spectrum, but are not quite there. Still, I am pretty happy that I have finally been able to identify what I want in a civilization game and why I find games such as Through the Ages and Eclipse, which are generally well loved by the gaming community, to come up short. They are very good games for their particular style, but it is simply a style that I am just not that interested in anymore.
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Tim Seitz
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They are very good games for their particular style, but it is simply a style that I am just not that interested in anymore.

Heresy! I'm removing you as a geekbuddy!
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  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 5:38 pm
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Matthew Tadyshak
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EU3 is awesome. Did you know CKII is coming? It will be a vast improvement over the original.
I find it strange you don't like TTA. The strategy decisions you can make always leave me wanting to play it again.
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  • Edited Thu Feb 2, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 5:39 pm
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Tom Vasel and I have really been enjoying each other's company.
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  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 5:42 pm
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Dmitry Vensko
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This is all right, still I can't understand how to compare games of so different time span. EU3 doesn't display 6000 years of civilization, unfortunately.
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  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 5:55 pm
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Jason Reid
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Are you tracking Here I Stand's follow-up, Virgin Queen? Unlike HIS, VQ in theory will be more playable without the full complement of 6 players, which might shorten it compared to its predecessor.
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  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 5:55 pm
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Seth Jaffee
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Jesse wrote:
The Civilization series of video games... follow a general model that has been translated into some very popular board games such as Eclipse, Through the Ages, and Sid Meier’s Civilization: The Board Game. In it you start with a limited knowledge of your environment, and through exploration learn about the world and its resources. By exploiting these resources you grow from a small nation to an empire and win either through military dominance, technological advancement, or cultural achievements (or some combination thereof).

On the whole it provides for a pretty entertaining narrative, and I completely understand why these sorts of games are very, very popular. However, too many board games hew to this particular narrative a little bit too closely, which is good for the sake of ease of entry, but after so much time focused on the video game, and board game, iterations of this I admit I am a bit tired of it.

I have not read any further yet, but wanted to say that at this point in the original post I'm thinking:

Isn't that (bolded portion) the exact definition of the genre? Perhaps Jesse is simply tired of civ games in general...

I'm interested now to read on and see what you propose a civilization game could do differently (and still be considered a civ game)!

Edit: After reading the whole thing I'm now thinking:
Now you see why designers consider a good civ game to be the Holy Grail of game design!
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  • Edited Thu Feb 2, 2012 6:03 pm
  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 5:57 pm
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Jason Reid
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Quote:
Of recent games, I find Colonial: Europe’s Empires Overseas to be one of the better examples of this. While you can and do have the ability to make war on other players, a large part of the game is focused on direct non-military competition. In addition to influence wars over colonies, it is possible to inflict privateers on opponent’s merchant fleets, incite native revolts, and even potentially push other countries into revolution.


Thematically these things are different from straight military conflict, but given how abstract Colonial is, I struggle to see a significant mechanical or emotional difference between them. Ultimately, given that game's structure, all of those different conflict modes appear to take the same shape: I expend some of my resources to directly drain the resources of one specific opponent. If I'm any good at it, I'm exchanging discs from the correct pile of mine for discs of the proper pile from yours. But it doesn't feel particularly deep to me.

Don't get me wrong...the introduction of those thematic options is welcome, but Colonial's implementation didn't advance the design thinking enough for me.
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  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 6:03 pm
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Andrew Foerster
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I can easily see why a comprehensive Civ game is so difficult to create, but you're exactly right in that sometimes the abstraction feels a bit "off".

In the Civ computer games, wars often times will simply allow single units (or stacks of units) to skirmish with other units, likely introducing some sort of "war fatigue". It never feels like there's much of anything beyond that ... no great strategery in aligning your forces, or no great motivation to the conflict aside from eliminating an opponent or grabbing some territory. And yet the conflict element of these games is so central and seems to have had a lot of attention devoted to it.

And then it carries over to Civ board games. (Of what you mention, I've only played TtA, and I enjoy it greatly so ...) In TtA, conflict is significant enough that it has its own event phase and players get separate actions for military (and, also, thus forcing military events, units, etc. into the mix). Still, conflicts are a single turn (wars resolve just in one turn) and feel like nothing more than merely a skirmish. It doesn't feel like a true war that is protracted and has all of the other civ consequences (resource commitment, the boom times afterwards, etc.). So alternatively, you don't feel as if the big long, exhausting slog of war (with payoffs and consequences) actually occurs in these games, and you feel like you're getting in all these little skirmishes but they become instrumental in deciding many games (this last point I've especially seen regarding TtA).

But, still, I think the video and board games focus so heavily on this (thin) military element because that's the most salient form of conflict that comes to mind. "I'm designing a Civ game ... oh, better include military and war!", thus ignoring all sorts of other interesting interaction (which may or may not be straight conflict).

Trading, e.g. is often really shoddily implemented (even in computer versions, where I believe trading for silk, say, simply increases some happiness), but this could be an interesting place to add individual value judgments, or to balance one's "path to victory" ("I'm going tech and commerce, so I'll trade for iron and uranium to defend myself rather than research that path myself"), and also as a form of conflict in embargos or whatever.

Or other such things, how technology and culture will creep across separate civilizations (Culture A knows printing and so Culture B will gradually obtain knowledge of printing, maybe as part of a Commerce action in which A sells B printed goods). Also useful, perhaps, as a catchup mechanism!

And, of course, government and legislation. It's pretty much every abstracted into some combination of happiness, military strength, and population growth, or whatever, without any nuance within the forms of government. It's sort of disappointing in the Civ computer games they'll have gads of different units (also disappointing in that these units were often just blown up rocks or papers or scissors) all with different stats and such, but their governments get really abstracted into certain numbers.

I still love TtA, but I do think that a lot of what Civ games *could* be isn't truly captured in this game.
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  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 6:13 pm
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Oliver Kiley
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Really interesting post!

I've noticed this over-emphasis on skirmishes + war occupying a disproportionate amount of the game time. I recently played the Vassal module for Eclipse, and while I like the game, so much of the game is geared towards military conflict from a mechanics standpoint and VP standpoint. Of course, the game isn’t trying to "not" do that, so I’m not faulting the design at all, it’s just how it is.

I think part of it ends up being where military-related mechanics are implemented at a more detailed level than all the other mechanics, which are implemented at a more abstract level. It leads to a sort of discontinuity and misappropriation of value in different pursuits or potential strategies.

Some examples + elaboration. Wars in history haven’t always been fought over territory and resources, often times they have been fought for cultural or ideological differences. In this way, the war is really costing both sides a lot with little monetary/resource gain. Perhaps the result is a shift in cultural dominance? That isn’t something that’s well modeled in game mechanics.

Or, consider a game where if my opponent is getting aggressive militarily, I can choose to peruse a menu of military responses OR perhaps adopt an economic/commerce strategy that deprives them of the resources to inflict grievous harm on my empire. Or that the war poses high political costs that erode the attacking nations populist support for the war action.

It does seem that most games make the war a means to an end, rather than having force be one instrument of competition, on part with others like economic, political, or cultural forces, that interact crisscrossing ways.
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  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 7:05 pm
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Jesse Dean
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NBAfan wrote:
EU3 is awesome. Did you know CKII is coming? It will be a vast improvement over the original.
I find it strange you don't like TTA. The strategy decisions you can make always leave me wanting to play it again.


Absolutely. I even took Tuesday off next week in order to have a day to play it. Of course, they ended up pushing it back a week. shake

I have played Through the Ages 33 times. I eventually reached the point where I outstripped the local competition and was essentially winning by similarly large amounts of points using the same strategy every single time I played. So I actually grew tired of Through the Ages before I realized I wasn’t interested in the regular Civ-style structure anymore, and my frequent play of it probably contributed to my current disinterest in the genre. Much like SM’s: Civ TBG it is an excellent distillation of the genre and highlights its flaws in addition to the positive aspects of it.
 
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  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 7:12 pm
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Oliver Kiley
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Danger: Self-promoting following up

In the game I'm working on (Hegemonic) I did think about this very issue early on in the design. Hegemonic has an industrial, political, martial system that consists of building + networking different base types (complexes, embassies, outposts respectively) to amass power . Player's can use any of these systems to attack any of the other systems in various ways. I.E., the "Usurp" action lets you try and use your martial power to take over a player's political embassy, the "Neutralize" action lets you use industrial might to bring down and disarm martial outposts, etc. With the "Sabotage" action you can infiltrate your political agents into enemy complexes and ... well ... blow them up.

Given the scope of the game (galaxy-spanning conflicts over millenia), these elements are all pretty abstracted, and one can fill in the story and details with a little imaginination. But they key is that these systems are all equally, albiet differetly abstracted, and no one system is a means to an end. There isn't a "direction" to your empire's growth in terms of the usual get more resources -> make more units -> win more wars -> get more resources. Good play often hinges on realizing when it's worth it to stop pushing with one system and switch to another, even when you have an advantage in that arena, because you ultimately have to diversify to win and you make a big fat target for a different system pray on.

That's the hope anyway!
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  • Edited Thu Feb 2, 2012 7:24 pm
  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 7:23 pm
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Jesse Dean
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out4blood wrote:
Quote:
They are very good games for their particular style, but it is simply a style that I am just not that interested in anymore.

Heresy! I'm removing you as a geekbuddy!


Just as well. You never thumb my blogs anyway. soblue
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  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 7:23 pm
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Matthew Tadyshak
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doubtofbuddha wrote:
NBAfan wrote:
EU3 is awesome. Did you know CKII is coming? It will be a vast improvement over the original.
I find it strange you don't like TTA. The strategy decisions you can make always leave me wanting to play it again.


Absolutely. I even took Tuesday off next week in order to have a day to play it. Of course, they ended up pushing it back a week. shake

I have played Through the Ages 33 times. I eventually reached the point where I outstripped the local competition and was essentially winning by similarly large amounts of points using the same strategy every single time I played. So I actually grew tired of Through the Ages before I realized I wasn’t interested in the regular Civ-style structure anymore, and my frequent play of it probably contributed to my current disinterest in the genre. Much like SM’s: Civ TBG it is an excellent distillation of the genre and highlights its flaws in addition to the positive aspects of it.
I have played TTA around that many times too. Usually I'm the one who gets beat up.

I like your blog, really interesting write ups.
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  • Edited Thu Feb 2, 2012 7:32 pm
  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 7:28 pm
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Jesse Dean
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garygarison wrote:
Tom Vasel and I have really been enjoying each other's company.


You came to visit Tom Vasel in Florida and did not stop to see me. I am hurt. Deeply, deeply hurt. soblue
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  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 7:36 pm
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VDmitry wrote:
This is all right, still I can't understand how to compare games of so different time span. EU3 doesn't display 6000 years of civilization, unfortunately.


The comparison is mostly about the sort of enjoyment they provide more than anything else. I also am starting to wonder if the extended periods of time are perhaps the problem as at that scope the game has to be abstracted out a bit too much. Though maybe it is the kind of abstraction that is commonly used that is the real problem...

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  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 7:40 pm
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Jesse Dean
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jasonwocky wrote:
Are you tracking Here I Stand's follow-up, Virgin Queen? Unlike HIS, VQ in theory will be more playable without the full complement of 6 players, which might shorten it compared to its predecessor.


Yes!
It looks like with the full complement it will be 5 hours for the tournament game and 8 hours for the full game, both of which are longer than I like. I will be paying attention to early reports about how it scales with player count very closely though, particularly since some of the mechanical innovations sound really, really cool.
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  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 7:41 pm
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Jesse Dean
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sedjtroll wrote:

I'm interested now to read on and see what you propose a civilization game could do differently (and still be considered a civ game)!

Edit: After reading the whole thing I'm now thinking:
Now you see why designers consider a good civ game to be the Holy Grail of game design!


Indeed. I am half-tempted to take a stab at, but I probably will not bother because
a) I am lazy and
b) I would probably be an awful designer.

So instead I will just describe what I want rather than trying to make it happen.
 
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  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 7:47 pm
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Jesse Dean
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jasonwocky wrote:

Thematically these things are different from straight military conflict, but given how abstract Colonial is, I struggle to see a significant mechanical or emotional difference between them. Ultimately, given that game's structure, all of those different conflict modes appear to take the same shape: I expend some of my resources to directly drain the resources of one specific opponent. If I'm any good at it, I'm exchanging discs from the correct pile of mine for discs of the proper pile from yours. But it doesn't feel particularly deep to me.

Don't get me wrong...the introduction of those thematic options is welcome, but Colonial's implementation didn't advance the design thinking enough for me.


I do not actively disagree with you on this, as I stated I think Colonial is a touch too abstract to be quite what I want, but I do not think you are being quite accurate when you say that there is no significant mechanical or emotional difference between them. Yes, they both are ultimately about expending your resources to drain resources from your opponent, but isn’t that what most multi-player games with direct interaction involve? Even if you are just sending troops at each other you are simply draining troop resources from them at the cost of some similar loss from yourself. Any time that you are doing something to counter someone else you are performing this sort of mutual resource drain unless something has no cost in either actions or resources, and that particular circumstance is hardly ever true in good games.

For Colonial specifically, I think the major sources of direct player interaction are fairly differentiated. Rebellions do not cost any resources, beyond basic loss of opportunity, but allow you to drive up your opponent’s costs, or potentially lose control of a location that is providing them with victory points and resources, or even lose an entire turn of actions. Wars can potentially have a great effect in both resources and victory points, but at the risk of you also losing some of your own troops or presence in a shared land theater. Contesting control of a territory, requires the expenditure of more resources, but also has a bigger potential gain than rebellions, as you can get the victory points and resource income from the location being battled over.

Now it could be argued that these are not differentiated enough, and I would definitely prefer more differentiation, thus my note about it being a bit too abstract for my taste. I just think that saying that the differentiation is insignificant is wrong.
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  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 8:10 pm
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Anthony
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Interesting read. I struggle with the play time on some of the civilization games but really enjoy the genre in general. I'm most looking forward to seeing Christian Marcussen's Clash of Culturespicked up by some company as I really enjoyed it when I got to spend a month playtesting it last year. It was a very enjoyable game that I hope will get produced. It gave a full experience in only 2 hours.

Zev of Z-Man Games had answered one of my emails that he was looking at it but then he was bought out right after that and I've never heard anymore on it, but hopefully they revisit it after it all settles out.
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  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 8:15 pm
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Jesse Dean
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andrewfoerster wrote:

Or other such things, how technology and culture will creep across separate civilizations (Culture A knows printing and so Culture B will gradually obtain knowledge of printing, maybe as part of a Commerce action in which A sells B printed goods). Also useful, perhaps, as a catchup mechanism!


A few upcoming Paradox games implement a similar sort of tech system. Rather than have true tech trees for which you allocate resources just as if it was another input/output in a machine, you instead have a percentage chance that you will learn a particular discovery, which advances your capabilities in the area related to the discovery. You can do things to effect or advance that discovery chance, but there are not specific technologies that you can research and expect to have at a particular moment. The specifics of the implementation vary between games, but I do like this acknowledgement that innovation is frequently based on non-state actors, and while the state can encourage innovation, it cannot predictably produce it as games like Civilization imply.
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  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 8:28 pm
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Jesse Dean
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Mezmorki wrote:
Or, consider a game where if my opponent is getting aggressive militarily, I can choose to peruse a menu of military responses OR perhaps adopt an economic/commerce strategy that deprives them of the resources to inflict grievous harm on my empire. Or that the war poses high political costs that erode the attacking nations populist support for the war action.

It does seem that most games make the war a means to an end, rather than having force be one instrument of competition, on part with others like economic, political, or cultural forces, that interact crisscrossing ways.


I was actually thinking of Hegemonic a bit as I was writing it, but since I have not actually played and evaluated it yet, I decided to just keep it on the thinking level. The fact that you have very clearly thought about how civilizations/nations interact with each other does make me a bit more excited about the game. Hopefully you can find a publisher soon!
 
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  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 8:31 pm
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Oliver Kiley
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doubtofbuddha wrote:
Mezmorki wrote:
Or, consider a game where if my opponent is getting aggressive militarily, I can choose to peruse a menu of military responses OR perhaps adopt an economic/commerce strategy that deprives them of the resources to inflict grievous harm on my empire. Or that the war poses high political costs that erode the attacking nations populist support for the war action.

It does seem that most games make the war a means to an end, rather than having force be one instrument of competition, on part with others like economic, political, or cultural forces, that interact crisscrossing ways.


I was actually thinking of Hegemonic a bit as I was writing it, but since I have not actually played and evaluated it yet, I decided to just keep it on the thinking level. The fact that you have very clearly thought about how civilizations/nations interact with each other does make me a bit more excited about the game. Hopefully you can find a publisher soon!


I'm on the hunt! Given some of your comments above regarding colonial, Hegemonic might be too abstract for your personal preference, although I'm not sure. It's certainly more abstract across the board than say Eclipse or many other space empire games. But that's also what differentiates it from the other games.
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  • Posted Fri Feb 3, 2012 12:37 am
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Tim Seitz
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doubtofbuddha wrote:
out4blood wrote:
Quote:
They are very good games for their particular style, but it is simply a style that I am just not that interested in anymore.

Heresy! I'm removing you as a geekbuddy!


Just as well. You never thumb my blogs anyway. soblue

That's false!

And now, I expect to post the Loyalty Index you've created, you know... the spreadsheet that ranks your readers by the percentage of your blog posts they have thumbed! (You know you want to!) devil
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  • Edited Fri Feb 3, 2012 3:51 am
  • Posted Fri Feb 3, 2012 3:50 am
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Tim Koppang
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And not one mention of the original Civilization board game? Have you tried it? It's obviously not in this new style you're talking about, but I found it a curious omission from the article.
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  • Posted Fri Feb 3, 2012 4:07 pm
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Jesse Dean
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Despite owning it once, I have never played it. Thus I did not discuss it.
 
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  • Posted Fri Feb 3, 2012 5:13 pm
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John Rogers
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Jesse wrote:
In addition to influence wars over colonies, it is possible to inflict privateers on opponent’s merchant fleets, incite native revolts, and even potentially push other countries into revolution. The importance of trade is highlighted rather than either ignored or abstracted away


I am very interested in Colonial for these additional layers. While I enjoy the tension and interaction of multi-player war games, I prefer seeing the conflict offset or represented using a variety of avenues rather than just a straight-up blow'em up game. An example would be Dominant Species; while it is a conflict game and shares similarities to many war games, there are a variety of ways to go about bettering one's position or inflicting pain on another's.

As always, great insights.
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  • Posted Fri Feb 3, 2012 5:54 pm
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Jesse Dean
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John Rogers wrote:
I am very interested in Colonial for these additional layers. While I enjoy the tension and interaction of multi-player war games, I prefer seeing the conflict offset or represented using a variety of avenues rather than just a straight-up blow'em up game. An example would be Dominant Species; while it is a conflict game and shares similarities to many war games, there are a variety of ways to go about bettering one's position or inflicting pain on another's.

As always, great insights.


Indeed, I almost included Dominant Species in this post because of its similarities to civilization games, but I decided it was enough of a thematic stretch to probably not be appropriate for the content of the article.
 
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  • Posted Fri Feb 3, 2012 6:00 pm
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Tim Seitz
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doubtofbuddha wrote:
John Rogers wrote:
I am very interested in Colonial for these additional layers. While I enjoy the tension and interaction of multi-player war games, I prefer seeing the conflict offset or represented using a variety of avenues rather than just a straight-up blow'em up game. An example would be Dominant Species; while it is a conflict game and shares similarities to many war games, there are a variety of ways to go about bettering one's position or inflicting pain on another's.

As always, great insights.


Indeed, I almost included Dominant Species in this post because of its similarities to civilization games, but I decided it was enough of a thematic stretch to probably not be appropriate for the content of the article.

Might as well include Carcassonne then!
 
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  • Posted Fri Feb 3, 2012 7:38 pm
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Jesse, do you still consider Agricola to be a civilization game? Have your feelings toward it changed based on what you've written here?
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  • Posted Fri Feb 3, 2012 7:47 pm
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Not really. It does not have the sort of conflict over shared resources and ability to engage in direct competition that is required for a "real" civilization game. I still think it is an excellent game, and you could easily make a farming-focused game I would consider a civilization game, Agricola is merely a close relation rather than truly a civilization game.
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  • Posted Fri Feb 3, 2012 7:51 pm
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doubtofbuddha wrote:
Not really. It does not have the sort of conflict over shared resources and ability to engage in direct competition that is required for a "real" civilization game. I still think it is an excellent game, and you could easily make a farming-focused game I would consider a civilization game, Agricola is merely a close relation rather than truly a civilization game.


Fair enough, and no disagreement here. I admit I probably read your Agricola comment entirely too literally.

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  • Posted Fri Feb 3, 2012 8:16 pm
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Jesse Dean
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It was mostly meant to be a fun musing.
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  • Posted Fri Feb 3, 2012 8:32 pm
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The best examples of what I want are probably found in some of the two player hybrid card-driven games... Hellenes: Campaigns of the Peloponnesian War, Hannibal: Rome vs. Carthage, Labyrinth: The War on Terror, and Twilight Struggle.


I was actually a bit bothered by these examples. I don't really consider Twilight/Labryinth to be a civilization games. Certainly you control a country/civilization who is trying to expand its influence, but with I think of civ games, I think more about building an empire and things you do that alter its internal structure (ie. culture, religion, science, etc). These games are more about how your country influences the world than about how you choose to create you country. I really hate to say that Twilight/Labryinth is a war game, because I think that description short changes the depth and innovation of those games, but at the same time, if I had to pigeon hole it, its the closest genre I can compare it to. (Perhaps area control is more appropriate, but I tend to equate the two due to the similar logistics, and perhaps that is narrow minded on my part.) Even by your own definition of "manage the multiple facets of an empire while expanding and prospering" doesn't really fit. I mean, yes there things like the space race in Twilight, but at its heart, it is an area control game where the other facets are secondary. I've not played the other two games, but their appearance, description, and BGG classification all point to wargame.

Now, I'm not saying that your opinions here are wrong, but I do have to wonder if part of the issue at hand is what what constitutes the definition of a "civilization" game. You and I certainly have different ideas on the subject.

Quote:
The fact that probably the best example of a multi-player implementation of this style of game, Here I Stand


Again, I've not played this, but I think this example works in the opposite direction to the ones above. Several reviews of this game describe it as a "card driven wargame" but your description and my interpretation of the gameplay seem to much more closer to civ-building than wargaming, so I am puzzled as to why it gets the wargaming classification.

But to really hone in on your point, I think that part of the problem with your dissatisfaction with civ games has to do with the inherent nature of the scale of the genre. Civ builders tend to be epic in scale because, as you point out, you start with very little and grow into something colossal. Conversely, your two paradigms of near perfection are what you might call "period peices". They achieve the deep and rich details of how politics, culture, and technology mix, but do so at the cost of giving the player broader choices. Breadth must be sacrificed for depth, or vice versa, but I really think that statement can be true of nearly any genre of games. The games that manage to compact a larger-than-average-sized dose of both are not only rare, but are usually cherished by our community for such an achievement.
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  • Posted Fri Feb 3, 2012 9:04 pm
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Patrick Twitchell
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You are comparing games of completely different genres. You're talking about being disenchanted with civilization games because wargames and empire-building games are more pleasing to you.

You mention:
Hannibal: R vs. C
Twilight Struggle
Labyrinth
Here I Stand
(All wargames)

Colonial
Age of Empires III
Endeavor
Warriors & Traders
(all empire-building games)

I will echo what others have said, that you are simply burned out on civilization games. It sounds like you need something with more historical feel to it.
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  • Posted Sun Feb 5, 2012 5:39 pm
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Jesse Dean
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I actually went back and forth how on how to describe the games that I was talking about. I see them as being distinctly related, even if the games that I described as working better for me (Colonial, Twilight Struggle, Here I Stand, etc.) are really a complete subset in the wider scope of bigger Civilization games. An earlier draft of the article described them all as empire games, because even in games whose scope is human history the general idea is that you are building an empire. It could simply be that I prefer games with a more historical context now, but I think that I would end up liking a game that kept most of the civilization game’s other traits, even in overall length of period if they were able to implement a broad based on potential styles and resolutions of conflict. It just so happens that the games that implement it best have been more historically focused or true wargames.
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  • Posted Mon Feb 6, 2012 2:50 pm
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David F
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Look at all the canonical civilization games (including video games) out there and you see one common characteristic: upkeep. This captures the spirit of the first sentence of the OP: "manage the multiple facets of an empire while expanding and prospering in the face of other civilizations' attempts to do the same"

selwyth's Upkeep definition wrote:
Pay resources at specific, pre-determined intervals in the game. These payments must scale up with the size of your empire, civilization or some other form of output-producing engine, and dire consequences result if you're unable to meet them.


Not all games with Upkeep are civilization games, but no game can be considered a civilization game unless it has upkeep.

"Civ" games with upkeep
Eclipse
Through the Ages
Wealth of Nations
I assume SM's Civ goes here (never played)

Other games that have a Civ feel due to having Upkeep
Agricola
Automobile
Dungeon Lords
In the Year of the Dragon
Roll Through the Ages
Shogun
Stone Age
- conservative interpretation is that some of these are civ games (no game can be considered a civilization game unless it has upkeep); aggressive interpretation (mine) is that these are all civ games (obviously with different levels of complexity and involvement).

Conspicuously absent games under the Upkeep umbrella
7 Wonders
Age of Empires III
Dominion
Puerto Rico
Race for the Galaxy

==============

Semantics aside, doesn't seem like you called Twilight Struggle or Hannibal a civ game in your OP (though you did hint at it in your last comment). Sounds like you're looking for a civilization game that has more avenues of conflict, and I agree with that. Through the Ages introduced a complex economic engine and upkeep system with abstracted conflict (counting up symbols); Eclipse streamlined the economy and added streamlined Axis&Allies-style combat; there's room for a civ game that keeps or dumbs down Eclipse's economic system some more and gives more tools for dealing with your opponents.
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  • Edited Tue Feb 7, 2012 7:06 pm
  • Posted Mon Feb 6, 2012 8:26 pm
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Oliver Kiley
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Nice post Selwyth.

One thing I wonder also is how the game's scoring system may or may not give it a civ building feel. Most all of the civ games appear to have many distinct categories for earning VP's, often combining incremental scoring/VP accumulation during the game along with additional scoring mechanisms occuring at the end.

Hegemonic (which dumbs down Eclipse's economy in some ways but provides more ways of dealing with your opponents) doesn't have a "category based scoring system". The scoring is more similar to somthing like Go or Torres, where VP's are based on an explicit spatial pattern/arrangement of your empire at the end of the game rather than what you've done during the game. In otherwords, some civ games give you points for "doing the means" (i.e. points for fighting, making diplomatic relations, researching technology) instead of giving you points based on the "end product" of your labours (which require all of the above).

Anyway, are there other civ style games that have a more focused or centralized scoring mechanism rather than having lots of avenues for getting VP's?
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  • Edited Mon Feb 6, 2012 9:37 pm
  • Posted Mon Feb 6, 2012 9:36 pm
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Fabricio Bandeira
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Great post, great analysis, made me aware of a couple of games I haven't heard before. I do have one small complain, though: It would be great if you provide hard links for the games, like this ---> Colonial: Europe's Empires Overseas
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  • Posted Wed Feb 8, 2012 11:02 pm
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Kiko wrote:
Great post, great analysis, made me aware of a couple of games I haven't heard before. I do have one small complain, though: It would be great if you provide hard links for the games, like this ---> Colonial: Europe's Empires Overseas

The end of the blog does have links for all the games discussed.
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  • Posted Thu Feb 9, 2012 4:07 pm
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Joel K
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Classifying Here I Stand as a civilization game wouldn't have occurred to me. The goals for each power are different enough that I'm not convinced "empire building" is an apt description, either. I always thought of civ games as pretty much requiring some economic dimension--something that's almost entirely missing from HIS. However, it's got historical flavor, diplomacy, war, and politics in spades.

All I can do is speculate, but I don't expect Virgin Queen games with fewer than 6 players to be markedly shorter than the listed times. You might shave off a few minutes with less diplomacy when the Ottomans and/or HRE are in inactive states--but when activated, they'll get dealt cards and have to be managed by the activating player. Their impulses will play out much the same way as if there was an extra player acting as a full participant.
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  • Edited Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:33 pm
  • Posted Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:33 pm
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Dan
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Have you considered Conquest of Paradise? I'm clipping it as we speak. Looks promising.
 
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  • Posted Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:05 am
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Jeff Collins
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I also enjoy civ games, although i am relatively new to gaming. I have found the discussion interesting as i am unsure what i am looking for in a civ game. I have tta and have read about colonial. Has anyone played origins, i am interested in hearing thoughts on it as well.
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  • Posted Wed May 9, 2012 4:14 am
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