pronunciation guide.pdf (23 KB) (Log in or Register to download.)
A listing of the way to pronounce some of the territories that are less familiar to us North Americans. Welsh speakers, please feel free to suggest updates.
Looks right to me, except I suspect the final "e' in Hwicce is pronounced.
Lew
From what I gather, the last syllable of Hwicce is a neutral schwa (uh) and not a fully formed a (aw). Pronouncing it with an h on front is already tough enough for some of us. But I may be completely wrong; I'm not Welsh.
Looks right to me, except I suspect the final "e' in Hwicce is pronounced.
Lew
I re-read your post and think maybe you missed the "uh" after the brackets?
Anyway, I forgot to say, if any British people can tell me how to pronounce Pennines, it would be greatly appreciated so we can stop saying paninis or worse.
Ah, yes I did miss the "uh", because it's so far separated from the HWICK. Probably a little easier to read if the parenthetical remark is after the "uh". Mea culpa.
I lived in England three years, pretty sure about this one.
Concur. I live about 10 miles from them and you're spot on Lew - as in nine pens reversed. I did like the thought of some British guys sat around playing with a non-Britain who nonchalantly describes how his Brigantes would be attacking from the Paninis! Good JD
Just one mistake: The 'th' sound at the end of Gwynedd is unvoiced. So it is like the 'th' in 'thin', not 'the'. I'm not Welsh, but I lived in Gwynedd for 4 years.
Just one mistake: The 'th' sound at the end of Gwynedd is unvoiced. So it is like the 'th' in 'thin', not 'the'. I'm not Welsh, but I lived in Gwynedd for 4 years.
Strange, DD is supposed to be voiced. Is Gwynedd an exception?
Well, like I said, I'm no expert, and 'dd' is certainly voiced in the middle of the word. But perhaps the pronunciation changes when it is at the end of the word, or perhaps it is just the regional pronunciation within Gwynedd, not the 'official' pronunciation? How something is supposed to be said, and how it is actually said in practice, are often two different things (or 'fings', as some Londoners might say...) All I can say is that, in the four years I lived there, I always heard locals pronounce Gwynedd with a voiceless 'th'. But I'd love to hear a proper answer from a Welsh language expert if one is lurking...!
Another important point to add, which just occurred to me: regardless of the correct Welsh pronunciation, if you are playing the game in English, then all you need to know is that no English person would ever pronounce Gwynedd with a voiced 'th' at the end. I mean, have you actually tried pronouncing it with a voiced 'th'? Doesn't exactly trip off the tongue, does it? It's easy to get hung up on exactly how locals pronounce something, but that ignores the fact that 1) even within local populations, the same place can be pronounced in different ways, and 2) English speakers already say Paris, not Paree, so a relaxed approach to pronunciation is perfectly acceptable. Anyway, this is now straying far from the original point, which is: congratulations and many thanks for this useful guide!
Another important point to add, which just occurred to me: regardless of the correct Welsh pronunciation, if you are playing the game in English, then all you need to know is that no English person would ever pronounce Gwynedd with a voiced 'th' at the end. I mean, have you actually tried pronouncing it with a voiced 'th'? Doesn't exactly trip off the tongue, does it? It's easy to get hung up on exactly how locals pronounce something, but that ignores the fact that 1) even within local populations, the same place can be pronounced in different ways, and 2) English speakers already say Paris, not Paree, so a relaxed approach to pronunciation is perfectly acceptable. Anyway, this is now straying far from the original point, which is: congratulations and many thanks for this useful guide!
Some good points Bouvier, and you are obviously familiar with English in it's native speech, however I think most English gamers (although not necessarily most of the population) probably would pronounce Gwynedd as 'th' in it's true form. For the same reason that people having a bit of thought and courtesy for others would pronounce, say Llanelli as 'Clanethli'. Maybe rugby has made that one more familiar!, but only the more ignorant (or self-conscious) would not bother to pronounce a Welsh place name starting LL properly. Gwynedd is the same but less so and only because it is less commonly understood.
Not entirely sure I understand your point, Terraformer, so apologies in advance if I've got this arse-wise. But I am also saying it should be pronounced 'th'. I'm just saying it should be a voiceless 'th', not a voiced 'th'. The Llanelli example you gave proves my point about an English pronunciation being sufficient if you are speaking English. 'Ll' is not pronounced 'cl' by Welsh people. It is pronounced using a sound which doesn't exist in English. English speakers approximate that sound by saying 'cl', and that's perfectly fine, as part of the relaxed approach I mentioned in an earlier post. I think we should be very careful about suggesting that pronouncing a place in any way differently to how locals would pronounce it is insensitive. I suppose it could be in certain examples, but generalising the rule only leads to silliness. Are we insulting French people when we pronounce the 's' in Paris? Should the people of Suomi boycott goods from the English speaking world because we call their country Finland? I think it's great that the author has taken the trouble to give a rough guide to proper pronunciation (it even taught me the proper pronunciation of 'limes' - thanks!). But it is simply the way English speakers would/should pronounce those words. Nothing more, nothing less.
dd is always voiced, and th is never voiced. Of course as you say people's accents change, and Welsh is no exception to this - the -au ending in some words and plurals is changing to -e. English people learning Welsh will pronounce these properly, but when you have groups of people coming together and talking they often get things 'wrong'. If they stay that way long enough the official line will change to coincide.
