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Just Another Soulless Euro (JASE)
Brian Bankler
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Texas
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A bit over a month ago I played Macao, and the first thought the came into my mind? "Just Another Soulless Euro." You have a game that (maybe) has a new idea, but is just boring. Anodyne. Theme repeated. The mechanics? Incrementally better, perhaps.

What makes a JASE? Well, theme should be repeated. Mechanics, ditto. Timing matters. Many classic Euro games would be JASE if they appeared today, but that's kind of the point. They appeared a decade ago. A JASE can be a good game or bad game (although I'll naturally think of a game I dislike as soulless, and a game I like as Soulful), but they tend towards mediocrity. No horribly unbalanced game would ever qualify as a JASE. They'd develop it to bland paste. No, the JASE is a solid performer, punching the clock and doing it's job. I imagine JASE as a civil engineer (from the old Yellow Pages Listing "Boring, see Civil Engineers.")

I've started tagging games with JustAnotherSoullessEuro. For now this is my personal take on the debate, but if everyone uses the same tag I'll revist other titles that pop up.

Based on cymric's comment below, I created a companion, trying to define soulful games.
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1. Board Game: Macao [Average Rating:7.48 Overall Rank:132]
 
Brian Bankler
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Now, to be fair to Macao, I'm not really sure if truly counts as a JASE. However, since it happened to be the unfortunate game that made the moniker jump into my head, it is at least an honorary JASE.

In Macao's defense, the "pick a die, then get those N items in N turns" is a novel idea. But then it's tacked onto a cube collection, pick up and deliver, hey look I'm a trader on a ship, theme.

Verdict -- JASE
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Miguel
Canada
Toronto
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When I hear the "Just Another Soulless Euro" comment, I feel like the game has to be interchangeable somehow. Macao isn't interchangeable with any other game in my collection. Theme? Boring as hell, but the game itself feels pretty unique to me.
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  • Posted Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:10 am
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Frank Branham
United States
Norcross
Georgia
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Hmmm. I actually like Macao in comparison to everything else on the list.
While you get the basic grab cubes to spend cubes to get VP structure, the inherent randomness, speed, and dice that hate you make me want to play it.

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  • Posted Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:00 pm
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Pete Lane
United States
Saint Paul
Minnesota
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I had been feeling a bit overwhelmed by the Euros flooding our market recently... but when I got to sit down and play this I was shocked at how much deeper and more interested this turned out to be for me.
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  • Posted Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:04 am
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Orion Thornleigh
Australia

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I actually like the theme whistle
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  • Posted Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:38 am
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Andrew P
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San Francisco
California
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Flames of Azure wrote:
I actually like the theme whistle


Make sure you never end up alone on any rooftops with Tom Vasel.
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  • Posted Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:07 am
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2. Board Game: Alea Iacta Est [Average Rating:6.66 Overall Rank:736]
Brian Bankler
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I hear you ask "Can you be a JASE if you use dice?"

YES! The trick is to combine it with a set collection mechanic, yet another "Hey, we need to influence these people to maximize our VPs" theme and also to be timed to 'ride the wave' on dice games.

Also, boring me to tears helps.

Verdict -- JASE

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Huzonfirst
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Manassas
Virginia
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I'm not sure how a dice game can avoid this charge (although I guess Roll Through the Ages manages it). For example, I know you like Tom Lehmann's designs, Brian, but his To Court the King is, thematically, as bland and soulless as can be (even the name is blah). Yet it's a really good and innovative game.
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  • Posted Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:01 am
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Scott Alden
United States
Dallas
Texas
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This was one of my favorite die rollers to come out recently.
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  • Posted Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:12 am
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Stefano Castelli
Italy
Rome
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What is this game doing in this list?
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  • Posted Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:02 pm
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Philip Clayberg
United States
Arlington
Virginia
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Comes with dice and plaster-of-paris.
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  • Posted Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:30 am
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Philip Clayberg
United States
Arlington
Virginia
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Or Caesar's Salad.
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  • Posted Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:19 pm
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3. Board Game: Finca [Average Rating:7.08 Overall Rank:282]
Brian Bankler
United States
San Antonio
Texas
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If there were any justice in the world (N.B. -- There is not), Finca would be the game that earned the moniker of JASE first. I can't really remember anything about the game, but you collect items to fill out an order. Oh, and Finca's trying to make the Rondel cool. Now, I haven't really liked any of the Rondel games, but they were trying something new. And Finca took that and removed anything edgy at all from it. Kudos

Verdict -- So JASE.
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Huzonfirst
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Manassas
Virginia
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Now you're talking. The one word that comes to mind when I think of Finca is "pleasant", taken in as negative a manner as possible. Attractive, a tiny bit clever, hopelessly bland, and very, very forgettable.

(By the way, I also recognize that this is quite a nice family game. But I don't need to ever play it again.)
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  • Posted Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:04 am
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Daniel Kearns
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Bloomington
Indiana
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sisteray wrote:

It isn't just that it is overly familiar, it is that all you are doing is collecting sets, for variably available contracts. Because of the high chaos (in quantity of suits that you collect, movement on the rondel, and contracts available) this game comes down to just taking the best move available to you at that point. It is so highly tactical that there is no sense on being attached to anything you are doing because you have no control over what is available to you or not. At that point a player just goes executes all their available actions as the mechanics prescribe, which reveals how flimsy the structure is to the game.


Have you tried Finca with 2 players? You're statement above sounds exactly the way I imagine Finca would play with 4. With 2, it is a very different beast and I find the strategic elements to be quite strong. You really have to pick and control which of the Finca bonus tiles you are going to secure and then actually make sure those are part of the set that ends the game. On top, there is strong control over the rondel with resource denial. I find Finca to be a very aggressive and tight mixture of strategy and tactics (for 2).
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  • Posted Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:37 pm
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Eric Johnson
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Rohnert Park
California
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Beautifully produced game, but suffers a little from an unnecessarily cramped board. Game easy to learn and teach, but lacks interesting strategy decisions; play is largely tactical in nature. Overall reaction in my game group was that there are so many games that are more engaging, Finca will never hit the table. Bland, generic Euro fare.

In short, JASE.
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  • Posted Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:06 am
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Matthew Jeffery
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But, but but... it's got fruit shaped meeples!!!
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  • Posted Fri May 11, 2012 2:18 am
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Mister Sugar


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With two nasty players, Finca is a brilliant tactical game with more depth than it's given credit for.

It's as thematic as most of our Ameritrash games. You are collecting fruit and donkeys from a windmill warehouse and delivering it to the countryside, and the mechanics fit that theme.

I LOVE the rondel, and the board and fruit meeples are lovely and colourful. You can practically smell the citrus groves and the Mediterranean soil in high summer.
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  • Edited Fri May 25, 2012 6:16 am
  • Posted Fri May 25, 2012 6:15 am
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4. Board Game: Vasco da Gama [Average Rating:7.42 Overall Rank:163]
Brian Bankler
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San Antonio
Texas
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I was pretty bored when I played this, but I do think that there may be enough new ideas in VdG for it to qualify as "A neat idea I just didn't like." But in trying to remember details of a game that I played fairly recently (a few months ago), I can't really remember. You have worker placement, you collect sailors, and ... sail.

Verdict -- Borderline.
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Renato Tavares
Brazil
Goiânia
Goiás
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I disagree. Nothing really new here, but it´s a great game, IMO.
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  • Posted Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:32 am
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B. G. Kubacki
Poland

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I'd thumb the choice twice if I could.

JASE
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  • Posted Wed Oct 13, 2010 3:01 am
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Alan Kaiser
United States
Aurora
Colorado
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You guys have to see Tom Vasal's video review of this game:

http://www.thedicetower.com/thedicetower/index.php/game_revi...

And somewhere there is a follow-up to that review that you should really dig up, it's hilarious.
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  • Posted Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:20 pm
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Sean Tompkins
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San Antonio
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I disagree with this one - I like the game quite a bit. The theme actually does fit the abstractness of moving the cubes around, and the set-collection mechanics of hiring crews for your boats is unique.
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  • Posted Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:54 pm
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Joe Wiltshire
Australia
Ingleburn
New South Wales
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Follow up from Tom Vasel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBD_bpq70Pg&NR=1&feature=fvwp

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  • Posted Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:54 am
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5. Board Game: Hansa Teutonica [Average Rating:7.69 Overall Rank:51]
Brian Bankler
United States
San Antonio
Texas
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In my original posting on JASE, I wondered about Hansa Teutonica. I happen to like it (quite a bit), and I think it does have some ideas that haven't been around recently (bumping people to exchange resources for time). Some of the comments also said HT was more an abstract than Euro.

But surely the theme is JASEr than JASE. And the fact that many people really hate means it isn't really bland. Anyway, I'm still conflicted. Hey, we all have things we love that we know we shouldn't

JASE -- Undecided.
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Scott Petersen
United States
St. Louis Park
Minnesota
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This is certainly the best of the games on this list, but it is the cube-pushin', VP earnin' epitome of a soulless Euro.
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  • Posted Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:38 am
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Brian Bankler
United States
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fbranham wrote:
I do adore this list.

Hansa is long AND soulless. It also feels like about 2 or 3 soulless games sewed together without mercy, which creates its excessive length.

Well, I suspect you are years (or decades) ahead of us in being bored with Euros. And even though I think Hansa is dry, it's also pretty fast once you've played twice.
 
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  • Posted Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:37 am
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Brian Bankler
United States
San Antonio
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eknauer wrote:

Looking back, these are some of the games that haven’t made the cut since I was first afflicted with JASE gulp:

-Vasco de Gama
-Cuba
-Finca

These are some examples that made the cut.

-Hansa Teutonica (by a mile, should not be anywhere near this list IMO)
-Peloponnes
-Endeavor (barely)
-Stone Age
-Homesteaders


I haven't played the rest of you list. I agree with most of those, especially endeavor, which I almost put on this list...about the only thing is that I think Stone Age is also "barely"
 
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  • Posted Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:41 am
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Steve M
United States
Lubbock
Texas
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This was the game that jumped to my mind I read your intro paragraph, Bankler.
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  • Posted Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:21 pm
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Jake Waltier
United States
Seattle
Washington
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Has a bored white guy on the cover /= soulless. You're constantly interacting and drinking people's milkshakes. I don't how how it would fit the definition except for the theme.
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  • Edited Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:17 pm
  • Posted Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:14 pm
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6. Board Game: Steam [Average Rating:7.88 Overall Rank:22]
Brian Bankler
United States
San Antonio
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I'm not sure Steam is JASE, but at some point, making the same game for the dozenth time has to count. Train game or not.

Verdict -- If not now, pretty soon.
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Scott Petersen
United States
St. Louis Park
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Besides the unneeded rules changes, the muddy graphics keep me away from wanting to give this another go.
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  • Posted Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:37 am
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Destroyer of Islands
Canada

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Steam may be a re-working/repetition of other games, but it is the first one of its genre that I have played, and I enjoy it immensely. I never would have bought Age of Steam due to the comments that it is very unforgiving and you can know you have lost after your first turn but have to spend 3 more hours playing it. To me, Steam is accessible while the others aren't. And the theme totally works for me.
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  • Posted Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:48 pm
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Jerome Besnard
France
Montpellier
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I do not really like Steam, and AoS, and those alike. But I can understand why others consider it a very good game. It is not souless, just... not good enough.
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  • Posted Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:22 am
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Bill Koens
United States
Watsonville
California
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alex352 wrote:
Well, experts please jump in but wasn't there some kind of lingering dispute between the designers?

Actually, no. Please do not.

Thank you.

(p.s. The quoted comment may have been tongue-in-cheek, but my request still stands.)
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  • Posted Wed Oct 13, 2010 3:29 pm
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Jake Waltier
United States
Seattle
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I disagree that they keep coming out with the same game. The three editions of Age of Steam are edition changes, not new games, and Steam is the same game but taken to a different publisher (with new edition art and rules tweaks to make it easier), so I consider it another edition of the same game. Railroad Tycoon and Railways of the World (same exact game) are the spinoff, so if anything I would blame the existence of that for the notion that the same game keeps being re-introduced as something new. Still, none of them is soulless, except possibly the Age of Steam loyalists.
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  • Posted Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:27 pm
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7. Board Game: At the Gates of Loyang [Average Rating:7.42 Overall Rank:141]
Brian Bankler
United States
San Antonio
Texas
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Thankfully I played this game before I bought it. The 3rd game of the "Feeding Trilogy" (after Agricola and Le Havre), I really disliked this. You play in your own sandbox, have to keep careful accounting and in general meh.

BUT, I happen to think it's just a game I dislike. OK, the merchant thing has been done before, but vegetable merchant is at least a new twist, and with the plots of land I think it's somewhat thematic. The VP mechanic is brutal by Euro standards. At some point (like Steam) I think this could eventually have qualified, but not yet.

And just to be clear, I wish more designers would make a trilogy of games that have one game I play 25+ times, one I play 10+ times, and then one I dismiss after one play. (Ditto for Alea...)

Verdict -- Not JASE, just something I disliked.
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Joe Huber

Westborough
Massachusetts
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I agree; I didn't care for it, but (unlike HT) it didn't feel like JASE.
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  • Posted Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:13 am
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Dave Kudzma
United States
Gumboro
Delaware
Muffins.
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sisteray wrote:
Larry Levy wrote:
sisteray wrote:
I feel that the games where you do nothing but set your engine up to convert suits of cubes into VPs are the nadir of modern game design.

You must really love Colonia, Morgan.


I took your advice and avoided it.


Good. It's easily one of the worst wastes of two hours I ever spent gaming.

Consider my faith in Mr. Henn shaken.
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  • Posted Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:24 am
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Andrius is Lietuvos
Lithuania
Kaunas
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I totally disagree about Loyang being JASE. To my point of view, it's a great game with a really unique feel. It's of course different than both Agricola and Le Havre, but as a two player game, it's one of my very favourites.

P.S. My wife agrees with that completely meeple
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  • Posted Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:49 am
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Joachim Pehl
Germany
Daubach
Rheinland-Pfalz
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Actually is the first of his three games, but was published last.
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  • Posted Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:06 pm
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Dan Poole
United States
Goldsboro
North Carolina
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Ph'nglui Mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!!
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We're charging our battery. And now we're full of energy. We are the robots. We're functioning automatik. And we are dancing mechanik. We are the robots
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Fun
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  • Posted Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:53 pm
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8. Board Game: Cuba [Average Rating:7.30 Overall Rank:164]
Brian Bankler
United States
San Antonio
Texas
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Another game I played earlier this year ... I suspect I wouldn't even consider this if I'd played it 3 years ago when it came out, although even then most of it's mechanics had been seen before. So I'm being a bit unfair ...

Verdict -- JASE
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Eric Johnson
United States
Rohnert Park
California
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A pale imitation of Puerto Rico, this game borrows the plantation player board, the idea of choosing roles which determine player actions, the concept of shipping goods on vessels with restricted cargo capacities, and the construction of buildings which give players special privileges or advantages; unfortunately, its designers didn't duplicate Puerto Rico's tense decision making, interesting player interaction, or engaging theme. Even the Caribbean island theme seems lifted from Puerto Rico.

The game does offer some worthwhile innovations, particularly the clearing of spaces on the plantation boards to erect buildings, forcing a player to sacrifice resource production for development, the mechanism for choosing the first player and the idea of the Statutes (which can affect victory point computation and which can be enacted by purchased votes) are mildly interesting.

On the whole, the game strikes me as a mediocre copy of Puerto Rico, emulating many successful attributes of its inspiration yet lacking the genius that makes the original great. Truly, the similarities between this game and Puerto Rico are so pronounced as to make it appear to be a shameless copy with just enough changes made to avoid a lawsuit. An OK game, rated 6 by me and by my wife, but IMHO, you'd be wise to buy Puerto Rico and forget about Cuba.
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  • Posted Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:19 am
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Ian Andrews Madsen
United States
Logan
Utah
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I agree it is just another Euro, but this one has soul. Cuban capitalism at it's best!
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  • Posted Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:35 am
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Aswin Agastya
Indonesia
Semarang
Jawa Tengah
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I feel that this one is thematically strong for an euro. When I sell something or posting stuff to the ships, it feels like I'm doing it... not just some mechanistic activities to get VP. The parliament, the laws, the buildings... those are great theme-mechanic marriages that creates on overall an atmospheric euro.
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  • Posted Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:41 am
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Dan Poole
United States
Goldsboro
North Carolina
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Ph'nglui Mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!!
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We're charging our battery. And now we're full of energy. We are the robots. We're functioning automatik. And we are dancing mechanik. We are the robots
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Fun, interesting.
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  • Posted Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:53 pm
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Jordan Kruis
United States
Las Cruces
New Mexico
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I personally like this as much if not more than Puerto Rico. I like the idea that you have to give up the resource fields to build the buildings which requires quite a bit of forethought. I also like the fact that while it may look like someone is far ahead early on it is still anyone's game. I don't think it belongs on this list.
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  • Posted Fri May 25, 2012 12:14 am
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9. Board Game: Daytona 500 [Average Rating:7.24 Overall Rank:467]
Brian Bankler
United States
San Antonio
Texas
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No, not Daytona 500 (the game), but the above games are the only ones that jumped out at me in looking through the Top 500. I'm sure that there are lots of average, mediocre, soulless games buried in the middle of BGG. That's what the middle of BGG is for -- the average, mediocre games.

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Tim Thorp
United States
Granite Falls
Washington
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Whew! If this had been included in your definition of JASE, we would have gone to war. laugh
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  • Posted Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:07 pm
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10. Board Game: Fresco [Average Rating:7.43 Overall Rank:128]
Brian Bankler
United States
San Antonio
Texas
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I haven't played this yet, but I've been avoiding it. The rules didn't inspire confidence. Assembled masses, what say ye?

JASE -- Comment below.
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Scott Petersen
United States
St. Louis Park
Minnesota
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Yes, this is JASE. I played it once and that was enough.
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  • Posted Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:36 am
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Philip Clayberg
United States
Arlington
Virginia
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Hopefully the rules won't paint you into a corner.

I've played this game once. But no interest in a second game of it.
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  • Posted Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:31 am
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Dan Poole
United States
Goldsboro
North Carolina
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Ph'nglui Mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!!
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We're charging our battery. And now we're full of energy. We are the robots. We're functioning automatik. And we are dancing mechanik. We are the robots
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Though not my favorite game, it is interesting and fun (IMO). Most everyone I played with really enjoyed it.
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  • Posted Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:52 pm
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Sean Tompkins
United States
San Antonio
Texas
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Played this at BGG.con - surprised how much I liked it after all the mediocre reviews I've read of it. Played it twice, once completely basic and then with some of the included expansions, and was tempted all through the con to go buy it from FunAgain. If "The Glaziers" had been available too I probably would have sprung for it. Hopefully someone dislikes it enough to trade it to me... then I can add it to the "bag of games that Brian hates". I keep them just to torment him.

It is EUro. With a capital EU. But the paint mixing part of it at least falls within theme strongly, and the visuals for the cathedral are wonderful. It's logically funny sometimes to paint a tile using orange, blue, and purple, and then remove the tile to reveal that you painted a white fluffy cloud - but other than that the theme of the game seemed to fit very well and actually made sense, as opposed to Hansa Harmonica, which is just a cube placing exercise (albeit a fun one). I deem this JAE - plenty of soul.
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  • Posted Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:21 am
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Ludere Cum Dignitate
United States
Carrollton
Texas
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"[hyperbole], it's pretty much the best and most exceptional and effective way of expressing oneself all the time ever." ~MScrivner
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...definition of meh.
 
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  • Posted Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:48 am
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102 comments [Hide]
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Scott Petersen
United States
St. Louis Park
Minnesota
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This GL really hit the nail on the head for me. I'm not sure why, but I turned a corner with playing Eurogames--I figured it was just me, but these were the exact games that left me wondering what's missing.
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  • Posted Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:35 am
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Eurojuegos Buenos Aires
Argentina
Buenos Aires
Capital Federal
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Dam the Man wrote:
In reading the "New to you" monthly GLs about the best new games people play, keep coming across Glen More and Vinhos as being fairly divisive. From some of the descriptions, seems like both of those games would belong on this list.

GM:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/63956/item/1596770#ite...

Vinhos:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/63956/item/1597029#ite...


I wouldn't call Glen More JASE. Even if it doesn't tell a story, it has theme all over it. It is also a neat blend of mechanics and has the depth of Carc + all expansions in a box the size and cost of vanilla Carc.

Plus, a game you can pimp with little whisky barrels cannot be JASE.
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  • Posted Tue Mar 1, 2011 2:44 pm
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Doug Richardson
United States
Gresham
Oregon
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This Geeklist reminds just how much I love the "Soulless Eurogame".
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  • Posted Tue Mar 1, 2011 3:00 pm
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Eric Pietrocupo
Canada
Montreal
Quebec
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It reminds me of a category of games I call "Stupid Euro Card Game". Like

Gargon,
Take 5
Take 6
High Society
Wizards
etc.

There are only a few of them that are really good. All the other are a pretext to sell custom cards.

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  • Posted Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:22 pm
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Ludere Cum Dignitate
United States
Carrollton
Texas
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"[hyperbole], it's pretty much the best and most exceptional and effective way of expressing oneself all the time ever." ~MScrivner
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Not being able to add to this list (and the list noted in the header) makes this whole discussion much less interesting (IMHO)... shake
 
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  • Edited Fri May 25, 2012 12:41 am
  • Posted Fri May 11, 2012 6:29 pm
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