sorta...Like those threads on the Wargames Forums about playing wargames with those who were there.
Prophetic words from the Long Telegram:
"(1) Soviet power, unlike that of Hitlerite Germany, is neither schematic nor adventuristic. It does not work by fixed plans. It does not take unnecessary risks. Impervious to logic of reason, and it is highly sensitive to logic of force. For this reason it can easily withdraw--and usually does when strong resistance is encountered at any point. Thus, if the adversary has sufficient force and makes clear his readiness to use it, he rarely has to do so. If situations are properly handled there need be no prestige-engaging showdowns.
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(4) We must formulate and put forward for other nations a much more positive and constructive picture of sort of world we would like to see than we have put forward in past. It is not enough to urge people to develop political processes similar to our own. Many foreign peoples, in Europe at least, are tired and frightened by experiences of past, and are less interested in abstract freedom than in security. They are seeking guidance rather than responsibilities. We should be better able than Russians to give them this. And unless we do, Russians certainly will.
(5) Finally we must have courage and self-confidence to cling to our own methods and conceptions of human society. After all, the greatest danger that can befall us in coping with this problem of Soviet communism, is that we shall allow ourselves to become like those with whom we are coping."
(funny that you could substitute the word "terrorism" for Soviet, Soviet communism, or Russian in most places in the sections quoted, and come to the same result)
This is the main reason why I pre-ordered it. Although I was only 7 in 1989, I still have memories about that dreaded December...
It wasn't dreadful, it was exhilarating from our safe distance. The only part that was really scary was that for a period, we did not know who had the Soviet nuclear launch keys/codes, and who was in charge. Like many, I expected what happened. I had figured it out as a teen that it would eventually happen, but I expected to be an old man before the Soviet bubble burst.
What happenend in Romania, on the other hand, would have been scary and dreadful if you were living there. I remember the pictures afterward, of when the relief went in; the houses covered in black soot, relief trucks handing out soap.
(You can view this discussion as flavor for the game. I am not trying to be political or get anyone riled or to cause embarassment)
Hey, get your stinking cursor off my face! I got nukes, you know.
ClineCon wrote:
What happenend in Romania, on the other hand, would have been scary and dreadful if you were living there. I remember the pictures afterward, of when the relief went in; the houses covered in black soot, relief trucks handing out soap.
I was living in Haiti when the Ceaucescus were put up against the wall and shot. It gave some of the Haitian elite a bit of a shudder for a while...
I see your point there, but I must point a few things with calling the long telegram prophetic (although it was perceptive and mostly correct).
Quote:
(4) We must formulate and put forward for other nations a much more positive and constructive picture of sort of world we would like to see than we have put forward in past. It is not enough to urge people to develop political processes similar to our own. Many foreign peoples, in Europe at least, are tired and frightened by experiences of past, and are less interested in abstract freedom than in security. They are seeking guidance rather than responsibilities. We should be better able than Russians to give them this. And unless we do, Russians certainly will.
We pretty much failed on this point by supporting petty and cruel dictators, men who would be called "tyrants" by Jefferson, Paine, and Washington. Their is something messed up about a nation founded in liberty and revolution denying political rights to other nations. The result was many rebels in the third world became communists. Right now in the Middle East we are seeing this old system of American rule fall apart, but unlike Russia we are intervening. On that note thank god for Gorbachev. He let his corrupt and oppressive system fall without the mass bloodshed everyone feared. I recall when the USSR came apart it was like a balloon deflating, because I had grown up thinking that they were the second coming of Hitler, and expected blood to run in the streets.
Quote:
(5) Finally we must have courage and self-confidence to cling to our own methods and conceptions of human society. After all, the greatest danger that can befall us in coping with this problem of Soviet communism, is that we shall allow ourselves to become like those with whom we are coping."
We went far too extreme with this and the result is anyone in America proposing any sane socialist methods is branded a dirty communist.
Quote:
(funny that you could substitute the word "terrorism" for Soviet, Soviet communism, or Russian in most places in the sections quoted, and come to the same result)
I really don't see much of a connection between the two. The USSR was a vast empire, oppressive, but also conventional in their foreign policy. Terrorists are a desperate bands of fanatics without a nation. They are not a formally recognized power. They are also less impressive, having no nuclear weapons or accomplishments in space flight. However, both have succeeded in getting America to spend so much money on its military that the infrastructure and social safety net, the raw basis of all secure economies, has rotted away.
I see your point there, but I must point a few things with calling the long telegram prophetic (although it was perceptive and mostly correct).
That's the funny thing about prophecy/prophetic: It's only true in hindsight.
gittes wrote:
Quote:
(5) Finally we must have courage and self-confidence to cling to our own methods and conceptions of human society. After all, the greatest danger that can befall us in coping with this problem of Soviet communism, is that we shall allow ourselves to become like those with whom we are coping."
We went far too extreme with this and the result is anyone in America proposing any sane socialist methods is branded a dirty communist.
This was not a result of the Cold War. It started long before, for example, the Chicago Communist Party trials in the 1930s.
gittes wrote:
Quote:
(funny that you could substitute the word "terrorism" for Soviet, Soviet communism, or Russian in most places in the sections quoted, and come to the same result)
I really don't see much of a connection between the two. The USSR was a vast empire, oppressive, but also conventional in their foreign policy. Terrorists are a desperate bands of fanatics without a nation. They are not a formally recognized power. They are also less impressive, having no nuclear weapons or accomplishments in space flight. However, both have succeeded in getting America to spend so much money on its military that the infrastructure and social safety net, the raw basis of all secure economies, has rotted away.
Sorry, but I love debating the Cold War.
I was not comparing Soviet communist state to Middle Eastern terrorism. I was suggesting a literal or near literal substitution of words in the quoted text would still make good sense in reading. In other words, Kennan's suggestions are still applicable to dealing with the current issues, long after the fall of the Soviet empire.
We went far too extreme with this and the result is anyone in America proposing any sane socialist methods is branded a dirty communist.
I think Mr. X would agree with you. That's what he meant by allowing ourselves to become like those with whom we are coping. No witch hunts, no red scares.
It looks great. But Poland's area is wrong marked. Kaliningrad (Koenigsberg) was in USSR then, and it is in Russia now.
I had Kaliningrad on my map, but missed it on GMT's. Well things were being wrapped up today so I don't know if it will be fixed, but I sent an e-mail. Thanks!
This was not a result of the Cold War. It started long before, for example, the Chicago Communist Party trials in the 1930s.
I see your point, and an even better example is the Red Scare of the 1920s, which halted nearly two decades of Progressive reform and labor unions progress. However, this fear of communism was apparently not enough to stop Franklin Roosevelt and the liberal coalition that dominated American politics until 1980. Arguably the Cold War was a major factor in the collapse of this coalition, as the fear of communist domination led to paranoia and a neurotic self-defense of everything America did. For example, what's one of the easiest way to attack Martin Luther King? Call him a red.
Quote:
I was not comparing Soviet communist state to Middle Eastern terrorism. I was suggesting a literal or near literal substitution of words in the quoted text would still make good sense in reading. In other words, Kennan's suggestions are still applicable to dealing with the current issues, long after the fall of the Soviet empire.
Ah, I thank you for the clarification Charles. I agree if we were to actually follow Kennan's advice it would be to our benefit overall. As I recall Kennan was upset that America pursued a policy of containment everywhere at once, and through mostly military means. This why I see his Long Telegram and Article X as perceptive, but not really prophetic, because we did not win through the means he actually proposed.
I am just wary of seeing the war on terror as just another iteration of the Cold War, and i believe this thinking has done a great deal of harm. However, this often happens to the victor of a conflict. They decide to try the same methods with only slight alterations. As it was for Prussia in 1806 and France in 1940, so it was for America in Vietnam and in our current wars.
I think Mr. X would agree with you. That's what he meant by allowing ourselves to become like those with whom we are coping. No witch hunts, no red scares.
I think Mr. X would agree with that, and I failed to make that clear in my reply. I know Kissinger, who grew up in Nazi Germany, did too. What I meant is that Kennan's work was misconstrued at the time. You can see someone reading that in the National Review and saying "if we approve Medicare we are on the road to communism!"
btw, it is a superb looking map. Can't wait to get this game out. Plus these are among the first historical events I can recall, so for once their is a kind of immediacy to it all.
It looks great. But Poland's area is wrong marked. Kaliningrad (Koenigsberg) was in USSR then, and it is in Russia now.
I had Kaliningrad on my map, but missed it on GMT's. Well things were being wrapped up today so I don't know if it will be fixed, but I sent an e-mail. Thanks!
Your welcome. I looked once again and found that division of the province presented on board was introduced on 1999. In 1989 there were 49 provinces in Poland. But don't bother, only Poles would notice that. Best regards
It looks great. But Poland's area is wrong marked. Kaliningrad (Koenigsberg) was in USSR then, and it is in Russia now.
I had Kaliningrad on my map, but missed it on GMT's. Well things were being wrapped up today so I don't know if it will be fixed, but I sent an e-mail. Thanks!
Your welcome. I looked once again and found that division of the province presented on board was introduced on 1999. In 1989 there were 49 provinces in Poland. But don't bother, only Poles would notice that. Best regards
As I remember also Czech and Slovakia made new administrative division after 1989. Slovakia should be divided into 3 regions (+Bratislava).
As I remember also Czech and Slovakia made new administrative division after 1989. Slovakia should be divided into 3 regions (+Bratislava).
Slovakia is divided into 8 self-governing regions now. But if you refer to NUTS classification you are right. On NUTS-2 level there are: Bratislava region, Western Slovakia, Central Slovakia and Eastern Slovakia. This NUTS system is similar to old Czechoslovakian division before 1989 1990 when we had 3 regions 4 regions (Bratislava, East, Central, West). If I remember correctly.
EDIT: now, when I am looking on the map, this is definitely the new administrative division into 8 regions, which was introduced in 1996. (I had to check this with wikipedia )
Okay we were able to fix Kaliningrad and the Polish Voivodeships. I found a map for the Slovak Kraje from 1989 and e-mailed it to Donal. Anything else?
Raiko & Agnes Forever! Feel the Love and Feel the Warmth. Happiness is 2 hugs plus 3 kisses every hour...:D (http://mrboardgames.wordpress.com/)
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Oh man...another game where map ends where Estonia begins....WHY oh WHY???
