War on Terror | Image | BoardGameGeek

Switzerland
Bern

Repulsive..

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Posted Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:01 pm
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Todd Lang

(Kiyote)

Canada
Wellesley
Ontario

Lapppi wrote:

Repulsive..

Strong, the troll is.

Posted Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:58 pm
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Phil White

(maudibjr)

United States
Baltimore
Maryland

malloc wrote:

Except Pete is serving in Afghanistan.

Hey Pete.... good to see you are well, when can we expect your return to game night.

-M

Indeed good to see you well. I wouldn't walk around with the games balaclava.

Phil W.

Posted Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:29 pm
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Bernd Winkler

Germany
Göttingen
Niedersachsen

kgm3219 wrote:

I suppose it is something along the lines of not approaching closer than 100 meters to the vehicle.

In Iraq, "keep your distance" takes on a whole new meaning :-/

/kgm

The people in Iraq must have good eyes to read this sign from a distance above 100 Meters or maybe 100 feet. shake

Posted Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:07 pm
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Pete Belli

(pete belli)

United States

Florida

Thank you for serving our country.

Posted Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:57 pm
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Thaddeus Blanchette

(Macunaima)

United States
Brooklyn

Frankly, I doubt the soldiers really care.

Posted Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:28 pm
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Christopher Seguin

(chrisnd)

United States
Cleveland
Ohio

berserkley wrote:

And, thank you for serving!

Thank you Tim! This sentiment sums up my feelings exactly.

Thank you, Pete, for your service to this county in the Uniform of the United States Army. You are a true hero!

Edited Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:38 pm
Posted Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:37 pm
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Christopher Seguin

(chrisnd)

United States
Cleveland
Ohio

Lapppi wrote:

Repulsive..

You just must be jealous because you don't have a military to protect your ass.

Instead, you have secret banks in your country.

Is one any more "repulsive" than the other?

Posted Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:40 pm
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Kenny Jenkins

Switzerland
Bern

chrisnd wrote:

Lapppi wrote:

Repulsive..

You just must be jealous because you don't have a military to protect your ass.

Instead, you have secret banks in your country.

Is one any more "repulsive" than the other?

Nope, not jealous. Because we don't actually need an army to invade other countries and steal their oil. And I'm certainly no banker.

Perhaps I should try to explain (without much hope of being understood).

This specific image, and the ensuing comments, illustrate to me some points that I find hard to swallow:

- Guy believes it's funny to point a gun at a game-box, while wearing all his Rambo Outfit

- Audience replies: Well donne! Proud of you! USA USA USA!!

- you people routinely get your Iraq and Afghanistan mixed up pretty badly

To you, all this may bee entirely normal. For me, on the other hand this is just soooooo far out from my daily experiences.

I simply can't understand how you people can glorify what your government and your army are doing all over the world. Go read a book (still available in your country?) and try to figure out what's happening...

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:46 am
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Phil Romans

(mdu2boy)

United States
Unspecified
Unspecified

Lapppi wrote:

Nope, not jealous. Because we don't actually need an army to invade other countries and steal their oil. And I'm certainly no banker.

Perhaps I should try to explain (without much hope of being understood).

This specific image, and the ensuing comments, illustrate to me some points that I find hard to swallow:

- Guy believes it's funny to point a gun at a game-box, while wearing all his Rambo Outfit

- Audience replies: Well donne! Proud of you! USA USA USA!!

- you people routinely get your Iraq and Afghanistan mixed up pretty badly

To you, all this may bee entirely normal. For me, on the other hand this is just soooooo far out from my daily experiences.

I simply can't understand how you people can glorify what your government and your army are doing all over the world. Go read a book (still available in your country?) and try to figure out what's happening...

I am not going to get in to a political pissing match on a board game forum... wrong time and space for it.

What I will say is that Pete came regularly to our little gaming group for many a month. We referred to him as 'Army Pete.' Seems to be something about our group to have two of every name that shows up...

Anyhow, we were sorry to see him go. I know he signed up for his own reasons... I am not going to promote what has happened or denounce it at this time. What I am going to do is support the guy there. He is a great guy, and I know everyone in our little group really hopes he can come back safe and sound.

Decry all you want, it is free speech I suppose. (not so sure about forums on for board games...) But I will say it is a slightly funny photo from a guy I hope comes back in one piece. Mentally and physically.

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:27 am
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Sam Healey

United States
Homestead
Florida

Lapppi wrote:

To you, all this may bee entirely normal. For me, on the other hand this is just soooooo far out from my daily experiences. I simply can't understand how you people can glorify what your government and your army are doing all over the world. Go read a book (still available in your country?) and try to figure out what's happening...

I wrote a longer response to your arrogancy...then, I decided it just wasn't worth my time. You're response to the picture fits the country you're from. A country which, historically, has seen fit to sit back and watch tyrants wreak havoc on our world. You couldn't possibly understand what it means for one to take pride in one's country's military (notice I didn't say government). Generally speaking (yes, there have been some mistakes made), the men and women of the US military (and the other Coalition forces) have done a wonderful job with the short end of the stick which they were dealt. And if you think the only reason we went into Iraq is for oil...why are gasoline prices so high in the US? Don't you think that if the reason for going to war in Iraq was to "steal oil" that we would've seen gasoline prices fall? Regime change in Iraq has been a US policy for a LONG time. President Bush was simply the President to actually accomplish it. And don't even get me started about Afghanistan! The atrocities that were being committed against 10-, 11-, and 12-year old girls (not to mention the women) would've been reason enough to send in our troops. The fact that the country was harboring terrorists who were attacking the US (the main reason) was a bonus reason. It sounds like you're the one that needs to "read a book and try to figure out what's going on" rather than simply listening to the biased rhetoric spin being regurgitated again and again by the world's news agencies. I know you live in a peaceful little bubble...but why don't you take a look outside your window every once in a while?

Whatever, man...move along...nothing to see here.

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:11 am
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Patrick Twitchell

(Desiderata)

United States
Ayer
Massachusetts

I think it speaks volumes about a guy who can make light of an otherwise serious job and especially enjoy a game that pokes fun of the "war on terror" (if I understand the game correctly).

Well done, sir!

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:13 am
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shawn a

(boris317)

United States
Hudson
New Hampshire

Lapppi wrote:

Repulsive..

Douche..

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:20 am
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The Galaxy is Just Packed!

(bryanwinter)

United States
Madison
Wisconsin

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:21 am
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Kenny Jenkins

Switzerland
Bern

mdu2boy wrote:

I am not going to get in to a political pissing match on a board game forum... wrong time and space for it.

Wrong time and space indeed. As a matter of fact, that's exactly why I'm opposed to having images of guns on this site. I just didn't find the image funny at all.

mdu2boy wrote:

What I will say is that Pete came regularly to our little gaming group for many a month. We referred to him as 'Army Pete.' Seems to be something about our group to have two of every name that shows up...

Anyhow, we were sorry to see him go. I know he signed up for his own reasons... I am not going to promote what has happened or denounce it at this time. What I am going to do is support the guy there. He is a great guy, and I know everyone in our little group really hopes he can come back safe and sound.

Decry all you want, it is free speech I suppose. (not so sure about forums on for board games...) But I will say it is a slightly funny photo from a guy I hope comes back in one piece. Mentally and physically.

Point taken. I wish him much the same. I do however, also hope that he doesn't inflict to much pain with that "funny" gun of his.

I realize that I'm not getting the full picture of how you Americans experience the situation/war/shit you are in. For one, the only people I know that actually fought in a war are WW2 veterans or refugees from Iran, Iraq or Afghanistan. And also, I don't really follow the US media closely (except for the unavoidable CNN). So, obviously my perspective is different. Add to this my being completely unacquainted with your "gun-loving"-culture, and you will perhaps begin to understand how I could come to the point of finding this image distasteful to the point of repulsion.

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:27 am
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Sam Healey

United States
Homestead
Florida

Lapppi wrote:

I realize that I'm not getting the full picture of how you Americans experience the situation/war/s**t you are in. ... And also, I don't really follow the US media closely (except for the unavoidable CNN). So, obviously my perspective is different. Add to this my being completely unacquainted with your "gun-loving"-culture, and you will perhaps begin to understand how I could come to the point of finding this image distasteful to the point of repulsion.

Of course you're not getting the full picture. CNN is the Grand Pooba of biased rhethoric spin regurgitation. I don't think anyone is necessarily speaking against your repulsion of the image. That's a personal response...no problem. My problem came when you decided to make out "Army Pete" and the rest of our military as being villains (my perception...but "repulsive", "stealing oil", etc. fits here, too), for answering the call for duty. You could've left well-enough alone (still being repulsed), and clicked away. But you instead chose one of the strongest words possible to convey a misinformed belief, and posted it without any explanation whatsoever.

I don't expect you to understand how we in the US think, but it would be nice of you to give people the benefit of the doubt from time to time. I live in South Korea, and I routinely have to give Koreans the benefit of the doubt because I don't fully understand their culture (and that's after living here for 6.5 years). I had to do the same thing when I lived in Germany for 4 years while my Dad was stationed at Bitburg Air Force Base.

Don't be so quick to think the worst of people, and you'll often (though not always) be surprised.

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:00 am
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Kenny Jenkins

Switzerland
Bern

SamHealey wrote:

I wrote a longer response to your arrogancy...then, I decided it just wasn't worth my time.

I sure am grateful for that..

SamHealey wrote:

You're response to the picture fits the country you're from. A country which, historically, has seen fit to sit back and watch tyrants wreak havoc on our world.

Actually, I'm Scottish (One might argue that Scotland is still being ruled by the same tyrants from which the US freed themselves ~200 years ago). Regarding Switzerland: The US might do well in respecting/emulating some of the more thoughtful Swiss policy (not to say that everything Swiss is great, especially not the banks), then perhaps you could also live in a peaceful little bubble.

SamHealey wrote:

You couldn't possibly understand what it means for one to take pride in one's country's military (notice I didn't say government).

No, I really couldn't.

SamHealey wrote:

Generally speaking (yes, there have been some mistakes made), the men and women of the US military (and the other Coalition forces) have done a wonderful job with the short end of the stick which they were dealt. And if you think the only reason we went into Iraq is for oil...why are gasoline prices so high in the US? Don't you think that if the reason for going to war in Iraq was to "steal oil" that we would've seen gasoline prices fall? Regime change in Iraq has been a US policy for a LONG time. President Bush was simply the President to actually accomplish it. And don't even get me started about Afghanistan! The atrocities that were being committed against 10-, 11-, and 12-year old girls (not to mention the women) would've been reason enough to send in our troops. The fact that the country was harboring terrorists who were attacking the US (the main reason) was a bonus reason. It sounds like you're the one that needs to "read a book and try to figure out what's going on" rather than simply listening to the biased rhetoric spin being regurgitated again and again by the world's news agencies. I know you live in a peaceful little bubble...but why don't you take a look outside your window every once in a while?

Recommended Reading:

- Google (for information on international gasoline and crude oil prices)
- "Travels in American Iraq" by John Martinkus
- http://mondediplo.com/2008/09/04usempire
- "Ein vermessenes Imperium" ( http://www.monde-diplomatique.de/pm/.edition/edition). This is unfortunately only available in German.

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:17 am
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"Spartan spawn, sworn, raised for warring."

(Luftwaffe Flak)

United States
Beaufort
South Carolina

Great picture!! The only thing that would make it better would be a Colt .45 as opposed to the 9 mm but I suppose thats all a matter of personal taste (I prefer the holes the .45 ACP makes as oppose to the 9mm parabellum). Also Currahee 101st Airborne!!

I also wish people wouldnt feed the troll shake

. Why bother to even respond to him? Its obvious he was watching this topic from him jumping on the replies. Just ignore him and he'll go away!

Edited Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:27 am
Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:25 am
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Kenny Jenkins

Switzerland
Bern

SamHealey wrote:

Don't be so quick to think the worst of people, and you'll often (though not always) be surprised.

That certainly is good advice. You're right in recommending that I should simply have looked at the image, taken a deep breath of fresh air, and then forgotten about it. I did however feel compelled to express my feeling about the image (NOT "Army Pete" as a person!)

You must however also understand, that this is exactly the kind of picture that makes it very hard for Europeans (or at least for myself) to not think the worst of Americans. Guns are fortunately not a commodity around here. That's probably why I overreacted. Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings. Now lets go and play a game of Imperial.

edited to add the game

Edited Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:32 am
Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:29 am
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Willard BJ Lillo

(bjlillo)

United States
Waukesha
Wisconsin

Bastion of Internet Rectitude

Thank you for your service sir!

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:31 am
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Wallace E. Friedel II

(Mr Freedly)

United States
Toledo
Ohio

Thank you for your service Pete. Keep up the good work. We will still be clinging to our guns and religion here in the midwest when you come home.

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:33 am
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Joe Whittaker

(airmanwhit)

United States

Louisiana

From a fellow BGG here at barksdale air force base thanks for serving and keep up the good work!

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:43 am
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Sam Healey

United States
Homestead
Florida

Lapppi wrote:

Actually, I'm Scottish (One might argue that Scotland is still being ruled by the same tyrants from which the US freed themselves ~200 years ago). Regarding Switzerland: The US might do well in respecting/emulating some of the more thoughtful Swiss policy (not to say that everything Swiss is great, especially not the banks), then perhaps you could also live in a peaceful little bubble.

Sorry for assuming you were Swiss...I went by the flag in your profile info...my bad.

The US taking a neutral stand would have had drastic repurcussions for a lot of nations, not the least of which is that very probable situation that all of Europe would currently be under Nazi control (including Switzerland and Scotland). Not a real peaceful bubble, I would think.

For what it's worth, I don't think you meant to be a troll in this thread...it just turned out that way. Learning experience, I guess.

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:03 am
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Kenny Jenkins

Switzerland
Bern

SamHealey wrote:

Sorry for assuming you were Swiss...I went by the flag in your profile info...my bad.

The US taking a neutral stand would have had drastic repurcussions for a lot of nations, not the least of which is that very probable situation that all of Europe would currently be under Nazi control (including Switzerland and Scotland). Not a real peaceful bubble, I would think.

For what it's worth, I don't think you meant to be a troll in this thread...it just turned out that way. Learning experience, I guess.

An example to show that it's not trivial to assume what would have happened historically, should hypothetical alternate decisions have been made somewhere in our past: If Lenin would have stayed in Switzerland, there would now be such a thing as the "Swiss Sowjet Republic", having colonized half of Africa and still being tied up in a never ending war with the Nazis.
At least this was the premise of a book I recently read ("Ich werde hier sein im Sonnenschein und im Schatten" by Christian Kracht). Some other interesting reads on the topic of alternate history would be "Fatherland" by Robert Harris or "The man in the high castle" by Philip K. Dick),

I wouldn't, however, want to question the necessity of an allied (incl. US, of course) intervention in WW2.

My suggestion regarding "more thoughtful policy" wasn't intended to advocate neutrality. I was more thinking along the lines of "Keep calm and carry on", as opposed to the fear-mongering of the current US-government and mainstream media.

Advice I should have considered myself, before posting my original comment! blush

I just ordered a replica of this poster, and will have a good look at it before posting anything political in the future. That much for the learning experience...

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:50 am
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Robert Wilson

(dude163)

Canada
Riverview
New Brunswick

SamHealey wrote:

The US taking a neutral stand would have had drastic repurcussions for a lot of nations, not the least of which is that very probable situation that all of Europe would currently be under Nazi control (including Switzerland and Scotland). Not a real peaceful bubble, I would think.

Technically I think the whole of Europe would be under Stalins control , they did a pretty good job on the east front especially in 1944-1945

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:57 am
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Bernd Winkler

Germany
Göttingen
Niedersachsen

I love to play war games, but I really hate war for bloody oil!

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:05 pm
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Björn Hansson

Sweden
Jakobsberg

dude163 wrote:

Technically I think the whole of Europe would be under Stalins control , they did a pretty good job on the east front especially in 1944-1945

I second that.

Long live:
* Army Pete
* The american people
* The people of the middle east
* Rock n Roll

No more:
* war
* politically controversial pictures on BGG

And, yes! Let's go play some Imperial or Diplomacy!

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:38 pm
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Richard Turner

United Kingdom
Leighton Buzzard
Bedfordshire

Who is to decide what is controversial? What is wrong with debate? I do not mind hearing views different from my own. Volunteering to fight overseas is a brave thing to do. I think that history will show that the Iraq invasion did not achieve very much sadly, although I fully supported the invasion of Afghanistan where regime change was totally justified.

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:54 pm
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Luke Morris

(HamsterOfFury)

Japan
Nagoya
Aichi

Classy arguments from both sides I see as per usual.

Soldiers do their duty, whatever side they're on, and do as they're ordered. They don't make the big political decisions and have to see all kinds of horrible things and experience some terrible stuff.

Whatever peoples' views on wars and politics, we should always pray (or hope for depending on how religious you are) for quick resolutions and the safety of all men concerned.

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:24 pm
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Bonaparte

United States
DesMoines
Washington

Bernd13 wrote:

I love to play war games, but I really hate war for bloody oil!

Couldn't let it die huh? The previous pissing session had come to a reasonable close. You have to try to fire it up again. Nice. Strange that Americans get the bad wrap for unnecessary aggression. Ignorance and arrogance is a terrible combination. shake

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:36 pm
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Bonaparte

United States
DesMoines
Washington

dude163 wrote:

Technically I think the whole of Europe would be under Stalins control , they did a pretty good job on the east front especially in 1944-1945

Actually the Soviets did a horrible job on the Eastern Front. They won a war of attrition at a catastrophic cost. They won not because they had better strategy or tactics but because they had home territory, massive manpower resource, and really cold winters. The history spinners that like to say that the Soviets won the war and that the west just tagged along are misinformed. Yes the Soviets managed to make it to Berlin and they fought a significantly larger percentage of the Germans, but they botched it at nearly every turn and were sustained by Western supplies throughout. No disrespect intended to the noble Russian people, but it is irritating when the Soviet military is given far more credit than they deserve.

Edited Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:45 pm
Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:45 pm
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Pete Winkel

(BadLT)

United States
Sparks
Maryland

In the struggle of “Impact vs. Intent” intent just doesn’t stand a chance with SOME people, does it? To those people I say: take your pot shot at me and my country, promote your agendas, reveal your prejudices, or just flat out declare that everyone who doesn’t think like you is stupid.

For me, boardgaming is a fun way to escape from the stresses in life. That is especially true now given my current address. My intent with this picture was strictly to have fun with this game in much the same fashion that the game itself takes - a satirical approach to an albeit serious issue. I think most people are fans of this web site for the fun factor, so I don’t think I owe any apologies for the picture. Besides, the box lid of this very fun game is covered with images that are far more violent, “repulsive”, satirical, whatever . . .

It is true, however, that all U.S. soldiers are bloodthirsty Rambo clones. It is most unfortunate for me that I work in Information Systems and pretty much sit at a desk all day. However, I am circling my desk now and firing my weapon in the air screaming USA! USA! at the top of my lungs – I hope all you Yanks are applauding this act. Yes, I am a Chairborne Ranger, but I am damn proud to wear this uniform. I am sure the Poles, Aussies, Kiwis, Brits, Czechs, Egyptians, Fins, and others that I see here almost every day are just as proud to be wearing theirs. We're all proud of what the coalition is doing here in Afghanistan. I have seen first hand the gratitude of the people here even though each mission hasn't always gone perfectly.

If you live in a country where you think your society works so much better then Americas it is probably because your country does not have to spend money on a defense budget. You can thank the American tax-payer, American soldier, and all of the nations mentioned above for that. We’ll do the heavy lifting, sit back in your easy chair and decry those doing all the work around the world.

To all my buddies back in the Mecca of boardgaming (Essen has nothing on Baltimore), who is driving the Caboose in my absence? Raise a Natty Boh for me and I will see you when I get back.

Warm regards,
BadLT

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:35 pm
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Joshua Harris

(Cornbread46)

United States
Oshkosh
Wisconsin

I really don't think anyone WON in a war that cost nearly 75,000,000 lives, No matter your thoughts on the Russian army or tactics, it would not have been NEARLY as possible for ANYONE to win without Russia and it's "human wall" tying up the German's Eastern resources.

(Keep in mind, I'm no military theorist or anything, I just like looking at charts.)

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:48 pm
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Bonaparte

United States
DesMoines
Washington

Cornbread46 wrote:

I really don't think anyone WON in a war that cost nearly 75,000,000 lives, No matter your thoughts on the Russian army or tactics, it would not have been NEARLY as possible for ANYONE to win without Russia and it's "human wall" tying up the German's Eastern resources.

No question about the value of the human wall. If you choose to say survived instead of won, that is fine. But the Soviets were in no place to take all of Europe, nor would they have taken half of it without western support. Sadly with any military savvy, their casualty count could have been significantly lower.

Edited Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:54 am
Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:38 pm
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David McLeod

(Axelfudge)

Canada
Ottawa
Ontario

Is the joke in this that the guy has a box of terror and it's not a 100m back? I don't know, neat picture but if that was an Afghani he'd probably not be alive right now. That's not so funny.

Not a bad taste picture but is what it is.

Edited Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:59 pm
Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:56 pm
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Björn Hansson

Sweden
Jakobsberg

Dave Davies wrote:

nor would they have taken half of it without western support.

That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. Any serious WW2 historian will vouch for that.

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:32 pm
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Björn Hansson

Sweden
Jakobsberg

RCTurner wrote:

Who is to decide what is controversial? What is wrong with debate?

Well I reckon a lot of Iraqi or Afghan boardgamers, who consider themselves occupied, might be offended by it. I'm not saying that they are occupied or that the USA are doing anything wrong. It's a question of respect for other people.

Pictures of swastikas might not be controversial to some, to others they are the epiphamy of evil. Why not a picture of someone playing a game called "Death to America, they deserve it" while burning the American flag at ground zero on 9/11 next year? Some people might find that offensive.

Thus it would be better to keep BGG a non-political site where we focus on games.

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:43 pm
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Bonaparte

United States
DesMoines
Washington

taragalinas wrote:

Dave Davies wrote:

nor would they have taken half of it without western support.

That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. Any serious WW2 historian will vouch for that.

You are underinformed.

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:43 pm
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Bonaparte

United States
DesMoines
Washington

taragalinas wrote:

Why not a picture of someone playing a game called "Death to America, they deserve it" while burning the American flag at ground zero on 9/11 next year?

This correlation escapes me. How do you possibly equate this photograph with what you describe. Neither the image or the game is glorifying Death to a country or catastrophic terror.

taragalinas wrote:

Thus it would be better to keep BGG a non-political site where we focus on games.

The picture is non political. It is a picture of a guy on deployment holding a game about fighting terrorism. These reduculous statements are what are making things political. shake

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:49 pm
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Andrew Carlstrom

(Cleitus the Black)

United States
San Marcos
California

BadLT wrote:

If you live in a country where you think your society works so much better then Americas it is probably because your country does not have to spend money on a defense budget. You can thank the American tax-payer, American soldier, and all of the nations mentioned above for that. We’ll do the heavy lifting, sit back in your easy chair and decry those doing all the work around the world.

Brilliant summation.

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:15 pm
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Kenny Jenkins

Switzerland
Bern

BadLT wrote:

In the struggle of “Impact vs. Intent” intent just doesn’t stand a chance with SOME people, does it? To those people I say: take your pot shot at me and my country, promote your agendas, reveal your prejudices, or just flat out declare that everyone who doesn’t think like you is stupid.

For me, boardgaming is a fun way to escape from the stresses in life. That is especially true now given my current address. My intent with this picture was strictly to have fun with this game in much the same fashion that the game itself takes - a satirical approach to an albeit serious issue. I think most people are fans of this web site for the fun factor, so I don’t think I owe any apologies for the picture. Besides, the box lid of this very fun game is covered with images that are far more violent, “repulsive”, satirical, whatever . . .

I wasn't familiar with the concept of "Impact vs. Intent" before your brought it up. After googling it, I understand it as follows: Impact is what really matters as it's objectively measurable, intent is highly subjective and a personal matter, therefore all actions should be judged by their impact. I presume this would apply to your stupid image and to my stupid initial comment. Fact (Impact) is: we both upset some people, intentional or not. Please correct me if I completely misunderstood you. Pointing out the impact your image had on me isn't, at least in my book, the same as saying "everyone who doesn’t think like me is stupid".

I also think that most people are attracted to the geek for its fun factor, I myself certainly am. The issue we are having here is exactly about this: not all people consider the same things funny. Some people might even find your idea of fun rather offensive. Other people will find the (perhaps unlucky) wording of my comment offensive.

BadLT wrote:

If you live in a country where you think your society works so much better then Americas it is probably because your country does not have[/b] to spend money on a defense budget. You can thank the American tax-payer, American soldier, and all of the nations mentioned above for that. We’ll do the heavy lifting, sit back in your easy chair and decry those doing all the work around the world.

You just might want to ask yourself WHY the US HAVE to spend so much of their budget on defense/security/war?

I must admit that I'm surprised you joined this "discussion". Thanks for your reaction. Even though we probably disagree on many things, I believe it's always valuable for people to be in dialogue with each other.

Glad to hear that you're getting some positive feedback from the people in Afghanistan. I wish you good luck for all the things you do that might warrant such feedback, and honestly hope you will safely return to your gaming buddies back home.

Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:26 pm
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Björn Hansson

Sweden
Jakobsberg

Dave Davies wrote:

This correlation escapes me. How do you possibly equate this photograph with what you describe. Neither the image or the game is glorifying Death to a country or catastrophic terror.

I - as in ME personally - do not equate the photograph with anything. I have no problem with the USA, well not more than most other countries anyway.

The problem is that to SOME people it does equate that. They see themselves as occupied, they see the US Army as something opressive and the cause of all their problems. To them US foreign politics is catastrophic terror. They do not even have to be middle eastern. A LOT of people in Europe would find that picture offensive.

To not be able to relate to that shows a severe lack of empathy.

Quote:

The picture is non political. It is a picture of a guy on deployment holding a game about fighting terrorism. These reduculous statements are what are making things political. shake

Well a nazi soldier standing in front of Treblinka holding a game called Cleansing the World would also be just "a guy on deployment".

You sir - with all due respect - need to think outside the box for a while and try to understand how other people VIEW the US Army on deployment and how they VIEW the war on terror. The world isn't just black and white or good vs evil.

As far as the whole "The Soviets wouldn't have made it without the allies" issue we'll just have to disagree - completely.
You're a history teacher, I have a university degree in history. I assume that we both have read a lot of books on the subject and that it would be very nice to sit down and discuss it, to compare diferrent scholars' take on it, but this forum thread is not the right place.

Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:06 am
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Kenny Jenkins

Switzerland
Bern

Dave Davies wrote:

The picture is non political. It is a picture of a guy on deployment holding a game about fighting terrorism. These reduculous statements are what are making things political. shake

Guy on deployment, proudly displaying his gun, fighting terrorism = NOT political?

I'm sure as hell glad you never were my history teacher...

Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:24 am
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Bonaparte

United States
DesMoines
Washington

Lapppi wrote:

I'm sure as hell glad you never were my history teacher...

While I am certain that I would not be qualified to teach Swiss history and its global impact, (does that extend beyond the SWISS ARMY KNIFE?) I am equally certain that you would benefit from an education.

Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:53 am
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Michael Stephan

(StephanStrategy)

United States
Evans
Georgia

Take care LT.
I am praying for all of you guys over there. Stay safe.

CH (CPT) Michael Stephan
US ARMY Chaplain

"I will be strong and courageous. I will not be terrified or discouraged; for the Lord my God is with me wherever I go." Joshua 1:9

Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:55 am
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Patiently waiting for the zombie apocalypse...

United States
Colorado Springs
Colorado

Dave Davies wrote:

dude163 wrote:

Technically I think the whole of Europe would be under Stalins control , they did a pretty good job on the east front especially in 1944-1945

Actually the Soviets did a horrible job on the Eastern Front. They won a war of attrition at a catastrophic cost. They won not because they had better strategy or tactics but because they had home territory, massive manpower resource, and really cold winters. The history spinners that like to say that the Soviets won the war and that the west just tagged along are misinformed. Yes the Soviets managed to make it to Berlin and they fought a significantly larger percentage of the Germans, but they botched it at nearly every turn and were sustained by Western supplies throughout. No disrespect intended to the noble Russian people, but it is irritating when the Soviet military is given far more credit than they deserve.

Dave, I would agree with you to a point, but would also disagree.

The Soviet Union was an excellent war machine once the war turned in their favor. It did not bumble to victory. Further, it was Hitler's megalomania that lead to the destruction of the 6th Army at Stalingard AND the brilliant defense by Chuikov and counter offensive by Marshal Zhukov that lead to the turning point in the war on the East Front. As the war swung in the Soviet's favor many German Marshals recognized the fact this was not the same army they faced in 1941. "They(the Soviets) learned to fight from us, as many of the German generals would say."

I defiantly do not believe the west "just tagged along" it was a combination of the two forces that crushed the German war machine. Granted their tactics seemed a bit barbaric (human wave attack etc.) to a Westerner's point of view but the Eastern Front was a brutal war fueled by an intense hatred I believe only matched by the United States and Japan in the Pacific campaign. But the Soviets DO deserve A LOT of credit for the victory in Europe.

Once last thing.
I'm proud to be an American!
I'm proud I can own a GUN!
I'm proud I can say what I want in this country!
I'm proud of our fighting men!
I love healthy discussions on politically charged topics!

also... this is a picture that was just meant to be FUN! I think it is brilliant!

Stars and Stripes forever,

Randall

Edited Sat Oct 25, 2008 2:21 am
Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 2:19 am
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Kenny Jenkins

Switzerland
Bern

Dave Davies wrote:

While I am certain that I would not be qualified to teach Swiss history and its global impact, (does that extend beyond the SWISS ARMY KNIFE?) I am equally certain that you would benefit from an education.

You might be quite surprised to learn that there are some countries and organizations out there that have made a global impact, without being actively involved in killing millions of people.

What's this "education" thing you're talking about? Sounds interesting... I guess it must be some local brand of alcoholic beverage? Beer perhaps? Please enlighten me.

Edited Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:44 am
Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:43 am
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Luke Morris

(HamsterOfFury)

Japan
Nagoya
Aichi

Dave Davies wrote:

Lapppi wrote:

I'm sure as hell glad you never were my history teacher...

While I am certain that I would not be qualified to teach Swiss history and its global impact, (does that extend beyond the SWISS ARMY KNIFE?) I am equally certain that you would benefit from an education.

Believe me, Swiss global impact extends beyond the Swiss Army Knife.
Also believe it or not, size of global impact does not directly equate to how great a country is, and that's coming from a Brit whose country has had the biggest global empire in history.

Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:20 am
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Luke Morris

(HamsterOfFury)

Japan
Nagoya
Aichi

CM Randall wrote:

Once last thing.
I'm proud to be an American!
I'm proud I can own a GUN!
I'm proud I can say what I want in this country!
I'm proud of our fighting men!
I love healthy discussions on politically charged topics!

also... this is a picture that was just meant to be FUN! I think it is brilliant!

Stars and Stripes forever,

Randall

I'm proud to be British!
I'm proud I can say what I want about my country!
I'm proud of our fighting men!
I love healthy discussions on politically charged topics!
I'm proud that our government outright banned handguns the second that the first little kids were killed in our first ever school shooting!

We're all wrong anyway. It's well known that Sweden is the best, happiest and most wonderful country in the world.....And they have amazing looking women.

Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:23 am
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Patiently waiting for the zombie apocalypse...

United States
Colorado Springs
Colorado

HamsterOfFury wrote:

I'm proud to be British!
I'm proud I can say what I want about my country!
I'm proud of our fighting men!
I love healthy discussions on politically charged topics!
I'm proud that our government outright banned handguns the second that the first little kids were killed in our first ever school shooting!

We're all wrong anyway. It's well known that Sweden is the best, happiest and most wonderful country in the world.....And they have amazing looking women.

That is awful and tragic...

But Luke I would be against banning those guns because we may have to beat you Redcoats again...

Just kidding.... kinda

By the way your right about Sweden, except I couldn't stand all the taxes... angry

So I'll keep my guns...

Edited Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:01 am
Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:57 am
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Ian Andrews Madsen

(Arcadious)

United States
Logan
Utah

HamsterOfFury wrote:

Dave Davies wrote:

Lapppi wrote:

I'm sure as hell glad you never were my history teacher...

While I am certain that I would not be qualified to teach Swiss history and its global impact, (does that extend beyond the SWISS ARMY KNIFE?) I am equally certain that you would benefit from an education.

Believe me, Swiss global impact extends beyond the Swiss Army Knife.
Also believe it or not, size of global impact does not directly equate to how great a country is, and that's coming from a Brit whose country has had the biggest global empire in history.

The British Empire was the most spread out empire, but the Mongolian Empire was the largest by landmass.

Edited Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:25 am
Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:25 am
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Snoo Py

(Joe Cool)

United States
Sunnyvale
California

Ok, guys from the rest of the world.
Here, in the U.S., we have a pretty bad education system, that keeps a lot of people vulnerable to the fear spread by our government. These are these people that admire the mercenaries we sent to the ~~terrorist evil~~ mid-eastern countries. Please, don't be tough with them, it's not their fault.

Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:40 am
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Bernd Winkler

Germany
Göttingen
Niedersachsen

CM Randall wrote:

Once last thing.
I'm proud to be an American!
I'm proud I can own a GUN!
I'm proud I can say what I want in this country!
I'm proud of our fighting men!
I love healthy discussions on politically charged topics!

also... this is a picture that was just meant to be FUN! I think it is brilliant!

Stars and Stripes forever,

Randall

This picture is nearly as funny as the pictures from Abu Ghraib prison, they are brilliant, too!

It´s not possible to be proud just for living in a country, maybe you can be lucky to live there, but not more!

You have to do something to be proud.

Perhaps, build a beautiful table, repair a broken engine or teach children to use their own brain.

Edited Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:53 am
Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:52 am
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Kevin Reynolds

(presence)

United States
Pueblo
Colorado

From a country that has rockets and bombs in its national anthem...

I'm glad that Afghanistan has all that extra oil for us to loot, otherwise I wouldn't be able to afford driving the gas guzzling canyonero to work 100 miles both ways every day. (I couldn't afford an actual canyonero, so I bought the honda civic knockoff).

Thank you very much for risking your life to keep our shores free from those that want to take our liberty from us.

Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:30 pm
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Steve Sallot

(Hawkeye 6)

United States
Lithia
Florida

It is easy to hate the “ugly American” but remember this:

Most other countries people LIVE in a homogenous society; American is not, so we are far more diversified by nature and have a broader perspective (I presume your views and opinions of America were shaped by Hollywood and media (which is a business and in a strange way an extension of the Hollywood)…We handle and tolerate diversity all the time—not just when the going is good. Its easy to caste stones when you do nothing about world problems.

The threat of terrorism is real and international. It has no borders. It has no scruples, and its perpetrators do not a similar morale code that we understand. It is just a matter of time. We (you) can pay now or pay later!

Do you know what a CALIPHATE is?

Who do you think kept the Soviet bear at bay after World War II? The Europeans?

Who rebuilt war torn Europe? Ever hear of the Marshal Plan?

Ever hear of Globalization? International Markets? cheap energy = economic growth = help for developing countries = world economic growth, etc….

The US does not need Middle Eastern Oil, but WORLD does!!! (See above)

Ever read Machiavelli?

Ever hear of Realpolitik?

I neither advocate nor disapprove the currently conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. I just have 2 comments about those: 1) Something had to be done—doing nothing was not an option and the UN is ineffective and 2) When is the rest of the world going to start pulling their weight?

As far as “gun loving” I am not sure that is an accurate portrayal of Americans. Americans love individualism and right to own a gun is universal and protected under the Constitution. However the choice is an “individual” one. I don’t have one and most of my friends do not either.

Lastly, don’t forget America is less than 250 years old, while the European Powers have a history of imperialism and exploitation the spans at least 3 centuries.

Finally, how about just saying thanks and asking what can I do to make the world a better place?

BTW, I lived in Europe; been to Balkans to witness how well homogenous societies interact with other; Been to the Mid-East; Been to the Afghanistan; and love learning about other cultures.

Cheers,

S.

Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:00 pm
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Samuel Elton

(Wolfenstad Manuel)

United States

Virginia

This has got to be the most comments for a single picture!

Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:18 pm
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Patiently waiting for the zombie apocalypse...

United States
Colorado Springs
Colorado

Bernd13 wrote:

CM Randall wrote:

Once last thing.
I'm proud to be an American!
I'm proud I can own a GUN!
I'm proud I can say what I want in this country!
I'm proud of our fighting men!
I love healthy discussions on politically charged topics!

also... this is a picture that was just meant to be FUN! I think it is brilliant!

Stars and Stripes forever,

Randall

This picture is nearly as funny as the pictures from Abu Ghraib prison, they are brilliant, too!

It´s not possible to be proud just for living in a country, maybe you can be lucky to live there, but not more!

You have to do something to be proud.

Perhaps, build a beautiful table, repair a broken engine or teach children to use their own brain.

And that is where you and I will agree to disagree....

and by the way I am a proud teacher as well...

Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:18 pm
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Patiently waiting for the zombie apocalypse...

United States
Colorado Springs
Colorado

Hawkeye 6 wrote:

It is easy to hate the “ugly American” but remember this:

Most other countries people LIVE in a homogenous society; American is not, so we are far more diversified by nature and have a broader perspective (I presume your views and opinions of America were shaped by Hollywood and media (which is a business and in a strange way an extension of the Hollywood)…We handle and tolerate diversity all the time—not just when the going is good. Its easy to caste stones when you do nothing about world problems.

The threat of terrorism is real and international. It has no borders. It has no scruples, and its perpetrators do not a similar morale code that we understand. It is just a matter of time. We (you) can pay now or pay later!

Do you know what a CALIPHATE is?

Who do you think kept the Soviet bear at bay after World War II? The Europeans?

Who rebuilt war torn Europe? Ever hear of the Marshal Plan?

Ever hear of Globalization? International Markets? cheap energy = economic growth = help for developing countries = world economic growth, etc….

The US does not need Middle Eastern Oil, but WORLD does!!! (See above)

Ever read Machiavelli?

Ever hear of Realpolitik?

I neither advocate nor disapprove the currently conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. I just have 2 comments about those: 1) Something had to be done—doing nothing was not an option and the UN is ineffective and 2) When is the rest of the world going to start pulling their weight?

As far as “gun loving” I am not sure that is an accurate portrayal of Americans. Americans love individualism and right to own a gun is universal and protected under the Constitution. However the choice is an “individual” one. I don’t have one and most of my friends do not either.

Lastly, don’t forget America is less than 250 years old, while the European Powers have a history of imperialism and exploitation the spans at least 3 centuries.

Finally, how about just saying thanks and asking what can I do to make the world a better place?

BTW, I lived in Europe; been to Balkans to witness how well homogenous societies interact with other; Been to the Mid-East; Been to the Afghanistan; and love learning about other cultures.

Cheers,

S.

Well said.

thumbsup

Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:21 pm
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Bonaparte

United States
DesMoines
Washington

The number of people in the world that live in peace at the United States expense and then criticize the very guns that maintain that peace is both amazing and disappointing. Any who would say that they don't need that protection should talk to Poland, Ukraine, or Georgia and ask them about American military and appreciation. You don't have to thank us. You don't have to send us a check. But you should.

Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:54 pm
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dallas babe

(dallasbabe1)

United States

OMG!!!! Those people that found the picture offensive had no clue as to how much our soldiers and their families have to endure in order to keep us safe at home and to help YOU (those narrow minded people) to sit home and read your novels and science fictions while watching them fight for world peace. Pull your head out and see what's really involved!!! Then you may have to right to comment!! SHAME!!!!

Keep up with the good work!! Can't wait to see you home!!

Edited Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:28 pm
Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:38 pm
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Bernd Winkler

Germany
Göttingen
Niedersachsen

CM Randall wrote:

Bernd13 wrote:

CM Randall wrote:

Once last thing.
I'm proud to be an American!
I'm proud I can own a GUN!
I'm proud I can say what I want in this country!
I'm proud of our fighting men!
I love healthy discussions on politically charged topics!

also... this is a picture that was just meant to be FUN! I think it is brilliant!

Stars and Stripes forever,

Randall

This picture is nearly as funny as the pictures from Abu Ghraib prison, they are brilliant, too!

It´s not possible to be proud just for living in a country, maybe you can be lucky to live there, but not more!

You have to do something to be proud.

Perhaps, build a beautiful table, repair a broken engine or teach children to use their own brain.

And that is where you and I will agree to disagree....

and by the way I am a proud teacher as well...

Fine, then you are able to teach them to use their own brain and not only to believe in government-TV (CNN).

Sorry, but this sentence: "And that is where you and I will agree to disagree...." is to hard to understand with my poor English. blush

I think you will able to to form another which is easier to catch for me.

Edited Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:41 pm
Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:34 pm
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Kenny Jenkins

Switzerland
Bern

Hawkeye 6 wrote:

Finally, how about just saying thanks and asking what can I do to make the world a better place?

That must be the most arrogant statement in this thread so far (except for some trolling which I won't even consider to seriously take into account.).

I'm convinced that current US policy does NOT make the world a better place!

Very much to the contrary: I mentioned "fear-mongering" before, without any denials or explanations from anyone. I also asked "Army-Pete" why the US HAVE to spend significantly more than half of their discretionary national budget on Defense/Security/War (see http://www.wallstats.com/deathandtaxes/resource/), according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_United_States_federal_budg... this doesn't even include the cost of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan).

Please, someone, indulge me with a serious explanation (beyond OMG TERRORISTS WANNA KILL US ALL OMG PANIC!!!111!!!1!). Thanks.

edited to correct URL

Edited Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:14 am
Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:54 pm
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andrew

(antiussentiment)

Australia
bayswater
western australia

it really bothers me so many US folk thing thier millitary over seas is making the world a better place. but i'm not sure how to explain to them that it's not.

but think about this, every where in the world terrorists see them selves as FREEDOM FIGHTERS.. and target those who they see as oppressors. this is certainly the case in the middle east. there a loads of terrorists out there who are not the slightest bit interested in attacking the US, because they do not see the US as THEIR OPRESSORS. do a google and be amazed.

but that asside. the pic is funny for the caption. my sentiments exactly pete.

Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:17 am
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(WalterLai)

"Thank you for protecting out freedom" by killing people over there? Nazi used something similar to justify senseless butchery.

Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:24 am
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Bonaparte

United States
DesMoines
Washington

antiussentiment wrote:

it really bothers me so many US folk thing thier millitary over seas is making the world a better place. but i'm not sure how to explain to them that it's not.

I would not contend that everything the United States does is right. But it is disappointing how many Europeans take the stance that the American military overseas does not make the world a better place. East Germans wished for 45 years that the American military had been more overseas. Poland dreamed of having a U. S. military presence for the same period of time. Certainly South Korea was grateful that we had the audacity to travel off our own continent. Was Afghanistan better off before we were there? Certainly the Taliban thought so.

Feel free to take what we do for granted. Even think of yourselves as progressives and new world intellectuals. We will keep doing our job without your thanks, but we wont ask your permission either.

Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:32 am
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Kenny Jenkins

Switzerland
Bern

Dave Davies wrote:

Feel free to take what we do for granted. Even think of yourselves as progressives and new world intellectuals. We will keep doing our job without your thanks, but we wont ask your permission either.

You're missing an important point: It's not your Job. You are doing what is the UN's responsibility. US leadership is elected by US citizens and has jurisdiction over the US, not the entire world. You are welcome to assist the UN within a set legal framework. A recent example of this would be ex-Yugoslawia. You don't hear anyone complaining about this, because there was a democratic, legal decision to take military action.

The admittedly evil regimes of Saddam Hussein in Iraq and the Taliban in Afghanistan were both, for the most part, the catastrophic consequence of earlier US intervention (grossly simplified: either of a financial nature to ensure cheap oil from Iraq or in training and financing Osama bin Laden and other Mujahedin to fight against the Sowjets in Afghanistan). In a sense this justifies that you feel responsible, and it is laudable that you are trying to clean up the whole mess.

However, your unquestionable conviction to know what's best for the rest of the world and your willingness to impose these ideals/beliefs with force an anyone who disagrees, is, frankly, rather frightening. Add to this the political influence of religious hard-liners and the strong tendencies to free your military and security agencies from any legal and constitutional restrictions (UN and US) in the name of "war against terrorism", and you end up with an America that looks like something I don't want to do anything without asking for permission.

Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:41 am
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Bonaparte

United States
DesMoines
Washington

Lapppi wrote:

You are doing what is the UN's responsibility.

LOL

Okay, now that I have the laugh out of my system, do you really believe in the capability of the UN? An organization that gives flat veto powers to specific nations? Iraq is a perfect example of the incompetance of the UN. The mess in Iraq could easily have been prevented if the UN had any sort of viable authority and integrity. The corruption in the UN driven by nationalism and greed (See France and its bleeding of the oil for food program) will forever keep that organization impotent. It is an embarrassment to the global community. Let's keep the UN to its humanitarian issues and let the real work be done by those who are able.

Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:20 am
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Kenny Jenkins

Switzerland
Bern

Dave Davies wrote:

[..] do you really believe in the capability of the UN? [..]

No I don't, but the choice between an overly bureaucratic, though idealistic and democratic international organization on one hand; and a bunch of megalomaniac, ignorant, corrupt, selfish, stupid, bigot bastards (Talking about your government, NOT Americans in general) on the other, isn't exactly difficult...

The following graph clearly illustrates who is currently most active in undermining the UN's authority:

Edited Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:17 am
Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:15 am
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Kenny Jenkins

Switzerland
Bern

Dave Davies wrote:

Let's keep the UN to its humanitarian issues and let the real work be done by those who are able.

I think it's quite telling that you don't consider humanitarian issues relevant.. You obviously are a moron.

Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:26 am
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R. Lamb

(iamspoo)

United States
Des Moines
Iowa

Lapppi wrote:

and a bunch of megalomaniac, ignorant, corrupt, selfish, stupid, bigot bastards (Talking about your government, NOT Americans in general) on the other, isn't exactly difficult...

Now you have crossed the line. "That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people."

I'm not going to type up a long post with 10 bullet points explaining to you why calling the American government names is the same as calling every American the same names. Instead I just want to make sure that you know that your blanket statement doesn't cover your ass one bit.

Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:30 am
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Kenny Jenkins

Switzerland
Bern

iamspoo wrote:

Lapppi wrote:

and a bunch of megalomaniac, ignorant, corrupt, selfish, stupid, bigot bastards (Talking about your government, NOT Americans in general) on the other, isn't exactly difficult...

Now you have crossed the line. "That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people."

I'm not going to type up a long post with 10 bullet points explaining to you why calling the American government names is the same as calling every American the same names. Instead I just want to make sure that you know that your blanket statement doesn't cover your ass one bit.

Ahhh..

I give up. If you seriously want to be personally insulted by that, I can't help it. But please do yourself the favour of reading up on how little your current administration honours your constitution.

Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:46 am
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Bernd Winkler

Germany
Göttingen
Niedersachsen

@Lapppi:

Hallo Lapppi,

gut gemacht, jeder nur etwas vernunftbegabte, nicht national verblendete Mensch kann dir zustimmen.

Mir fällt nur noch Arthur Schopenhauer ein:

Die wohlfeilste Art des Stolzes hingegen ist der Nationalstolz.

Denn er verrät in dem damit Behafteten den Mangel an individuellen Eigenschaften, auf die er stolz sein könnte, indem er sonst nicht zu dem greifen würde, was er mit so vielen Millionen teilt.

Wer bedeutende persönliche Vorzüge besitzt, wird vielmehr die Fehler seiner eigenen Nation, da er sie beständig vor Augen hat, am deutlichsten erkennen.

Aber jeder erbärmliche Tropf, der nichts in der Welt hat, darauf er stolz sein könnte, ergreift das letzte Mittel, auf die Nation, der er gerade angehört, stolz zu sein.

Hieran erholt er sich und ist nun dankbarlich bereit, alle Fehler und Torheiten, die ihr eigen sind, mit Händen und Füßen zu verteidigen.

Edited Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:22 pm
Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:19 pm
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Steve Sallot

(Hawkeye 6)

United States
Lithia
Florida

Lapppi wrote:

But please do yourself the favour of reading up on how little your current administration honours your constitution.

Our current administration is far from what I would call ideal, however, it is far more compliant with the Constitution than previous left, liberal, progressive regimes (Woodrow Wilson and FDR) were. Did you know that Wilson administration imprisoned news reporters that made negative remarks about the regime? FDR imprisoned labor leaders, etc... I don't see a whole lot that going on right now. BTW, Both Wilson and FDR had extensive powers to detain and wire-tap US Citizens without probable cause--I think our current Administration still has a long way to go to get to that point.

I agree with you in that I do not think the American Way is the World Way.

The current American solution is the not the best solution nor is it the only one, but I have yet to see any other nation step up.

Again, I ask what is your country doing to make the world better and more prosperous and solving existing problems?

Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:32 pm
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Bernd Winkler

Germany
Göttingen
Niedersachsen

Hawkeye 6 wrote:

Again, I ask what is your country doing to make the world better and more prosperous and solving existing problems?

Killing people for cheap oil has nothing to do with making the world a better place.

Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:43 pm
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Steve Sallot

(Hawkeye 6)

United States
Lithia
Florida

Bernd13 wrote:

Hawkeye 6 wrote:

Again, I ask what is your country doing to make the world better and more prosperous and solving existing problems?

Killing people for cheap oil has nothing to do with making the world a better place.

Again, only criticism, but no better solutions. Besides I don't think killing people for cheap oil is the agenda. Lastly, mankind has been fighting and killing each other since the beginning of time for resources--how to solve that problem?

BTW, I found the picture unprofessional and in poor taste as well, but folks could not stop there

This is pretty heavy stuff for a forum for a bunch geeks and nerds!!!

Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:48 pm
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R. Lamb

(iamspoo)

United States
Des Moines
Iowa

Lapppi wrote:

iamspoo wrote:

Lapppi wrote:

and a bunch of megalomaniac, ignorant, corrupt, selfish, stupid, bigot bastards (Talking about your government, NOT Americans in general) on the other, isn't exactly difficult...

Now you have crossed the line. "That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people."

I'm not going to type up a long post with 10 bullet points explaining to you why calling the American government names is the same as calling every American the same names. Instead I just want to make sure that you know that your blanket statement doesn't cover your ass one bit.

Ahhh..

I give up. If you seriously want to be personally insulted by that, I can't help it. But please do yourself the favour of reading up on how little your current administration honours your constitution.

What does the the USA constitution have to do with anything? STOP trolling!

Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:35 pm
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Sam Healey

United States
Homestead
Florida

Bernd13 wrote:

Killing people for cheap oil has nothing to do with making the world a better place.

Would you kindly direct me to this oasis of cheap oil that apparently exists somewhere in the world, according to you? It isn't in the US. It isn't anywhere in Europe, from what I've heard. And it most definitely isn't here in South Korea where I reside. Maybe the people over at OPEC know? I mean, they're talking about lowering oil production...AGAIN...maybe they know where this oasis exists. Why else would they want to raise the prices again? Maybe they just can't quite afford that 3rd or 4th Jaguar they've always wanted...

Posted Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:53 am
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Kenny Jenkins

Switzerland
Bern

iamspoo wrote:

What does the the USA constitution have to do with anything? !

Outside of the US? Nothing.

Posted Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:51 am
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Kenny Jenkins

Switzerland
Bern

Bernd13 wrote:

@Lapppi:
Die wohlfeilste Art des Stolzes hingegen ist der Nationalstolz.

Denn er verrät in dem damit Behafteten den Mangel an individuellen Eigenschaften, auf die er stolz sein könnte, indem er sonst nicht zu dem greifen würde, was er mit so vielen Millionen teilt.

Wer bedeutende persönliche Vorzüge besitzt, wird vielmehr die Fehler seiner eigenen Nation, da er sie beständig vor Augen hat, am deutlichsten erkennen.

Aber jeder erbärmliche Tropf, der nichts in der Welt hat, darauf er stolz sein könnte, ergreift das letzte Mittel, auf die Nation, der er gerade angehört, stolz zu sein.

Hieran erholt er sich und ist nun dankbarlich bereit, alle Fehler und Torheiten, die ihr eigen sind, mit Händen und Füßen zu verteidigen.

For the benefit of the English speaking crowd:

The cheapest form of pride however is national pride. For it betrays in the one thus afflicted the lack of individual qualities of which he could be proud, while he would not otherwise reach for what he shares with so many millions. He who possesses significant personal merits will rather recognise the defects of his own nation, as he has them constantly before his eyes, most clearly. But that poor beggar who has nothing in the world of which he can be proud, latches onto the last means of being proud, the nation to which he belongs to. Thus he recovers and is now in gratitude ready to defend with hands and feet all errors and follies which are its own.
-- Arthur Schopenhauer, Aphorismen zur Lebensweisheit, Kapitel II,

Posted Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:29 am
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Richard Turner

United Kingdom
Leighton Buzzard
Bedfordshire

Given the major powers in the World at say 1930 of USA, Germany, Japan and the Soviet Union, we have to be thankful that it was the USA that came out on top.

On the other hand defence of freedom has to be a very carefully used argument to justify war. As a genuine question, how do the US posters above feel about Vietnam now? To me, excuse my simplicity, Iraq feels a lot like Vietnam, in the end just a pointless waste of life to take action that did not need to be taken.

Posted Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:00 pm
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Sam Healey

United States
Homestead
Florida

RCTurner wrote:

To me, excuse my simplicity, Iraq feels a lot like Vietnam, in the end just a pointless waste of life to take action that did not need to be taken.

I wonder how many of the large groups of people who were suffering severe oppression and persecution (which is to include, but probably not limited to murder, rape, torture, and martyrdom) by the Taliban and Hussein's regime think that either situation (Afghanistan or Iraq) is a "pointless waste of life to take action that did not need to be taken". Do you honestly think those who were being put through the ringer were not hoping that something would be done by someone...ANYONE?

Too often I think people strain at a gnat in order to uphold a lofty ideal of how they think these situations will just work themselves out all on their own, thereby deeming the status quo as permissable. When in reality, they don't work themselves out on their own. Real people with real lives have to make real decisions. I wonder who knows how many countless thousands of people lost their lives under the Taliban's control or under Hussein's regime in the name of ethnic cleansing, or just flat-out murder. Not to lessen the loss of life in either action, but I would imagine that the number of lives lost in the current actions are a fraction of those lost before a change was made. And those people who were in harm's way before are comparatively safe now. Sure, there are everyday dangers in both Afghanistan and Iraq that probably far surpass anything any of us posters face on a daily basis. But for those people who were being oppressed and persecuted, what they have now is a relative peace much safer than some of them may have experienced in their entire lives. Why? Because a group of nations got off their rear-ends, and decided that enough was enough. We can play arm-chair quarterback all we want, but the fact of the matter is that many people in many different places experience a better life (maybe not the best) than they previously knew, because someone somewhere was willing to do something rather than sitting back, stuffing another handful of popcorn in their mouth, and watch them continue to suffer and be persecuted.

The sad thing is, most of us, unless we go hunting and searching for it on our computers, won't see the reports from those who were oppressed and persecuted...how they are so very appreciative of what the Coalition Forces have accomplished. And the only reason we won't is because theirs are not the stories that the world's news agencies want you to see or hear. They want you to keep thinking that oil was the reason, and that the US is building an empire, and on, and on. And what's even worse, for all our collective intelligences and thoughts on how advanced we are, we're still dumb enough to believe what's flashed on a screen, or printed on a piece a paper without any second thoughts.

Shame on us.

Thank You, Coalition Forces!

Edited Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:31 am
Posted Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:07 am
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Richard Turner

United Kingdom
Leighton Buzzard
Bedfordshire

Sam, thanks for your thoughtful response. I distinguish between Iraq and Afghanistan, as I think the latter was totally justified.

In relation to Iraq, do you know how many people have died since the US/UK invasion? Saddam was in power for many years as a friend of the west, against Iran principally. We had overlooked many of his horrific crimes in the past. While we might have wished his regime to be replaced by a nice modern government, there aren't too many of those in the middle east.

Why not Syria, why not Zimbabwe, why not North Korea? They all need regime change.

Call me cynical, and even cowardly, but actually Iraq was contained prior to the 2nd gulf war, and did not need to be invaded. The sad truth is that many many more people have died as a result of the US/UK invasion than killed since the 1st gulf war by Saddam. Like Vietnam, the region has been destabilised, and the enemies have multiplied.

Posted Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:38 am
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Richard Turner

United Kingdom
Leighton Buzzard
Bedfordshire

And Sam, I assume that you support an invasion of the Sudan? You are at the moment writing to your representatives encouraging an invasion and regime change in Sudan? Far worse than Iraq under Saddam.

You are justifying the action after it has happened, through patriotism. How much sleep do you lose over Sudan? None I bet.

Posted Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:43 am
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Sam Healey

United States
Homestead
Florida

RCTurner wrote:

Sam, thanks for your thoughtful response. I distinguish between Iraq and Afghanistan, as I think the latter was totally justified.

In relation to Iraq, do you know how many people have died since the US/UK invasion? Saddam was in power for many years as a friend of the west, against Iran principally. We had overlooked many of his horrific crimes in the past. While we might have wished his regime to be replaced by a nice modern government, there aren't too many of those in the middle east.

Why not Syria, why not Zimbabwe, why not North Korea? They all need regime change.

Call me cynical, and even cowardly, but actually Iraq was contained prior to the 2nd gulf war, and did not need to be invaded. The sad truth is that many many more people have died as a result of the US/UK invasion than killed since the 1st gulf war by Saddam. Like Vietnam, the region has been destabilised, and the enemies have multiplied.

Saying that a place like Hussein's Iraq was contained before the 2nd Gulf War is akin to locking a couple of rabid, blood-thirsty dogs (not that Iraqi people are dogs...it's just an analogy) in a cage to let them have at each other. It's contained, and they wouldn't be bothering anyone else...but that doesn't make it any less unethical. Hussein may have been a "friend" of the west, but he was no friend at all to many of his own people.

As far as Syria and Zimbabwe, I don't know enough about the situations there to comment, but if similiar atrocities are being committed in those places, then yes, something should be done. The US (or the UK, for that matter) shouldn't have to do it, though. It's really the UN's job...but the UN has far outlived it's worth and effectiveness. So, who's gonna pick up the slack...unfortunately, I don't think the the US is going to have a leader willing to roll-up his sleeves for quite a while if the polls are anywhere close to accurate, but miracles can happen.

Now for North Korea...I fully and completely support a regime change in the DPRK. And I say that while living less than a two-hour drive from the DMZ. I have seen and heard first-hand accounts of what goes on up there that would literally make your blood boil every time you look at their leader's image on TV. And now, they're doing even more sabre-rattling.

Maybe I'm too old-fashioned, too chivalrous, or just plain naive, but if there's injustice in the world, it should be dealt with no matter where it rears it's ugly head.

Posted Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:16 pm
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Richard Turner

United Kingdom
Leighton Buzzard
Bedfordshire

My point is that ones reaction to injustice has to be proportionate and effective. Sadly the gulf war 2 is neither of those things.

We have to face the unpleasant truth that actually it is very difficult to correct injustices in other countries.

Posted Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:20 pm
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Sam Healey

United States
Homestead
Florida

RCTurner wrote:

My point is that ones reaction to injustice has to be proportionate and effective. Sadly the gulf war 2 is neither of those things.

Point taken, and I can actually agree with you. However, the ineffectiveness of the war wasn't the military's fault (and that, to me, includes the Commander-in-Chief).

RCTurner wrote:

We have to face the unpleasant truth that actually it is very difficult to correct injustices in other countries.

So, just because something is difficult, we shouldn't try? If that's what you're saying (and I truly hope it isn't), I cannot agree with you at all. Not choosing to try and stop tyranny is the same as choosing to support tyranny. By choosing to do nothing, one, in effect, chooses to perpetuate wrong-doing. Listen, I am not a proponent of war as a first option. It should be the absolute last option. It's the fall-back plan for the fall-back plan of the fall-back plan...you know what I mean? The decision to go to war is one that should weigh very heavily upon the persons' shoulders who are responsible for making that decision. But after diplomacy (which includes many different avenues for conflict resolution) has failed, what's next? More diplomacy? I think not.

Posted Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:44 am
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Richard Turner

United Kingdom
Leighton Buzzard
Bedfordshire

No, I am not saying that. As I said above, I supported the invasion of Afghanistan, and had spoken in favour of it even before 9/11.

However Gulf War 2 is a collosal folly. A foreign policy disaster. And I certtainly agree with you that it is not the militarys fault.

Posted Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:09 pm
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Sam Healey