Dominion: Prosperity | Image

Ron Laufer

(gonzoron)

United States
Millington
New Jersey

Cool card, but I foresee this causing me great sadness.

Me: "OK... no provinces"
RHO: "No problem, I only had enough for a gold."

Me: "OK.. no gold this time"
RHO: "No problem, I'll take a province."

Unless there's a rule I'm missing that says all treasure cards are played simultaneously....

Posted Sun Aug 1, 2010 6:16 pm
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Drew Spencer

(banyan)

United States
Tucson
Arizona

Well you can't expect to deny them exactly what they want each time. Except very early in the game, I think I would say Province every time (assuming other Prosperity cards don't change that dynamic... which they undoubtedly will).

Posted Sun Aug 1, 2010 7:11 pm
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Ron Laufer

(gonzoron)

United States
Millington
New Jersey

No, but there has to be some downside to the card, otherwise, it's just a cheap gold with a bonus buy. There has to be a decent chance that it won't get you what you want, otherwise it obsoletes gold, and gold is already one of the best cards in the game.

Edited Sun Aug 1, 2010 7:19 pm
Posted Sun Aug 1, 2010 7:19 pm
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Jake Di Toro

(karrde)

United States
Virginia Beach
Virginia

Quote:

Unless there's a rule I'm missing that says all treasure cards are played simultaneously....

According to Jay there will be a clarification:

http://boardgame.geekdo.com/article/5342707#5342707

Edited Sun Aug 1, 2010 7:52 pm
Posted Sun Aug 1, 2010 7:52 pm
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Caio Almendra

(Calmen)

Brazil

I guess my main question would be: can I NOT play a treasure card in my hand at my buy phase?

Posted Sun Aug 1, 2010 8:02 pm
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József Nagypál

(gf1024)

Hungary

Calmen wrote:

I guess my main question would be: can I NOT play a treasure card in my hand at my buy phase?

Yes, you may choose not to.

Posted Sun Aug 1, 2010 8:04 pm
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Scott Heise

(HomerJr)

United States
Los Gatos
California

Calmen wrote:

I guess my main question would be: can I NOT play a treasure card in my hand at my buy phase?

Yes, you can choose not to play a treasure.

Posted Sun Aug 1, 2010 8:38 pm
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Deep Thought

(DT76)

United States
Columbus
Ohio

"That's... not gone well.."

With this version of the game, it is no longer always possible to just drop all your treasure on the table and buy something. Like the philosopher's stone in Alchemy, there are these special ones, so it may be important to play them one at a time, keeping unused ones in your hand.

And yes, there is a fair amount of tension between choosing province/gold/other card when you don't know how much money they really have.

Posted Sun Aug 1, 2010 10:02 pm
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ronaldinho @boardspace.net

(drunkenKOALA)

Taiwan

gonzoron wrote:

Cool card, but I foresee this causing me great sadness.

Me: "OK... no provinces"
RHO: "No problem, I only had enough for a gold."

Me: "OK.. no gold this time"
RHO: "No problem, I'll take a province."

Unless there's a rule I'm missing that says all treasure cards are played simultaneously....

That's the whole point, and what makes this card great for me.

Posted Mon Aug 2, 2010 8:59 am
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Marc Plourde

(theplourde)

United States

Massachusetts

This looks almost unilaterally better than gold.

Cheaper? Check.
Additional Effect? Check.
Drawback? Possibly, only if the player denies you the card you intended to buy.

All in all this looks like it shouldn't have the +buy or should still be 6 coin to buy.

Edited Mon Aug 2, 2010 1:56 pm
Posted Mon Aug 2, 2010 1:48 pm
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Ron Laufer

(gonzoron)

United States
Millington
New Jersey

drunkenKOALA wrote:

That's the whole point, and what makes this card great for me.

We'll just be guessing until the rules are made public, but I'm hoping that's not the whole point. There are two possible aspects to this little "guessing game".

- guessing how many coins the contraband player has available
- guessing what the contraband player wants to buy

If you are forced to play all treasures at the same time, the first goes away. If you are allowed to "slow roll" your treasures, your LHO has to guess both.

IMHO, if you have to guess both, the card is too good. The drawback only matters in the endgame, when your opponent will always say "Province". If you have to guess only the second, I think the card becomes more reasonable and fun, and a very cool card.

But we don't know the full rules, and I haven't played with the card, so who knows?

Posted Mon Aug 2, 2010 3:47 pm
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Jonathan Brumitt

(houdinimachine)

United States
Bloomington
Indiana

I wonder if the left player can block two items if you play 2 contraband.

Posted Mon Aug 2, 2010 10:34 pm
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Jason Garner

(mistergarner1)

United States
Lawrenceville
Georgia

a bonus buy can be and is highly significant

Posted Mon Aug 2, 2010 11:37 pm
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Chris Hawks

(Salt-Man Z)

United States
Apple Valley
Minnesota

houdinimachine wrote:

I wonder if the left player can block two items if you play 2 contraband.

I don't see why not. You resolve the two cards independently.

Posted Tue Aug 3, 2010 12:28 am
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(allstar64)

United States

New York

I like this card. The real question is how do you have to reveal money. If you have to reveal it all at once then other players can see and choose.

I also like how this card isn't super useful in bulk especially if you are forced to reveal money before buys. You show 3 of them, there goes province gold and most likely a good 5 cost card.

Posted Tue Aug 3, 2010 4:18 am
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Henry Allen

(KlydeFrog)

United States

Florida

theplourde wrote:

This looks almost unilaterally better than gold.

Cheaper? Check.
Additional Effect? Check.
Drawback? Possibly, only if the player denies you the card you intended to buy.

All in all this looks like it shouldn't have the +buy or should still be 6 coin to buy.

If you play three of these then you are probably not going to be able to buy province, gold, or the best kingdom card available this turn. That's a pretty big deal so I'd say this has also going against it that drawing multiples can be a problem ... not something you worry about with gold.

Posted Tue Aug 3, 2010 1:15 pm
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Ryan M

(Mools)

Canada

Saskatchewan

gonzoron wrote:

Cool card, but I foresee this causing me great sadness.

Me: "OK... no provinces"
RHO: "No problem, I only had enough for a gold."

Me: "OK.. no gold this time"
RHO: "No problem, I'll take a province."

Unless there's a rule I'm missing that says all treasure cards are played simultaneously....

It seems to me that having a card that is worth a gold, provides +1 buy, but is cheaper than actually buying gold...the cheaper price has to reflect the lesser power of the card than buying a standard gold.

So what would make a gold with a +1 buy less powerful than an actual gold? I have to guess that you still lay all your treasure down at once. If you only lay this card down by itself, then it is still too powerful for the price because the player to the left can't tell for sure what your buying power is. Without some sense of your actual buying power, then they are just taking wild guesses as to what you can'will buy.

That would be my guess. The card is only less powerful than a gold if the player to the left has an actual ability to prevent you from buying the best possible card.

Posted Tue Aug 3, 2010 3:29 pm
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Kelly K

(kkoechel)

no province? OK, I'll buy two duchies.

sweet card.

Posted Tue Aug 3, 2010 7:20 pm
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Andrew Brown

(GodfatherPTS)

United States
Lawrenceville
New Jersey

I think many are underestimating how much of a drawback this card has. Not being able to buy a Province IS A BIG DEAL. Buying VPs is the whole point of this game. If this is 'unilaterally better' and you always take this over a Gold, how will you score enough points to win?

2 Duchys? Okay. But that dilutes your deck and only works if you have 10 rather than 8 treasure.

I like this card. Would love to try it out. Great in the early game when you want the treasure but don't have 6 (or really want the +buy). Can really hurt late in the game. You will have hands where you wish this is a Gold or even just a Silver so that you could get a Province that will be denied.

Posted Tue Aug 3, 2010 9:56 pm
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Cameron McKenzie

(MasterDinadan)

United States
Atlanta
Georgia

One or two may be valuable to help stimulate deck development early on, but it is not something you can rely on heavily.
Of course, it's effectiveness depends on whether treasure cards are played simultaneously or one at a time, and we don't know which it is yet.

Posted Tue Aug 3, 2010 10:58 pm
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Henry Allen

(KlydeFrog)

United States

Florida

Mools wrote:

gonzoron wrote:

...

Unless there's a rule I'm missing that says all treasure cards are played simultaneously....

... If you only lay this card down by itself, then it is still too powerful for the price because the player to the left can't tell for sure what your buying power is. Without some sense of your actual buying power, then they are just taking wild guesses as to what you can'will buy.

That would be my guess. The card is only less powerful than a gold if the player to the left has an actual ability to prevent you from buying the best possible card.

I disagree. I think it is significantly less powerful than gold either way. Let's assume that, as a policy, your left neighbor will always choose to deny province buys (a reasonable default policy I think). If you never buy gold and buy this instead then you are going to have a very hard time winning. This is an extreme case but, even if you only have one of these, each time through your deck you have the possibility of failing to get a province on a turn you where you have the money (and even one missed province is a big deal).

Edited Wed Aug 4, 2010 6:23 am
Posted Wed Aug 4, 2010 5:34 am
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Kenny VenOsdel

(kvenosdel)

United States
Saint Paul
Minnesota

theplourde wrote:

All in all this looks like it shouldn't have the +buy or should still be 6 coin to buy.

The plus buy seems to be what makes the draw back still okay. If you deny them a province they can make up for it (potentially) by purchasing more than one card. Not always a bonus but could be.

Think about a game with Dukes involved. If you play one of these plus other cards to get at least 10$ and they deny you a province you can grab two Duchies and Dukes. Dukes can get to the value of Provinces pretty quickly in a game like that.

Edited Wed Aug 4, 2010 10:56 am
Posted Wed Aug 4, 2010 10:55 am
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Ingólfur Valsson

(KronikAlkoholik)

Iceland

Now with specific rules about putting out treasure what happens when you play a Black Market and put out a Contraband, should they deny you one of the Black Market stash buys or a kingdom card. Also this gives you the chance to add more treasure later on through kingdom cards and so on. Guess we will find out.

I would like this card with a Duke & Duchy deck. If they deny you the duke you take the duchy and the other way around. You would only need a silver in addition to the Contraband. Also with a money heavy hand you might even get 2.

Posted Wed Aug 4, 2010 12:45 pm
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Deep Thought

(DT76)

United States
Columbus
Ohio

"That's... not gone well.."

Black Market is one of the strangest cards, since it requires you to lay out treasures in the action phase, rather than the buy phase. I've not played the 2 together, but until the official rules come out, I would guess that:

Since black market says to reveal the 3 options first, you would have that information available. Treasure would still be played 1 at a time (this part I'm certain of), and you would want to play the Contraband first (if at all) to keep your opponents guessing. Since Contraband doesn't specify in-game kingdom cards, I assume that you could name anything, including one of the revealed black market cards. So, you would decide whether you wanted one of the 3 black market cards (2 available if your opponent picked one), then continue with your action phase. During your buy phase, you would reveal more treasure if you had it (1 at a time if necessary), and make your buys, still subject to the restriction of whatever your opponent chose for the contraband.

If you had, say, a contraband, black market, and silver in hand, you might play the black market first. If chapel, woodcutter, mining village came up, you might use the temp coins to purchase the chapel (or play the silver to buy either of the other 2). If you bought the chapel, during your buy phase, you would then play the contraband, your opponent would restrict a purchase (ex. Lab, or Village if he thought you were out of money), then you would play the silver and buy whatever unrestricted card you wanted.

Edited Wed Aug 4, 2010 2:37 pm
Posted Wed Aug 4, 2010 2:36 pm
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Jason Martin

(Anjohl)

Canada
Torbay
Newfoundland

I am pretty sure all treasures are played simultaneously.

Posted Wed Aug 4, 2010 5:49 pm
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Jason Martin

(Anjohl)

Canada
Torbay
Newfoundland

mistergarner1 wrote:

a bonus buy can be and is highly significant

Especially with Alchemy.

Posted Wed Aug 4, 2010 5:59 pm
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Mik Svellov

(Great Dane)

Denmark
Copenhagen N
EU

You: Okay, no Provinces.
Me: Fine - I was aiming for a Colony anyway!

Posted Thu Aug 5, 2010 8:05 am
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Jason Martin

(Anjohl)

Canada
Torbay
Newfoundland

If they rule that you can play treasures one at a time, Dominion is fired for me.

Posted Thu Aug 5, 2010 12:07 pm
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Marc Plourde

(theplourde)

United States

Massachusetts

Anjohl wrote:

If they rule that you can play treasures one at a time, Dominion is fired for me.

I'll just house rule that all treasure is played simultaneously myself, though even then I may consider this card a little overpowered.

Posted Thu Aug 5, 2010 7:18 pm
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Jason Martin

(Anjohl)

Canada
Torbay
Newfoundland

theplourde wrote:

Anjohl wrote:

If they rule that you can play treasures one at a time, Dominion is fired for me.

I'll just house rule that all treasure is played simultaneously myself, though even then I may consider this card a little overpowered.

I think it's reasonable since it becomes a deck clogger in the end game. It will significantly reduce the value of +1 buy cards.

Posted Thu Aug 5, 2010 7:27 pm
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Ron Laufer

(gonzoron)

United States
Millington
New Jersey

theplourde wrote:

Anjohl wrote:

If they rule that you can play treasures one at a time, Dominion is fired for me.

I'll just house rule that all treasure is played simultaneously myself, though even then I may consider this card a little overpowered.

Well, the answer's been given: One at a time. I'm concerned, but I think instant house ruling and/or quitting the game seem like over-reactions. Donald X. and his developers haven't steered us too far wrong yet. I know they do extensive playtesting, so it's unlikely that this will break the game.

It certainly seems like Contraband is too good now, but I haven't seen it in play, so who knows?

Posted Thu Aug 5, 2010 8:04 pm
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Drew Spencer

(banyan)

United States
Tucson
Arizona

theplourde wrote:

Anjohl wrote:

If they rule that you can play treasures one at a time, Dominion is fired for me.

I'll just house rule that all treasure is played simultaneously myself, though even then I may consider this card a little overpowered.

It amazes me that people can make such statements before even trying the card out. Sure, the development team playtested the card extensively, but somehow you know its overpowered just by thinking about it?

By the way, from the other threads, it looks like treasure cards are played one at at a time.

Posted Thu Aug 5, 2010 8:05 pm
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Jeff Chamberlain

(Klintus Fang)

United States
Tracy
California

I don't see how this is overpowered. It looks like a dangerous card to use heavily to me. In the late game when everyone is buying provinces it will be no better than an estate in your hand unless you are using an unconventional strategy. In the end game, you won't be able to play it because the instant you do so, your neighbor will pick the best victory card available and tell you that you cannot buy it. So you won't be able to use it in the end-game. Play two of them, and your neighbor will pick the second best victory card available (or the gold) and tell you that you cannot buy that either.

Buy too many of these because they are cheap, and you'll likely be screwed in the end game it seems to me unless your strategy is to win without buying many of the more expensive cards.

Posted Thu Aug 5, 2010 9:00 pm
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Aron F.

(uigrad)

United States
Champaign
Illinois

banyan wrote:

It amazes me that people can make such statements before even trying the card out. Sure, the development team playtested the card extensively, but somehow you know its overpowered just by thinking about it?

I don't know.... I frequently have made rash judgments on cards before trying them, and then discovered that they did play out pretty much like I expected. I agree with those who say that this card is not completely balanced when compared to gold, but I'm not freaking out about it.

When I first saw gardens (long, long ago), I thought it may be too powerful. It seemed like in 80% of games, it would be worth at least as much as a duchy, and if gardens were ever in the set, duchies would be obsolete (until gardens ran out). My guess is that total scores would be higher in garden games than in non-garden games. It turns out I was right. This doesn't mean that garden is a bad card, though. In the end, it just provides variety in the types of games.

So, we can probably agree that this not balanced well with gold. Not only is it roughly as good as gold or slightly better, it also costs less. This doesn't mean it's a bad card. It will change the game, and it may be the first stack to run out, but it's the kind of variety that makes Dominion what it is. Certainly it should not be available in every game, but it's a very solid kingdom card.

Posted Thu Aug 5, 2010 9:55 pm
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Jason Waeber

(jerubbaal)

United States
Batavia
Ohio

IMHO, excellently designed card. It's a very nice "worse" gold in a lot of setups, and will be great early when your strategy is adaptable, but, as has been mentioned, the drawback is really huge in the late game.

I also like the fact that this card is going to be worse against good opponents and better against bad ones. Skill-rewarding cards are good, although this does threaten to have varying value depending on who is sitting to your left.

Edited Thu Aug 5, 2010 10:13 pm
Posted Thu Aug 5, 2010 10:11 pm
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Jason Martin

(Anjohl)

Canada
Torbay
Newfoundland

gonzoron wrote:

theplourde wrote:

Anjohl wrote:

If they rule that you can play treasures one at a time, Dominion is fired for me.

I'll just house rule that all treasure is played simultaneously myself, though even then I may consider this card a little overpowered.

Well, the answer's been given: One at a time. I'm concerned, but I think instant house ruling and/or quitting the game seem like over-reactions. Donald X. and his developers haven't steered us too far wrong yet. I know they do extensive playtesting, so it's unlikely that this will break the game.

It certainly seems like Contraband is too good now, but I haven't seen it in play, so who knows?

Yeah, Dominion's fired...let the power creep begin!

Prediction: 3 cost card, +1 Card, +2 Coin, Trash up to 4 cards in your hand, opponent to left may gain one of them.

Also, I daresay "permenants" are going to be in the next post-prosperity expansion. Dominion has officially jumped the shark. This is the first de facto erratta in Dominion history, now's a great time to call it quits.

Of course, anyone with blanks can playtest Contraband, and feel free to contrdict me.

Posted Sat Aug 7, 2010 12:03 am
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Cameron McKenzie

(MasterDinadan)

United States
Atlanta
Georgia

Adding new mechanics or making small adjustments to existing mechanics in an official expansion doesn't really qualify as errata.

Posted Sat Aug 7, 2010 12:58 am
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Matthew Mesina

(soberman)

United States
Bethel Park
Pennsylvania

If you had to play all your Action Cards simultaneously, people would have said from the start; "why?". These Treasure Cards are nothing like the old ones, you have to decide upon the order to play them in and resolve each one before moving on to the next, just like Action Cards. What, then, would possibly be wrong with Dominion? How has it "jumped the shark" when Treasure Cards with special attributes are treated like Action Cards with special attributes. How could you play a series of cards with special attributes all at once- that would entail having to resolve each card all at once, and would not make sense, nor be consistant with how Dominion has been played until this point.

Posted Sat Aug 7, 2010 6:03 am
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Jason Martin

(Anjohl)

Canada
Torbay
Newfoundland

MasterDinadan wrote:

Adding new mechanics or making small adjustments to existing mechanics in an official expansion doesn't really qualify as errata.

Originally, you played treasure cards one way, now you play them a different way. That sounds like errata to me.

Posted Sat Aug 7, 2010 9:29 pm
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Destry Miller

(destry)

United States

California

Where in the rules does it say you play treasures differently in earlier sets than this set? I can say with confidence the rules for treasures have never changed.

Posted Sun Aug 8, 2010 12:17 am
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Jason Martin

(Anjohl)

Canada
Torbay
Newfoundland

destry wrote:

Where in the rules does it say you play treasures differently in earlier sets than this set? I can say with confidence the rules for treasures have never changed.

Bah, whatever, a functional errata to allow for a new powerful card in an expansion is the same. A de facto errata if you will.

Posted Sun Aug 8, 2010 2:01 am
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Drew Spencer

(banyan)

United States
Tucson
Arizona

Posted Sun Aug 8, 2010 2:10 am
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Cameron McKenzie

(MasterDinadan)

United States
Atlanta
Georgia

They could have reproduced the effect of the card without "changing" the way treasures are played, but that would have required unnecessary and somewhat fiddly wording.

Note that they didn't actually change the way treasures are played, just clarified it (it has never actually mattered before this).

The fact is that it's a pretty powerful 5-cost card for deckbuilding which becomes extremely weak when it's time to buy victory cards. There are already many Kingdom cards that fit this description, many of which will work better depending on the interactions available.

As people have pointed out, even if your opponent names Province every time it's played, it still doesn't seem that overpowered. A clever opponent will actually name other Kingdom cards or Gold early in the game to hinder your deck-building opportunities.

Other 5-cost kingdom cards can sometimes have very good interactions with other cards available. If such an interaction exists with Contraband, a competent opponent will prohibit you from buying that other card early in the game when you play Contraband.

Posted Sun Aug 8, 2010 5:08 am
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