Richard H. Berg
United States
South Carolina
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This will be a forum devoted to allowing the Gaming Public (in Geek Form) to watch the playtesting and development of a new Euro-style board game, THE BIG APPLE. The game is a building game (sort of) that recreates the "history" of New York City, without being a history game. We hope.
We have 12 groups of playtesters - The Downtown Dozen - and we are planning/hoping that they (or most) will feel free to offer comments, insights, complaints, whatever - whether they be Good, Bad, or even Ugly - on the ongoing festivities.
You, as readers, can see how this sort of thing works . . . and, if we can get some visuals, how it looks.
I invite any comments from non-testers to the ongoing procedures (as long as all comments are In Re, not ad hominem).
The Downtown Dozen is just starting to get their packets - two of them hope to start playtesting this weekend, and one of the DD has already made up a truly spiffy set of play cards . . .
Hope you enjoy watching it all unfold . . . and let's hope it all leads to some Gaming Fun.
RHB
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Michael G
United States
Pembroke Pines
Florida
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Richard, you should also add the game to the data base so that specific topics in the game can be added. Take the "Add New Game" option of Utilities and just follow the instructions. You even get some geekgold for the effort.
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Richard H. Berg
United States
South Carolina
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Sounds like a plan . . .except that every time i click on "Utilities" nothiong happens. Zippo. Nada . . . definitely a plot.
RHB
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Richard Pardoe
United States
San Ramon
California
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Here is a link the add game page:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/UserCreateItem.php3
Only issue I can see with adding the game at this time is that information might change as the Playtests continue. Granted one can submit corrections to a game entry, these are usually done by the site's admins after someone submits "corrections".
Not that anyone gives a hill of beans about my opinions - I think it would be just fine to keep this thread here and then move it to the game's entry once it is closer to publication.
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Michael G
United States
Pembroke Pines
Florida
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By setting up a game entry, we can upload images and whatever else we like (session reports, etc) to a common place in the archive where they can easily be found. For what it's worth the user who adds a game can also make modifications to the entry. I added "Dangerous Parallel" and later changed the text and added an image. It's not a problem.
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Michael G
United States
Pembroke Pines
Florida
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BergBROG wrote: Sounds like a plan . . .except that every time i click on "Utilities" nothiong happens. Zippo. Nada . . . definitely a plot.
RHB
I don't actually click on Utilities, I just roll my mouse over it and a menu is revealed. Then I click on the add new game option. If the link Richard Pardoe sent doesn't work, I can add it to the database for you and then make any edits you wish to make. Just let me know.
(It's better for you to learn how though, since you make so many games!) ;^)
My cards turned out great by the way. Thanks again to Bob Wilson for the art.
The game looks like a lot of fun. Realistically, I think I can get a few games in next week.
Also, two Saturdays from now I am going to play Big Apple with Aaron Silverman (who is already listed as a playtester - he enjoyed it then) and a couple other friends in WPB.
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Michael G
United States
Pembroke Pines
Florida
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And of course I would send you the geekgold. You need an avatar, man!
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Richard H. Berg
United States
South Carolina
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I need an avatar? Can't use the one i have on Consimworld, huh . . .
Let me know how the game with Aaron S goes . . . and I'm going to try to flip this into the Game section, or whatever . . . give me somethign to do on an overcast Saturday.
RHB
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Michael G
United States
Pembroke Pines
Florida
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Well after you get 22 more geekgold, your Medici avatar can surely be used. You need only 30 gg for an avatar. It should be like a walk in the park for you. You could even post your reviews from the Brog for gg. That should get you about 200 or so - I think each is 3, session reports are 2, uploaded files are 1, and you might get tips.
;^)
-- edit: as I said, a walk in the park! Record time!
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Richard H. Berg
United States
South Carolina
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Thanx to thsoe donating, what, GeekGold? I'll ket it sit for now, as I have all sorts of thigns awaiting my attention . . . but I[m sure it will prove useful shortly.
RHB
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Richard H. Berg
United States
South Carolina
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Well, it wasx rather early in the day, so, with my newly acquired GeekGold I purchased an avatar . . .familiar to all on Consimworld, it's Mantegna's "Carlo de Medici", one of my favorite Uffizi Galleria paintings, and an exact copy (in oil, on canvas) of which hangs in my house . . .
RHB
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Michael G
United States
Pembroke Pines
Florida
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Uffizi is a very cool place. I love Florence (Firenze, right?), even though the one time I went there was marred by the fact my friend's car was stolen. We thought it had just been towed away, but it was borrowed and found quite far away sometime later (after I was already back here), pretty much stripped.
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Mike Pranno
United States
Chardon
Ohio
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I played two four-player games of the Tourist version on Saturday with two completely different groups. I will try to post up some of our comments/questions/concerns on either Monday or Tuesday. Before I do so, I will warn that the game received lukewarm reviews (at best). There are a couple caveats our conclusion. First, I am pretty sure we butchered the Eminent Domain rules quite solidly. I may have read the Tourist version wrong in this regard, but the rule seemed quite different from the NY version. Is this true? Additionally, I didn't read Richard's reponses to my earlier questions until returning home AFTER our two plays. Lastly, first-playings always test to suffer from the "Is it good to do this?" syndrome. And in this game, early missteps have slightly larger consequences as the game progresses.
I will try to post our results soon.
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Richard H. Berg
United States
South Carolina
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I shall take a look at the two Eminent Domain rules . . . and shall wait to see what the comments were.
Lukewarm . . .well, I[ve had games start off with a lot worse. Had to wake up one playtester who dozed off in the initial; playtest of MEDIEVAL.
I would also note that the original version of BIG APPLE was the NatNYer version . . .I did the Tourist version when someone suggested there be an "intro" game.
RHB
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Richard H. Berg
United States
South Carolina
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Mike . . .I looked, again, at the Eminent Domain rules in each version, and i see no difference, other than the use of Politics in the NatNY version.
P{erhaps if you say,if possible, what the problem was i can see what se can do about it . . . that, as well as what elements of BIGAP they seem to find lukewarm . . .
Thanx RHB
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Bruce Jones
United States
Stuart
Florida
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I, also, played the tourist game with my guinea pig group while visiting in Ohio. While the reaction was lukewarm at best like Mike's, when I guggested we try a second time since we spend a bit of time wrangling about the rules, two of the four refused to take part again and a 5th who was watching the last 3 or 4 turns also would not join in. However, they did make suggestions and explained thier reasoning for wanting to move on to something else, which I will sort out. Myself and another member of the Downtown Dozen will be at our regular game club tonight, so I will wait to see how it goes there before I decide what suggestions/questions were valid from the Ohio group.
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Michael G
United States
Pembroke Pines
Florida
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My playtest board has arrived. We will give the game a test or two this weekend.
Thanks!
Michael
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Richard H. Berg
United States
South Carolina
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Bob W asked (elsewhere):
When it comes to population, I can think of four ways the components
could work-out:
1.) A pad of Population sheets, with players keeping score with penci-and-paper
2.) Each player has their own Population "Matt", and place different
valued tiles on it as their population grows and shrinks (the current
system if you use my included Population Counters)
3.) Each player's Population Counters are color-coded, and there is a
separate Population Matt or Map (much larger than the individual
player matts, smaller than the game board), where all the population
makers get placed in common
4.) The main gameboard itself is expanded, sizeable enough to accept
buildings and population counters both
What are people's opinions on these options?
This is the sort of thing we get insight into from playtesting . . . everyone likes different methods of record-keeping. So, le5t us know what you think.
RHB
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Richard H. Berg
United States
South Carolina
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Scott noted (again, off-Geek):
Yes, another track is exactly what the Eurogame community will expect, from what I have seen and in my own opinion.
Probably . . .question is, where? On separate Pop cards for eacvh player . . .or on tracks on the board. that's a lot of track . . .
RHB
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Richard H. Berg
United States
South Carolina
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And another comment:
"When I first read about the population counters, I was thinking of something that would calculate population growth (counting) as well as represent it visually ... i.e. a number of individual pieces packed together into a confined space ... like suggestion #3, below. I was picturing something like the "colonists" on the boat in Puerto Rico. "
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John Burt
Canada
Saskatoon
Saskatchewan
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BergBROG wrote: Bob W asked (elsewhere):
When it comes to population, I can think of four ways the components
could work-out:
1.) A pad of Population sheets, with players keeping score with penci-and-paper
2.) Each player has their own Population "Matt", and place different
valued tiles on it as their population grows and shrinks (the current
system if you use my included Population Counters)
3.) Each player's Population Counters are color-coded, and there is a
separate Population Matt or Map (much larger than the individual
player matts, smaller than the game board), where all the population
makers get placed in common
4.) The main gameboard itself is expanded, sizeable enough to accept
buildings and population counters both
RHB
I like the 3rd option. It makes it easier to judge population between players and would be a little more appealing.
Option 1 is not "bit pretty" and smacks more of a older game like yahtzee.
I don't care for Option 4 because I would rather keep the game itself more accessible for all players. A larger board would require a larger space. If you used a separate map for each, or a separate population map for all to share, these could be placed to one side or even on a side table,
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Bob Wilson
United States
Northampton
Massachusetts
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I think it is important to consider here the differences between the needs of a finished game vs. the needs of a play-test prototype.
Since creating components for a prototype can become costly in short order (in terms of either time, money or both), and since rules can change as a result of the play-test sessions, it the option of using pencil-and-paper makes some sense. But...
Quote: Option 1 is not "bit pretty" and smacks more of a older game like yahtzee.
I do agree, though, that it smacks of "Yatzee", the very game that came to mind when I read the rules.
In helping Richard (game designer) by volunteering some game components, I realized that even with my frugal production method (printing components onto 4"x6" photo paper, most cheaply through a store photo lab), costs can rack-up quickly. The intent is to make the game as appealing in terms of visual and tactile feel as is possible (on a budget), so that the component quality doesn't spoil our test groups' reactions to the game play.
In terms of a finished game, I think options 2.) and 3.) make the most sense... it would depend on the designer's intent.
Obviously, "Population" is public knowledge in the game. But there are various levels of "public knowledge" in any game. Either something (population, money, stocks, etc.) is VERY PUBLIC in that it is EASY for all players to know at a glance what the status is of all other players (perfect information?), or it is comparatively HARD to see a player's status without some concentration or memorization, and therefore is NOT VERY PUBLIC, but still not hidden information.
Richard, my guess is that you meant for Population to be VERY PUBLIC. If this is the case, than option "3" seems the best choice...
Quote: 3.) Each player's Population Counters are color-coded, and there is a
separate Population Matt or Map (much larger than the individual
player matts, smaller than the game board), where all the population
makers get placed in common
Does anyone agree with this?
Bob W.
"LordBobbio"
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Bob Wilson
United States
Northampton
Massachusetts
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Cheaper solution for Polulation option 3
I realized a way for us to use the components I already emailed to the play-test leaders (or to use items on-hand like Poker chips), and go with "Option 3" to have all Population Counters appear on the same map...
Since the game plays with a maximum of 4, we can simply color-code quadrants of each area on the Population Map, and use the existing Population Markers or poker chips or whatever.
So, for instance, "Downtown Manhattan" would be subdivided into quadrants, one each of Red, Yellow, Blue and Green.
The full-size image, suitable for printing, can be found here...
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/fullimage/117547
Simple, I don't know why I didn't think of it before....
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Richard H. Berg
United States
South Carolina
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The Pop Mat Bob W did shoudl do very nicely for playtest purposes . . . altho anyh inout as to who it works, and whether or not players will need something else, is one of the thigns you testers shall let us know.
Yes, Population #s are open for all players . .. but NOT money and Political Points. You should keep that secret.
RHB
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Scott Russell
United States
Clarkston
Michigan
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I'll chime in here, even though I've not tried the game. The question of how to display who has what is a pretty common one.
The color-coded chit/piece on a track is a fairly common approach and whenever possibly, I change it to poker chips representing this information. For example, VP in almost anything with a VP track (Carc, Ticket to Ride, Princes of Florence, for examples). Even when we are using poker chips for money, I lobby for using different colors for VP markers.
It's much easier for me to look at the pile in front of the players rather than seeing blue is ahead, now who is blue?
Part of my antipathy to colored markers on a chart may stem from the fact that I am a bit colorblind. But there are other reasons, too. How many here have been in a disagreeable discussion about whether blue had 42 or 43 VP after the chart got bumped or even when the chit was on the line instead of firmly in the space?
(Added this paragraph in edit)
If adding a bunch of markers is cost prohibitive, I prefer the player mat concept to the chits on a track. It doesn't eliminate all the problems, but does help.
Anyway, just my two cents.
BTW, I was interested in participating in this playtest, but posted on Mr. Berg's orginial list asking for clarification of responsibilities. I wanted to be sure that my group(s) met his needs. I thought a public clarification would keep his mailbox from getting clogged up. So in the future for folks looking for playtesters, I recommend that you include in the call a description of what you are expecting from the playtesters with regard to number of games, number of players, number of different groups, etc.
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