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Subject: Singularity + Bullfrog rss

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mplain
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If the runner moves to another server (ex: R&D) during a run due to Bullfrog or the new criminal program (Copier), what happens after the run is successful?

1. Cards in the original server are trashed.
2. All cards in R&D are trashed - InstaWin!
3. Upgrades in R&D are trashed, but not cards in the deck because they are not considered to be IN the central server.
4. Nothing happens, because upgrades are not IN the central server as well, they are IN THE ROOT of the central server. "IN" anly applies to remotes.
5. Nothing happens, because "If successful..." in Singularity's wording should be read as part of the whole sentence, so "If the run on a remote server is successful..."

If #5 is correct, then there is no problem with the wording on caissa.

Rook has "Click: Host Rook on a piece of ice not hosting a Caïssa. If already hosted...", it should be read as "If already hosted on a piece of ice...".

Concerning #3, I tried looking at other cards for clues. Demolition Run and Ash didn't give any, but Red Herrings says:

Is "from" = "in"? Or is it like, "cards IN a server" but "access FROM server"
 
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Adrian Breuch
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It's #5, same rules as for Sneakdoor Beta
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Alejandro Galaviz
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Yes, #5.
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Adrian Breuch
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mplain wrote:
Rook has "Click: Host Rook on a piece of ice not hosting a Caïssa. If already hosted...", it should be read as "If already hosted on a piece of ice...".
So it seems to be like... there is somehting like Self-referential Language for effects, if the text is on the same card.
 
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mplain
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Zyankalium wrote:
So it seems to be like... there is somehting like Self-referential Language for effects, if the text is on the same card.
I'd say "in the same line", not "on the same card". Like in MtG, where everything in one line is considered to be one effect, and state-based actions are not checked in between.


Ok then, what if I play Singularity on one remote but am redirected mid-run to another remote? Will I trash all cards in that other remote, or not, because it's not the remote I originally initiated a run on?
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Alejandro Galaviz
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As long as it is another remote that you could still trash all the cards in that server, providing the run is successful in that new server.
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Will Frank
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I thought the issue with Caissa cards was the language on Pawn:

"Whenever you make a successful run, move Pawn to the piece of ice directly after the current ice hosting Pawn, if able; otherwise, trash Pawn instead and install a Caïssa program from your grip or heap, ignoring all costs."

So, I install Pawn on the table, and don't host it. Then I make a successful run. Pawn says to move it to the next piece of ice from the one hosting Pawn--which I can't, there isn't any. So we go to "otherwise," and hey! Free install.

So it was changed to say that the "whenever you make..." language only triggers if Pawn is hosted.
 
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mplain
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scifantasy wrote:
I thought the issue with Caissa cards was the language on Pawn

No, that's another matter, FFG already gave errata to Pawn.

I'm talking about this.
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Andrew Keddie
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mplain wrote:
scifantasy wrote:
I thought the issue with Caissa cards was the language on Pawn

No, that's another matter, FFG already gave errata to Pawn.

I'm talking about this.


As-written, it's only Rook that has any problem with Shahrazad, but I expect they'll probable all be errata'd to 'if currently hosted on ICE'.
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Will Frank
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mplain wrote:
scifantasy wrote:
I thought the issue with Caissa cards was the language on Pawn

No, that's another matter, FFG already gave errata to Pawn.

I'm talking about this.


Oh.

Hm. I see the problem, but: 1) the logic of "same paragraph" is good, and 2) it shouldn't come up, as all the other Caissa programs only have any point if hosted on ice. Breaking subroutines on host ice, reducing host ice strength, and increasing rez cost of host ice. It's just that Pawn's ability is different, so it needed fixing. But maybe FFG will similarly errata the others once they release.
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Ben Finkel
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xpiredsodapop wrote:
As long as it is another remote that you could still trash all the cards in that server, providing the run is successful in that new server.


I'm extremely agnostic about this question, as just above we've demonstrated that Sneakdoor Beta/Indexing/Account Siphon/what have you all fail if you get deflected from the initially selected server (though, to be fair, many don't make sense unless you would access cards from the intended server). I think this is compelling enough evidence that you would not get to activate Singularity if you got deflected to another remote server.
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mplain
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scifantasy wrote:
Hm. I see the problem, but: 2) it shouldn't come up, as all the other Caissa programs only have any point if hosted on ice.

Well, it will come if you want to install your Rooks and Bishops on Shahrazad first to gain a credit, then host caissa on ice.

Azeltir wrote:
I'm extremely agnostic about this question, as just above we've demonstrated that Sneakdoor Beta/Indexing/Account Siphon/what have you all fail if you get deflected from the initially selected server (though, to be fair, many don't make sense unless you would access cards from the intended server). I think this is compelling enough evidence that you would not get to activate Singularity if you got deflected to another remote server.

Sneakdoor/Siphon/Indexing all mention a specific type of server. Run is successful, check: is it Archives/HQ/R&D? No, it is a remote. FALSE, no effect.
Demolition Run: you initiated a run on HQ, but ended up on R&D. Run is successful, check: is it HQ or R&D? TRUE, blow stuff up!
Singularity: you got teleported mid-run to another remote. Run is successful, check: is it a remote? TRUE, blow stuff up!
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Alejandro Galaviz
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Agreed with mplain above. It's still a successful run on a remote just a different one.

If you can provide reasoning why the above is not true I'd like to see it.
 
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Steve Rogers
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Because distinct servers are distinct targets. "A remote server" refers to a particular server, just as "HQ" refers to a particular server. It's just more difficult to parse because remotes don't have distinct names.

When a card is played that affects a remote, you are defining the target.

ICE that is protecting a particular remote does not trigger on all remotes.
An asset in a particular remote is not accessible in all remotes.
A run on a particular remote is not a run on all remotes.

If the card said "make a run on ANY remote server", it would be stating that multiple servers (all remotes) are valid targets (like Demo's "make a run on R&D or HQ"). Then I'd agree with mplain.

If the card said "trash all cards in THAT server" i'd feel 100% confident that it referred to one distinct server.

Unfortunately neither of those things are the case. From what it DOES say, my argument is for the most restrictive interpretation.
 
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