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Steve Espinosa
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If you look at my past on BGG, I am not a huge one for drama and I love to cheer on/pledge to great KS and that is why I pledged to the FP expansion. I missed the base game and bought it retail. My family has such a good time with it, when the expansion KS went live, I had to be apart of it. I even suggested the rescue dog (although all rules credit goes to someone else) love it or hate it. I was happy and positive all campaign and then my package came in the mail. When my game came in, there were multiple errors and so I posted about it on KS:

I got my copy yesterday and even though Flash point is in my top 5 games, I ended up being pretty disappointed. The first thing I noticed was that all my window pieces/doors are off center, but although jarring, I can get over that. My biggest issue is that I cannot use my new tokens that are done in the old art style (non-realistic)with my current copy of Flash point(2nd edition). It seems that quality control was sloppy because all the new special victims/poi and what not are all cut/punched the opposite direction of the current edition. So when you put two of these "?" on the board next to each other, the difference is very obvious.
If you use all new stuff (realistic) then you have no problem, But if you have no interest in the realistic artwork (like me)m you are pretty much out of luck. The only solution I have seen is to mix the two together, but imho that's just not acceptable. This is something that should have been caught in quality control. So unless Travis is going to fix this mistake....which I am not confident on (but I hope), a lot of my KS exclusives are pretty much worthless to me. Basically makes me wish I would have saved money and picked the game up retail....I guess on the bright-side, by participating in the KS I was able to suggest the rescue dog...which I am happy made it into game.

I then noticed that Travis had provided an Email and sent him an email after noticing that there were a lot of BGG threads popping up with the same issues I had:

Hello Travis. Flash Point is by far one of my favorite games, top 5 actually. It is even typically the first co-op game I show friends and family. I have always felt good about introducing this game to new people and trying to help it flourish in what little way I can. When I pledged to the KS for this expansion, I was extremely excited. That said, I am very disappointed in the quality control for what I received from KS and my excitement was completely deflated upon opening the box.

The first problem I noticed was that the folds in my boards were heavily creased/cracked after unfolding the board for the first time. I have only ever seen such a thing in games that I have played into the ground or extremely cheap quality products. Next I started going through my components and there were color differences, printing that was not centered, and worst of all the "?" tokens are 100% incompatible with previous versions of the game. These were all punched on the incorrect side, which makes them easily distinguished from the old ones. I have no interest in realistic victims, but now my only choice is to play with them or not to use any of the new "?" tokens. This is an obvious quality control issue that we should not be stuck with. After seeing all this I was completely deflated and just set my box aside. There could be more wrong, but at that point I was done. What's even worse is that I also backed Coup and again every piece of money was printed off center....

I really hope you address this because there are others who have posted and shared the same concerns/frustrations. I have rated this expansion a 1 on BGG and have stated the lack of quality as the reason. If you decide to fix these issues, I would be glad to change that and would be delighted that you acknowledge the mistake and are willing to take ownership and fix it. If you decide just to cut your losses, then unfortunately this is the last time we will do business on principle alone. I cannot in good conscience recommend one of your games to people I know, if issues like this go unresolved. Thank you for your time and I hope that you do the right thing.

Now I finally get a response to that email:

Steve - I have deleted your messages, sorry I don't respond to messages with threats. Your dollars doesn't buy you the right to be treat me that way, and frankly I don't want you, or others with the same attitude as you to back my projects. At this point I consider our relationship to be over.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I responded shocked that I had somehow threatened someone for the first time in my life and that someone felt the need to break all ties because of it. I guess my last 2 lines (not buying his products anymore if he did not want to fix the issue) has afforded him the right to ignore damaged product? convenient. I am amazed right now...I guess people can judge my hideous threat for themselves and decide if I threatened him like some villain or simply expressed a desire to not buy your products if valid issues were not fixed. Maybe telling someone you will not give them your money anymore for bad product is a threat? but I am personally lost.
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Nicholas Vitek
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Re: So Travis of Indie Boards hates me and I am still in shock
To be fair, the extortion attempt probably rubbed him the wrong way.
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The Compulsive Completist
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Re: So Travis of Indie Boards hates me and I am still in shock
I understand your concerns but I could see your message as threatening.
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Steve Espinosa
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Re: So Travis of Indie Boards hates me and I am still in shock
Nich wrote:
To be fair, the extortion attempt probably rubbed him the wrong way.


This is extortion?

I really hope you address this because there are others who have posted and shared the same concerns/frustrations. I have rated this expansion a 1 on BGG and have stated the lack of quality as the reason. If you decide to fix these issues, I would be glad to change that and would be delighted that you acknowledge the mistake and are willing to take ownership and fix it. If you decide just to cut your losses, then unfortunately this is the last time we will do business on principle alone. I cannot in good conscience recommend one of your games to people I know, if issues like this go unresolved. Thank you for your time and I hope that you do the right thing.
-----------------------------------------------------
Lets see. I informed him I rated his game a 1 because the quality that I received was bad. that is just a fact. then I let him know I would not mind raising it if valid issues were fixed. this is also a fact. I love the game and the game is not my issue or the reason i rated it low. then I tell him that if said valid issues are not fixed, I do not intend to promote to friends his games or buy them. This is after days of silence from him. I am lost on how this is extortion, especially since I have damaged product and he is the one with my money,but respect your opinion.
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William Crispin
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Re: So Travis of Indie Boards hates me and I am still in shock
That would be the tin inner ear syndrome. It is where you have no idea how you sound to other people.
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Nathan Berndt
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Re: So Travis of Indie Boards hates me and I am still in shock
For what it's worth, I had a recent email trail with Travis where I was trying to figure out when the 2nd Story expansion would be available again in stores. He kept replying that it should be in stores and to harass the stores themselves. I eventually did and CSI said their warehouse insisted they had nothing in stock. Even faced with that response he still continued to insist it should be in stock. I eventually said that if the expansion wasn't made available that I would have to take my gaming dollars elsewhere. His response was "good riddance, you are the type of customer that I am glad to be rid of", which I found strange since I was trying so hard to find his product to purchase. If he keeps up at this rate, he will eventually run out of customers.
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C L
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Re: So Travis of Indie Boards hates me and I am still in shock
Yep Steve, your message didn't come across very well. No offense, but it sounded immature and whiny. Kind of like a kid throwing a temper-tantrum because he didn't get his way.
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Steve Espinosa
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Re: So Travis of Indie Boards hates me and I am still in shock
With a few of the responses above, I guess I am wrong and if that is the case I am deeply sorry. I am no way too proud to admit if I am wrong. It was not my intention to threaten anyone and obviously by my post, I did not realize that I had. I thought I was just honestly giving my opinion and telling him my intentions, which I did do. Goes to show that text alone makes it really hard to determine someone's intentions/emotions. A simple response from him could have cleared it up...But now it seems...I am stuck with him having my money and me having a damaged product. Just doesn't feel fair to me....
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Mike Gingold
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Re: So Travis of Indie Boards hates me and I am still in shock
Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with the original poster's email. I don't believe it is "extortion" especially when the first half of the email is praising the game.

I'm horrified to hear how Travis has responded to the original poster and the other poster asking about the status of his game expansions in stores.
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Steve Espinosa
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Re: So Travis of Indie Boards hates me and I am still in shock
clinz30 wrote:
Yep Steve, your message didn't come across very well. No offense, but it sounded immature and whiny. Kind of like a kid throwing a temper-tantrum because he didn't get his way.


I respect that opinion, I don't see it, but thats fine. But to be clear, it was not about getting my way. It was about me giving money and receiving a damaged product, which he has made clear he will never fix.
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William Crispin
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Re: So Travis of Indie Boards hates me and I am still in shock
fubarbox wrote:
With a few of the responses above, I guess I am wrong and if that is the case I am deeply sorry. I am no way too proud to admit if I am wrong. It was not my intention to threaten anyone and obviously by my post, I did not realize that I had. I thought I was just honestly giving my opinion and telling him my intentions, which I did do. Goes to show that text alone makes it really hard to determine someone's intentions/emotions. A simple response from him could have cleared it up... but I guess because I was upset at the poor product I received and sent what all I can say might be a mildly offensive email in some way...I am stuck with him having my money and me having a damaged product. Just doesn't feel fair to me....


I do not think the response to you was great customer service either. It is easy for text conversations without vocal/facial inflections to go off the road quickly.
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The Compulsive Completist
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Re: So Travis of Indie Boards hates me and I am still in shock
Don't feel like we have to pick sides. There is a good chance neither of them handled the situation in the best way.

fubarbox wrote:
With a few of the responses above, I guess I am wrong and if that is the case I am deeply sorry. I am no way too proud to admit if I am wrong. It was not my intention to threaten anyone and obviously by my post, I did not realize that I had. I thought I was just honestly giving my opinion and telling him my intentions, which I did do. Goes to show that text alone makes it really hard to determine someone's intentions/emotions. A simple response from him could have cleared it up...But now it seems...I am stuck with him having my money and me having a damaged product. Just doesn't feel fair to me....


Well said.
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Travis Worthington
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Re: So Travis of Indie Boards hates me and I am still in shock
Steve - you forget to mention that you had already rated the game a 1, with similar negative/threatening/whiny comments here on BGG, as well as posting in the comments section of the kickstarter page before sending me a note outlining your issues.

Sorry, you need to grow up - treat this as a painful lesson in maturity and do better next time. Getting a game through kickstarter isn't a free pass to be an ass.

Edit - some may think that this post is calling Steve an "ass" directly, it isn't. The comment, which I continue to stand by is that supporting a kickstarter doesn't mean that the supporter has free reign to treat the project creator with disdain and ignore social norms of interaction.

Had Steve simply asked for a replacement pieces then they would have been provided, he didn't - he had already taken retaliatory action, and threatened to (and did) take further such action unless I meet his terms. In my mind this goes beyond my principles and I am in the fortunate position to be able to live by my principles, which in this case means that I don't have to be treated poorly just because someone has given me money for a game.

I am refunding Steve's money. It would be cheaper, and easier to do otherwise but its not the easy path that I choose to take.
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Mike Gingold
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Re: So Travis of Indie Boards hates me and I am still in shock
T Worthington wrote:
Steve - you forget to mention that you had already rated the game a 1, with similar negative/threatening/whiny comments here on BGG, as well as posting in the comments section of the kickstarter page before sending me a note outlining your issues.

Sorry, you need to grow up - treat this as a painful lesson in maturity and do better next time. Getting a game through kickstarter isn't a free pass to be an ass.




I really don't see anything wrong with complaining in the comments section of the kickstarter page. Why should he have to send you a private message for an error that affects everyone that did the kickstarter? It's been a while since I read the original thread on the bgg regarding the counters being punched the opposite way but if I recall correctly, you never responded to the thread regarding a the obvious problem.

Sorry, running a game company does not give you the right to be an ass either. You just lost a customer.
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Steve Espinosa
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Re: So Travis of Indie Boards hates me and I am still in shock
T Worthington wrote:
Steve - you forget to mention that you had already rated the game a 1, with similar negative/threatening/whiny comments here on BGG, as well as posting in the comments section of the kickstarter page before sending me a note outlining your issues.

Sorry, you need to grow up - treat this as a painful lesson in maturity and do better next time. Getting a game through kickstarter isn't a free pass to be an ass.



Thanks for the response. If you read my post, I did mention and even copy/pasted my KS response. I also informed you in the email that I had rated it a 1 and would change that if my product was fixed, because I love the game. I tried nothing to be secretive. I really wish you would take a higher road than dishing out insults and rubbing it in that I have a damaged product that you will not fix. But thank you for stopping by.
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reaching out from the in-between spaces...
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Re: So Travis of Indie Boards hates me and I am still in shock
Just to be clear, has there been a response to the misprinted "?" counters or no?

Jorune
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Steve Espinosa
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Re: So Travis of Indie Boards hates me and I am still in shock
Jorune wrote:
Just to be clear, has there been a response to the misprinted "?" counters or no?

Jorune

Not officially, no
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Travis Worthington
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Re: So Travis of Indie Boards hates me and I am still in shock
Mikeg99 wrote:
T Worthington wrote:
Steve - you forget to mention that you had already rated the game a 1, with similar negative/threatening/whiny comments here on BGG, as well as posting in the comments section of the kickstarter page before sending me a note outlining your issues.

Sorry, you need to grow up - treat this as a painful lesson in maturity and do better next time. Getting a game through kickstarter isn't a free pass to be an ass.




I really don't see anything wrong with complaining in the comments section of the kickstarter page. Why should he have to send you a private message for an error that affects everyone that did the kickstarter? It's been a while since I read the original thread on the bgg regarding the counters being punched the opposite way but if I recall correctly, you never responded to the thread regarding a the obvious problem.

Sorry, running a game company does not give you the right to be an ass either. You just lost a customer.


Sorry if you think that responding to personal attacks and threats in a public forum is not something that I can do as a game publisher. Frankly have the "customer service" role in one person company has open my eyes to just how abusive and condescending people can be. I have a new respect, and a lot of sympathy for people that have to do this for a living, especially in situations where they can't afford to stand up for themselves when berated and badgered as I frequently encounter.

Had Steve simply asked for replacement pieces I would have sent them, just has I have for many others with similar requests.
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Scott Hill
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Re: So Travis of Indie Boards hates me and I am still in shock
Jorune wrote:
Just to be clear, has there been a response to the misprinted "?" counters or no?

Jorune

There is sort of a response in the promo token rules.

Make of what it says what you will.
 
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Mike Gingold
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Re: So Travis of Indie Boards hates me and I am still in shock
T Worthington wrote:
Mikeg99 wrote:
T Worthington wrote:
Steve - you forget to mention that you had already rated the game a 1, with similar negative/threatening/whiny comments here on BGG, as well as posting in the comments section of the kickstarter page before sending me a note outlining your issues.

Sorry, you need to grow up - treat this as a painful lesson in maturity and do better next time. Getting a game through kickstarter isn't a free pass to be an ass.




I really don't see anything wrong with complaining in the comments section of the kickstarter page. Why should he have to send you a private message for an error that affects everyone that did the kickstarter? It's been a while since I read the original thread on the bgg regarding the counters being punched the opposite way but if I recall correctly, you never responded to the thread regarding a the obvious problem.

Sorry, running a game company does not give you the right to be an ass either. You just lost a customer.


Sorry if you think that responding to personal attacks and threats in a public forum is not something that I can do as a game publisher. Frankly have the "customer service" role in one person company has open my eyes to just how abusive and condescending people can be. I have a new respect, and a lot of sympathy for people that have to do this for a living, especially in situations where they can't afford to stand up for themselves when berated and badgered as I frequently encounter.

Had Steve simply asked for replacement pieces I would have sent them, just has I have for many others with similar requests.


I have no problems with you responding to public posts. I would encourage it. However, you did not respond... You made an attack against the original poster. You are entitled to your opinion but I do not see his email as threatening. People can agree to disagree on that. However, I think it speaks volumes that you would stoop to the original posters level (assuming you believe he was being immature and whinny as you put it).

I'm a little surprised that you will send out new counters to people that request it but you did not bother to post that on the BGG thread where people were mentioning the new counters were die cut the opposite of the old ones. This printing error affected everyone in the KS that received the new counters. Everyone should get replacements.
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Re: So Travis of Indie Boards hates me and I am still in shock
T Worthington wrote:
Mikeg99 wrote:
T Worthington wrote:
Steve - you forget to mention that you had already rated the game a 1, with similar negative/threatening/whiny comments here on BGG, as well as posting in the comments section of the kickstarter page before sending me a note outlining your issues.

Sorry, you need to grow up - treat this as a painful lesson in maturity and do better next time. Getting a game through kickstarter isn't a free pass to be an ass.




I really don't see anything wrong with complaining in the comments section of the kickstarter page. Why should he have to send you a private message for an error that affects everyone that did the kickstarter? It's been a while since I read the original thread on the bgg regarding the counters being punched the opposite way but if I recall correctly, you never responded to the thread regarding a the obvious problem.

Sorry, running a game company does not give you the right to be an ass either. You just lost a customer.


Sorry if you think that responding to personal attacks and threats in a public forum is not something that I can do as a game publisher. Frankly have the "customer service" role in one person company has open my eyes to just how abusive and condescending people can be. I have a new respect, and a lot of sympathy for people that have to do this for a living, especially in situations where they can't afford to stand up for themselves when berated and badgered as I frequently encounter.

Had Steve simply asked for replacement pieces I would have sent them, just has I have for many others with similar requests.



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Re: So Travis of Indie Boards hates me and I am still in shock
T Worthington wrote:
Had Steve simply asked for replacement pieces I would have sent them, just has I have for many others with similar requests.

Are you saying, Travis, that you will replace the incorrectly punch POI markers for anyone that politely asks you for replacements?
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Re: So Travis of Indie Boards hates me and I am still in shock
Mikeg99 wrote:
T Worthington wrote:
Mikeg99 wrote:
T Worthington wrote:
Steve - you forget to mention that you had already rated the game a 1, with similar negative/threatening/whiny comments here on BGG, as well as posting in the comments section of the kickstarter page before sending me a note outlining your issues.

Sorry, you need to grow up - treat this as a painful lesson in maturity and do better next time. Getting a game through kickstarter isn't a free pass to be an ass.




I really don't see anything wrong with complaining in the comments section of the kickstarter page. Why should he have to send you a private message for an error that affects everyone that did the kickstarter? It's been a while since I read the original thread on the bgg regarding the counters being punched the opposite way but if I recall correctly, you never responded to the thread regarding a the obvious problem.

Sorry, running a game company does not give you the right to be an ass either. You just lost a customer.


Sorry if you think that responding to personal attacks and threats in a public forum is not something that I can do as a game publisher. Frankly have the "customer service" role in one person company has open my eyes to just how abusive and condescending people can be. I have a new respect, and a lot of sympathy for people that have to do this for a living, especially in situations where they can't afford to stand up for themselves when berated and badgered as I frequently encounter.

Had Steve simply asked for replacement pieces I would have sent them, just has I have for many others with similar requests.


I have no problems with you responding to public posts. I would encourage it. However, you did not respond... You made an attack against the original poster. You are entitled to your opinion but I do not see his email as threatening. People can agree to disagree on that. However, I think it speaks volumes that you would stoop to the original posters level (assuming you believe he was being immature and whinny as you put it).

I'm a little surprised that you will send out new counters to people that request it but you did not bother to post that on the BGG thread where people were mentioning the new counters were die cut the opposite of the old ones. This printing error affected everyone in the KS that received the new counters. Everyone should get replacements.




I have rated it a one and will tell everyone not to buy it if you choose not to address it? Come on. A simple, "hello, here's my problem can you help me" is not that hard to ask of a person. I'd be pissed too.
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Travis Worthington
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Re: So Travis of Indie Boards hates me and I am still in shock
Mikeg99 wrote:
T Worthington wrote:
Mikeg99 wrote:
T Worthington wrote:
Steve - you forget to mention that you had already rated the game a 1, with similar negative/threatening/whiny comments here on BGG, as well as posting in the comments section of the kickstarter page before sending me a note outlining your issues.

Sorry, you need to grow up - treat this as a painful lesson in maturity and do better next time. Getting a game through kickstarter isn't a free pass to be an ass.




I really don't see anything wrong with complaining in the comments section of the kickstarter page. Why should he have to send you a private message for an error that affects everyone that did the kickstarter? It's been a while since I read the original thread on the bgg regarding the counters being punched the opposite way but if I recall correctly, you never responded to the thread regarding a the obvious problem.

Sorry, running a game company does not give you the right to be an ass either. You just lost a customer.


Sorry if you think that responding to personal attacks and threats in a public forum is not something that I can do as a game publisher. Frankly have the "customer service" role in one person company has open my eyes to just how abusive and condescending people can be. I have a new respect, and a lot of sympathy for people that have to do this for a living, especially in situations where they can't afford to stand up for themselves when berated and badgered as I frequently encounter.

Had Steve simply asked for replacement pieces I would have sent them, just has I have for many others with similar requests.


I have no problems with you responding to public posts. I would encourage it. However, you did not respond... You made an attack against the original poster. You are entitled to your opinion but I do not see his email as threatening. People can agree to disagree on that. However, I think it speaks a lot that you would stoop to the original posters level (assuming you believe he was being immature and whinny as you put it).

I'm a little surprised that you will send out new counters to people that request it but you did not bother to post that on the BGG thread where people were mentioning the new counters were die cut the opposite of the old ones. This printing error affected everyone in the KS that received the new counters. Everyone should get replacements.


Sorry I did not say what you think I said. The POI counters as provided in the kickstarter rewards are not being replaced. But those that are mis-aligned (ie, not centered) would be replaced.

The counters as provided in the kickstarter are 100% usable as is, following the directions outlined in the promo rules as has already been pointed out in a post above.
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Re: So Travis of Indie Boards hates me and I am still in shock
T Worthington wrote:
Mikeg99 wrote:
T Worthington wrote:
Mikeg99 wrote:
T Worthington wrote:
Steve - you forget to mention that you had already rated the game a 1, with similar negative/threatening/whiny comments here on BGG, as well as posting in the comments section of the kickstarter page before sending me a note outlining your issues.

Sorry, you need to grow up - treat this as a painful lesson in maturity and do better next time. Getting a game through kickstarter isn't a free pass to be an ass.




I really don't see anything wrong with complaining in the comments section of the kickstarter page. Why should he have to send you a private message for an error that affects everyone that did the kickstarter? It's been a while since I read the original thread on the bgg regarding the counters being punched the opposite way but if I recall correctly, you never responded to the thread regarding a the obvious problem.

Sorry, running a game company does not give you the right to be an ass either. You just lost a customer.


Sorry if you think that responding to personal attacks and threats in a public forum is not something that I can do as a game publisher. Frankly have the "customer service" role in one person company has open my eyes to just how abusive and condescending people can be. I have a new respect, and a lot of sympathy for people that have to do this for a living, especially in situations where they can't afford to stand up for themselves when berated and badgered as I frequently encounter.

Had Steve simply asked for replacement pieces I would have sent them, just has I have for many others with similar requests.


I have no problems with you responding to public posts. I would encourage it. However, you did not respond... You made an attack against the original poster. You are entitled to your opinion but I do not see his email as threatening. People can agree to disagree on that. However, I think it speaks a lot that you would stoop to the original posters level (assuming you believe he was being immature and whinny as you put it).

I'm a little surprised that you will send out new counters to people that request it but you did not bother to post that on the BGG thread where people were mentioning the new counters were die cut the opposite of the old ones. This printing error affected everyone in the KS that received the new counters. Everyone should get replacements.


Sorry I did not say what you think I said. The POI counters as provided in the kickstarter rewards are not being replaced. But those that are mis-aligned (ie, not centered) would be replaced.

The counters as provided in the kickstarter are 100% usable as is, following the directions outlined in the promo rules as has already been pointed out in a post above.


Thank you for the clarification.
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